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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: bukkake]
    #27690676 - 03/11/22 08:13 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

collapse has been operating in an aggressive, offensive capacity.




    Exactly what type of offensive actions has NATO taken ?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #27690686 - 03/11/22 08:18 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I support coups over invasions...I guess?
I mean, I don't really support either tbh and I don't see how opposition to one equals support for the other.

I'm pragmatic enough to believe that western and russian actors have had thier fingers in the Ukraine pot. I haven't seen anything to make me believe that Russia is all benevolence and rainbows NATO and the EU are all kid diddlers and war criminals.




Yes both sides have blood on their hands, and both sides have reasons for getting so bloody.

One doesn’t need to take Russia’s side in anything to say that the Western position on Russia since VE Day has been “we are going to suffocate you.” At a certain point, Russia was bound to respond in desperation. Now that they are, Westerners want to throw their arms up in indignation, I think that’s what bothers me most about the discourse. But of course this was always going to be the discourse, we’re not going to receive accurate historical analysis from the media of the nation that deliberately staged a coup there in 2014. History doesn’t go back that far.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27690689 - 03/11/22 08:20 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

It is, however, quite narratively convenient to make this a choice with no third option.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27690696 - 03/11/22 08:30 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Well of course. We have to do something! And that something is (clearly) lay siege to a nation of 150M people because our government considers their government an enemy.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27690699 - 03/11/22 08:33 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

What  did we do exactly when this coup was staged ? Was it before or after the protests and the pro Russian President fled ? What happened in Ukraine prior to this ?

  It seems like the protests started in 2013 and in Jan and feb of 2014 they were shooting protestors .
  Did we cause that ?


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Edited by Psilynut2 (03/11/22 08:39 AM)

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #27690717 - 03/11/22 08:52 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

One of the things that bothers me most about the discourse is the constant refrain of 'US orchestrated coup' because it reduces the people of Ukraine down to pawns of geopolitical powers without any agency of their own. The presence of NATO/US influence and dollars during euromaidan is indisputable, but none of that should take away from the agency of the Ukrainian people, nor the deeply unpopular actions of the Ukrainian state at the time. The US didn't create a popular movement, it took advantage of one.


This perspective is written for what happened in Syria, but it translates well:
Quote:

This left exhibits deeply authoritarian tendencies, one that places states themselves at the centre of political analysis. Solidarity is therefore extended to states (seen as the main actor in a struggle for liberation) rather than oppressed or underprivileged groups in any given society, no matter that state’s tyranny. Blind to the social war occurring within Syria itself, the Syrian people (where they exist) are viewed as mere pawns in a geo-political chess game. They repeat the mantra ‘Assad is the legitimate ruler of a sovereign country’. Assad – who inherited a dictatorship from his father and has never held, let alone won, a free and fair election. Assad – whose ‘Syrian Arab Army’ can only regain the territory it lost with the backing of a hotchpotch of foreign mercenaries and supported by foreign bombs, and who are fighting, by and large, Syrian-born rebels and civilians. How many would consider their own elected government legitimate if it began carrying out mass rape campaigns against dissidents? It’s only the complete dehumanization of Syrians that makes such a position even possible. It’s a racism that sees Syrians as incapable of achieving, let alone deserving, anything better than one of the most brutal dictatorships of our time.



https://leilashami.wordpress.com/2018/04/14/the-anti-imperialism-of-idiots/


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27690727 - 03/11/22 09:05 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Russia has been doing everything they can to silence independent media for as long as I can remember and it's robbed their citizens of the ability to hold their govt accountable for anything .  That's the really  the reason this happening .


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27690730 - 03/11/22 09:08 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

It also may well be the reason that Russia didn't immediately steamroll Ukraine.

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27690732 - 03/11/22 09:11 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

NATO and democracy has never been a threat to the poor Russian peasants , its threat to people like Putin and his buddies .


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27690800 - 03/11/22 10:07 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

That's not necessarily true either. Democracy requires a certain baseline level of social trust that doesn't exist in Russia, and the 90s were a good example of that. Hell, I'd say that modern Russian gangster/late stage capitalism is a direct outgrowth of that.

One of my concerns with the Western response to Russian invasion is that it is designed to facilitate an accelerationist view of society in an effort to put pressure on Putin.

I don't think that's a good thing, but I also don't see many viable alternatives.

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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27690836 - 03/11/22 10:24 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Meanwhile in Ukraine:

In the #Darnitsky district of #Kiev, Dmitry #Demyanenko, former deputy chief of #Ukraine|ian #SBU (State Security Service) was killed by the fighters of the special regiment of police #Mirotvorets (styled after the website created to execute pro-Russian activists). 1/2

https://twitter.com/i/status/1502090441205952513

Ukrainians are now openly carrying out killings against their own on *anybody* suspected of pro-Russian sentiment or wanting to end the war.

These are the maniacs you buffoons are supporting. And they have been carrying out killings just like this one for the past 8 years btw.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27690851 - 03/11/22 10:35 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

chopstick said:

Ukrainians are now openly carrying out killings against their own on *anybody* suspected of pro-Russian sentiment or wanting to end the war.



The english word for such people is "traitors"


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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Enlil]
    #27690897 - 03/11/22 11:09 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

chopstick said:

Ukrainians are now openly carrying out killings against their own on *anybody* suspected of pro-Russian sentiment or wanting to end the war.



The english word for such people is "traitors"




Right - because in Nazified Ukraine having even the slightest of pro-Russian viewpoints makes you a traitor deserving of being executed in the street like a dog.

Thanks for admitting that Ukraine = Nazi

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick] * 1
    #27690899 - 03/11/22 11:11 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't say any of that.  That's your strawman.

Ukraine is being invaded by a foreign country.  By definition, anyone offering aid or comfort to Russia is a traitor.

As far as your bullshit about nazis, how is that even close to relevant? 


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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27690901 - 03/11/22 11:12 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Russia not wanting NATO on its borders is a reasonable demand.

Russia invading a sovereign country because of the possibility that they are joining NATO is no longer reasonable, nor a demand.

I'm surprised choppy and fall haven't brought up the bioweapon hypothesis yet.




Brah the bioweapons debacle has been one of the most equally embarrassing and also incriminating foreign policy disasters in a long time.

Watching Victoria Nuland flounder about trying to explain all this away has been nothing short of hilarious.

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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Enlil]
    #27690908 - 03/11/22 11:17 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I didn't say any of that.  That's your strawman.

Ukraine is being invaded by a foreign country.  By definition, anyone offering aid or comfort to Russia is a traitor.




They were carrying out killings just like this one long before Russia invaded.

Ukraine has been borked ever since the US-backed 2014 coup, bigtime.

At any rate, this guy was a former chief of the Ukrainian intelligence services. He never went over to the Russian side which is evidenced by the fact he was staying in Kiev. Do they have any proof he actually betrayed them? Or did they kill him on suspicion alone? All questions that will never be answered.

In Ukraine all it takes is for someone to speak positively about Russia or say "you know what, we should just stop throwing the lives of our guys away and end the war" to get lit up with automatic weapons by these deathsquads.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27690912 - 03/11/22 11:19 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Says you and some tweet.  I'm unconvinced.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27690953 - 03/11/22 11:40 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
What  did we do exactly when this coup was staged ? Was it before or after the protests and the pro Russian President fled ? What happened in Ukraine prior to this ?

  It seems like the protests started in 2013 and in Jan and feb of 2014 they were shooting protestors .
  Did we cause that ?




By all intents and purposes, yes.

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
NATO and democracy has never been a threat to the poor Russian peasants , its threat to people like Putin and his buddies .





Tell that to the Russian people who saw their life expectancy cut in HALF as a result of Western aggression and the collapse of the USSR.

It’s like saying Al Qaeda isn’t a threat to Americans in the wake of 9/11, if bin Laden had killed 50 million Americans instead of a paltry 3,000.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27690959 - 03/11/22 11:43 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

One of the things that bothers me most about the discourse is the constant refrain of 'US orchestrated coup' because it reduces the people of Ukraine down to pawns of geopolitical powers without any agency of their own. The presence of NATO/US influence and dollars during euromaidan is indisputable, but none of that should take away from the agency of the Ukrainian people, nor the deeply unpopular actions of the Ukrainian state at the time. The US didn't create a popular movement, it took advantage of one.




A distinction without a difference.

Nobody seemed to have issue with dismissing the agency of the Ukrainian people a few years ago in Donetsk and Crimea, or bothered pointing out that Russia was simply taking advantage of ethnic Russian areas in the East.

Citizens who disagree with US foreign policy goals are hapless pawns of Putin, citizens who agree with US foreign policy HAVE AGENCY, but are unfortunately being taken advantage of. What a convenient conclusion for one to reach.


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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27690967 - 03/11/22 11:48 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Who gives a shit if Russia is justified have some fuckin patriotic pride Russia has been our enemy since ever.  Fuck this facist scumbags.  Just cuz Ukraine sucks too doesn't mean Russia isn't evil.  I say we let Ukraine get demolished and then surprise bomb it and then take over Russia and have gas prices go down to a buck a gallon.  If China wants some well nuke them too!


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sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.

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