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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27673514 - 02/25/22 08:06 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I don't think there is any point to try to argue with Falcon or Ecstatic that we didn't promise to not expand NATO eastward. They both think that the fact that any such agreement was made without the OK of the President of the United States (Clinton or HW Bush) is not relevant.



I just quoted the promise above.  I agree with you that it wasn't put in a treaty, and we don't know if it had the OK of the President, but the promise was made.

Russia learned that US promises can't be trusted, and agreements need to be put in writing in the future.




We do know it didn't have the OK of the President. I have been checking and rechecking that since this debate started.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27673530 - 02/25/22 08:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 3
    #27673542 - 02/25/22 08:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

This is a really interesting interview of Scott Ritter by Richard Medhurst.  Probably too long for most here to watch, but Scott really has an interesting perspective on the conflict. 

I'm posting this because he talks about America's assurances not to expand NATO Eastward (from 33:27-34:11).



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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673560 - 02/25/22 09:11 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Falcon not gonna lie man you're comin off a real clown bozo with these posts.. Totally off the mark with every single thing you've said in here. And that's comin the most anti-west dude around...


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Near Dylan] * 2
    #27673569 - 02/25/22 09:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Can you please give an example of something I said that's "off the mark" so I understand?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27673578 - 02/25/22 09:32 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This is a really interesting interview of Scott Ritter by Richard Medhurst.  Probably too long for most here to watch, but Scott really has an interesting perspective on the conflict. 

I'm posting this because he talks about America's assurances not to expand NATO Eastward (from 33:27-34:11).






Ya know, that's probably the most logical commentary so far. Good video :thumbup:

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 3
    #27673590 - 02/25/22 09:51 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for watching!  There's a few here (you, The Ecstatic, qman, and a few others) who are interested in more than what the mainstream media gives them.  :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27673608 - 02/25/22 10:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Scott Ritter was brutally honest and made a lot of sense.

Always good value having a robust discussion with you Falcon  :cool: :thumbup:

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27673621 - 02/25/22 10:37 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Likewise my friend!  :cool::thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673622 - 02/25/22 10:39 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

... the US orchestrated an unconstitutional coup against Ukraine's democratically elected president and installed a US friendly president.  The pro-Russian areas immediately chose to secede.




An ABC article from 2013 = "John McCain Blames Obama for Emboldening Russian Bullying in Ukraine"

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/12/john-mccain-blames-obama-for-emboldening-russian-bullying-in-ukraine

"For us to believe that Vladimir Putin is going to give up Ukraine to the West without a fight is foolishness"
John McCain

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #27673665 - 02/25/22 11:41 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I'm curious what your thoughts are here.

That McCain knew the US was getting ready to launch a coup in Ukraine to take over the country's leadership? (McCain played a big role in the coup)

That Putin didn't put up a good fight at the time the coup finally happened?

Or???


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OnlinePsilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673667 - 02/25/22 11:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Can you please give an example of something I said that's "off the mark" so I understand?




    Your supporting the largest land invasion in Europe since ww2.


--------------------

Edited by Psilynut2 (02/25/22 11:51 PM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 3
    #27673700 - 02/26/22 12:23 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Can you point to the post where I support it?  I'm simply explaining it, because ignorant people think Russia just invaded Ukraine for no reason.

Here's another good explanation from Ben Norton who was interviewed by Lee Camp:



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Onlinekoods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27673829 - 02/26/22 04:28 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Putin doesn't want Ukraine for Russia, that's mainstream news propaganda.  The country is way too far in the gutter for him to want to support it.  The only reason he would take Ukraine is if the US continues to refuse to come to the negotiating table, as we are now.

Biden has ‘no plans’ to talk to Putin




Wow this is really pathetic. Invade a sovereign country. Commit war crimes. Just because somebody won’t pay attention to your maniacal needs.

You are either completely brainwashed or a GRU troll farm employee


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Onlinekoods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673832 - 02/26/22 04:36 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm curious what your thoughts are here.

That McCain knew the US was getting ready to launch a coup in Ukraine to take over the country's leadership? (McCain played a big role in the coup)

That Putin didn't put up a good fight at the time the coup finally happened?

Or???




Why would it be Putin’s job to defend Ukraine from a coup? You have a very selective opinion about countries getting involved in foreign conflicts.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673850 - 02/26/22 05:21 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.




https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078929982/a-look-at-the-debate-over-nato-expansion-eastward-thats-at-the-heart-of-conflict
This one said James Baker floated the idea to Gorbachev in return for German unification. Gorbachev said he would think about it. When Baker got home HW Bush said no way.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OnlinePsilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27674023 - 02/26/22 09:50 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Can you point to the post where I support it?  I'm simply explaining it, because ignorant people think Russia just invaded Ukraine for no reason.




    You want me to reword my shit ? Ok.

    You are defending Putin's decision to launch the largest land invasion since Hitler .


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #27674073 - 02/26/22 10:45 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

This statement originally appeared in Russian on avtonom.org, a media project that grew out of the libertarian communist network Autonomous Action.


Against Annexations and Imperial Aggression

Yesterday, on February 21, an extraordinary meeting of the Russian Security Council was held. As part of this theatrical act, Putin forced his closest servants to publicly “ask” him to recognize the independence of the so-called “people’s republics” of the Luhansk People’s Republic [LPR] and Donetsk People’s Republic [DPR] in eastern Ukraine.

It is quite obvious that this is a step towards the further annexation of these territories by Russia—no matter how it is formalized (or not formalized) legally. In fact, the Kremlin ceases to consider the LPR and DPR part of Ukraine and finally makes them its protectorate. “First the recognition of independence, then annexation”: this sequence was already worked out in 2014 in Crimea. This is also clear from Naryshkin’s stupid reservations at the meeting of the Security Council (“Yes, I support the entry of these territories into the Russian Federation “). Since the meeting, as it turned out, was broadcast on tape [rather than live], and these “reservations” were not cut out, but left in—the hint is clear.

In an “appeal to the people” that same evening, Putin seemed to “agree” with these requests and announced the recognition of the LPR and DPR as independent states. In fact, he said the following: “We are taking a piece of the Donbass, and if Ukraine rocks the boat, then let it blame itself, we don’t consider it a state at all, so we’ll take even more.” According to Putin’s decree, Russian troops are already entering the territory of the LPR and DPR. This is a clear gesture of threat towards the rest of Ukraine and especially towards the parts of the Lugansk and Donetsk regions still controlled by Ukraine. This is the actual occupation [in the sense that until now, Luhansk and Donetsk were only occupied by proxy].

We do not want to stand up for any states. We are anarchists and we are against any borders between nations. But we are against this annexation, because it only establishes new borders, and the decision on this is made solely by the authoritarian leader—Vladimir Putin. This is an act of imperialist aggression by Russia. We have no illusions about the Ukrainian state, but it is clear to us that it is not the main aggressor in this story—this is not a confrontation between two equal evils. First of all, this is an attempt by the Russian authoritarian government to solve its internal problems through a “small victorious war and the accumulation of lands” [a reference to Ivan III].

It is quite probable that the Kremlin regime will stage some kind of spectacle of a “referendum” on the annexed lands. Such performances already took place in the DPR and LPR in 2014, but not even Moscow recognized their results. Now, apparently, Putin has decided to change that. Of course, there can be no talk of any “free and secret voting” in these territories—they are under the control of militarized gangs completely dependent on Moscow. Those who were opposed to these gangs and against integration with Russia were either killed or forced to emigrate. Thus, any “referendum on the return of Donbass like a lost ship to its native harbor” will be a propaganda lie. The residents of Donbass will be able to formulate their decision only when the troops of all states—and first of all the Russian Federation—leave these territories.

The recognition and annexation of the DPR and LPR will not bring anything good to the inhabitants of Russia itself.

First, in any case, this will lead to the militarization of all spheres of life, even greater international isolation of Russia, sanctions and a decline in general well-being. Restoring the destroyed infrastructure and taking the “people’s republics” into the state budget will not be free, either—both will cost billions of rubles that could otherwise be spent on education and medicine. Have no doubt: the yachts of the Russian oligarchs will not become smaller, but everyone else will begin to live worse.

Second, the likely aggravation of the armed confrontation with Ukraine will mean more dead and wounded soldiers and civilians, more destroyed cities and villages, more blood. Even if this conflict does not escalate into a world war, Putin’s imperial fantasies are not worth a single life.

Third, this will mean the further spread of the so-called “Russian world”: a crazy combination of neoliberal oligarchy, rigid centralized power, and patriarchal imperial propaganda. This consequence is not as obvious as the rise in the price of sausages and the sanctions on smartphones—but in the long run, it is even more dangerous.

We urge you to counter the Kremlin’s aggression by any means you see fit. Against the seizure of territories under any pretext, against sending the Russian army to the Donbass, against militarization. And ultimately, against the war. Take to the streets, spread the word, talk to the people around you—you know what to do. Do not be silent. Take action. Even a small screw can jam the gears of a death machine.

Against all borders, against all empires, against all wars!

-Autonomous Action





Translation: “No War Between Nations! No Peace Between Classes!”


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/26/22 11:00 AM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27674095 - 02/26/22 11:15 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.




https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078929982/a-look-at-the-debate-over-nato-expansion-eastward-thats-at-the-heart-of-conflict
This one said James Baker floated the idea to Gorbachev in return for German unification. Gorbachev said he would think about it. When Baker got home HW Bush said no way.



Fair enough.  Did the US ever tell Russia we're backing down on our promise?  Russia doesn't seem to think so.
They now know they should never trust the US again.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleArchStanton66
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27674096 - 02/26/22 11:15 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Hell yeah, I think Zelensky staying in Kyiv and the west now seeing how hard Ukrainians are willing to fight (even if they do lose Kyiv eventually) is bolstering NATOs resolve. Seeing Germany now trying to find a way to cut them out of SWIFT, which surprised me a little since Germany and Italy were the largest opponents to that at the onset of the invasion.

Not sure why Putin sent in the B team here, but the ensuing guerrilla style fighting by the Ukrainians would probably crater what morale they have at the moment over time.

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