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theRealrollforever
I DID-DENT



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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] 1
#27672964 - 02/25/22 11:19 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: The thesis I see from a lot of Republicans is that by virtue of Trump being in office, none of this would have ever happened because Trump is just so powerful that he doesn't even need to do anything, he would have just prevented it.
Of course, he does need to plant his ass in the right chair. Apparently, he does not have that same power in the wrong chair.
A bit like the pope.
I think a big part of why Putin is emboldened was the whole oil thing. I'm not claiming to be an authority and I'm sure I will be informed how I am wrong, but gas has been steady climbing for the two years since biden took office. At the same time we have put a "halt/freeze" on domestic energy drilling due to "climate concerns". I am more concerned with the fact we have to buy oil from a dictator that is leaning towards starting the Third World War opposed to climate changes. Every dollar we have to send to Russia for oil is essentially weakening us and strengthening them.
Not to mention it looks like they will be allying with China pretty soon outright. For a Third World War I believe China has to be involved, and now they are. If there's a perfect storm, it's probably having to go up against the Chinese economy and the Russian military while being unable to really hurt their economy due to the sheer dependency we have on essential goods from those countries
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sunshine said: The order has to be secret and no one is sure.
Edited by theRealrollforever (02/25/22 11:23 AM)
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Mach z 800
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] 2
#27672974 - 02/25/22 11:24 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Psilynut2 said:
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face it if trump was in office Putin would of never attempted this. Putin knows trump is fast to respond an is as calculated as Putin is an they had a mutual respect.
After seeing how biden handled Afghanistan Putin seen weakness from American an seen the opportunity to gear up for an invasion. He knows biden is slow to respond an hes weak on top of that.
What happened to us not being the worlds police ? I get you will blame Biden for literally anything anyone else chooses to do all on their own , but why do you think we should be part of this at all ? Why should Americans die ? Why do you want to see American soldiers die over this is what I mean ?
like i said before if trump was in office putin an china would not be making moves like they are doing now.
Trump made it very clear to Russia if you invaded Ukraine we would hit Moscow. Then he told the leaders of china the same thing he will hit them were it hurts.
This was a good deterrent so neither County would want to call his bluff.
What has biden done besides run his mouth?
-Afghanistan shit show.
-shut down our oil production so we rely on other countries an put 1000s of people out of work.
-shity economy you are paying way more for everything.
-weak policys
-weak borders
-his biggest mistake never under estimate your enemies. He talk about how Russia is nothing to worry about an we should all focus on green energy an bla bla.
Trump
-good economy
-No wars when he was in office
-good policys that dint try an kill our economy
-was fast at getting a vaccine made for covid
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Mach z 800
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Quote:
theRealrollforever said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: The thesis I see from a lot of Republicans is that by virtue of Trump being in office, none of this would have ever happened because Trump is just so powerful that he doesn't even need to do anything, he would have just prevented it.
Of course, he does need to plant his ass in the right chair. Apparently, he does not have that same power in the wrong chair.
A bit like the pope.
I think a big part of why Putin is emboldened was the whole oil thing. I'm not claiming to be an authority and I'm sure I will be informed how I am wrong, but gas has been steady climbing for the two years since biden took office. At the same time we have put a "halt/freeze" on domestic energy drilling due to "climate concerns". I am more concerned with the fact we have to buy oil from a dictator that is leaning towards starting the Third World War opposed to climate changes. Every dollar we have to send to Russia for oil is essentially weakening us and strengthening them.
Not to mention it looks like they will be allying with China pretty soon outright. For a Third World War I believe China has to be involved, and now they are. If there's a perfect storm, it's probably having to go up against the Chinese economy and the Russian military while being unable to really hurt their economy due to the sheer dependency we have on essential goods from those countries

☝️☝️☝️
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Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
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Quote:
theRealrollforever said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: The thesis I see from a lot of Republicans is that by virtue of Trump being in office, none of this would have ever happened because Trump is just so powerful that he doesn't even need to do anything, he would have just prevented it.
Of course, he does need to plant his ass in the right chair. Apparently, he does not have that same power in the wrong chair.
A bit like the pope.
I think a big part of why Putin is emboldened was the whole oil thing. I'm not claiming to be an authority and I'm sure I will be informed how I am wrong, but gas has been steady climbing for the two years since biden took office. At the same time we have put a "halt/freeze" on domestic energy drilling due to "climate concerns". I am more concerned with the fact we have to buy oil from a dictator that is leaning towards starting the Third World War opposed to climate changes. Every dollar we have to send to Russia for oil is essentially weakening us and strengthening them.
Not to mention it looks like they will be allying with China pretty soon outright. For a Third World War I believe China has to be involved, and now they are. If there's a perfect storm, it's probably having to go up against the Chinese economy and the Russian military while being unable to really hurt their economy due to the sheer dependency we have on essential goods from those countries

Well, your first mistake is the idea that the US has shut down oil production. Oil production in the US is the highest it has ever been. The US is now energy independent. Biden has only stopped leasing new federal land for new oil rigs. The rigs that have already been there are running full tilt and new rigs are being put on private land daily.
The US barely buys any Russian oil. Russian imports were 7% of total oil imports in the US last year.
Buying oil for USD from Russia doesn't actually hurt the US all that much, because we control the USD. What is Russia gonna do with USD? The much bigger concern, right now, is that Russia is actively getting rid of its USD holdings and buying up gold and other currencies. That gives us less leverage over their economy.
Finally, Russia and China have been working together for some time now. They did joint military exercises while Trump was in office, and China has clearly given tacit approval, or at least the promise of not getting in the way of, Putin's war. I'm guessing they also have some deal worked out where China will start buying oil that the EU and US stop buying. The scary thing is that they will likely buy that oil for gold, instead of using USD like every other oil deal in the world. This means the USD won't be as dominant, which hurts the US economy.
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Psicomb
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] 1
#27673021 - 02/25/22 12:00 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Maybe if we all start riding our bikes everywhere putin won't be so mean
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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something - nick sand
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theRealrollforever
I DID-DENT



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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb] 1
#27673035 - 02/25/22 12:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Why is gas the most it has been in years then? I don't understand why the price would rise when the supply is the "highest it's ever been"
If you could link to something to make me feel better about the situation like you do it would be awesome. I'd love to feel like there is nothing to worry about.
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sunshine said: The order has to be secret and no one is sure.
Edited by theRealrollforever (02/25/22 12:10 PM)
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Kryptos
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Quote:
theRealrollforever said: Why is gas the most it has been in years then? I don't understand why the price would rise when the supply is the "highest it's ever been"
Because demand is also the highest it's ever been, and for the last two years, demand has been artificially lowered by the pandemic?
Gas was 5$ a gallon when Bush left office. Gas is only expensive when compared to the lockdowns. Overall, gas is pretty cheap, still.
I'm almost certain gas will spike on the expectation of gas spiking, as oil companies realize they can jack up prices and blame it on the war. Edit: just saw a headline of some oil exec promising that they will not take advantage of the war to raise prices. So, they will almost certainly do that.
Matter of fact, I think that explains a good bit of the inflation we see. Companies see headlines about inflation and figure they can raise their margins a bit without taking the blame. That's why the last year, with all the inflation, was still one of the more profitable years in corporate history.
Edited by Kryptos (02/25/22 12:15 PM)
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Stable Genius
Radicalised


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] 3
#27673082 - 02/25/22 01:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Regardless of the politics there's something to be said for an unarmed woman telling a soldier with a gun he's a piece of shit 
Some excellent propaganda here from The Guardian.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#27673089 - 02/25/22 01:17 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Stable Genius said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The US agreed not to expand NATO eastward around the time East Germany reunited with West Germany.
West promised not to expand NATO
I'm not convinced this is some sort of smoking gun that proves much 
In the minutes of that meeting, this was also said Quote:
'We could not therefore offer membership of NATO to Poland and the others. We might however consider referring to our interest in these countries in future NATO declarations.'
That doesn't sound like an unwavering promise that carries any weight to me?
Let's look at the full context:
"We had made it clear during the negotiations that we would not extend NATO beyond the Elbe. We could not therefore offer membership of NATO to Poland and other countries. We might however consider referring to our interest in these countries in future NATO declarations."
I think it's pretty clear we agreed NATO would not extend beyond the Elbe. Having an "interest" in these countries isn't the same as offering membership to those countries.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#27673092 - 02/25/22 01:19 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Brian Jones said: I don't think there is any point to try to argue with Falcon or Ecstatic that we didn't promise to not expand NATO eastward. They both think that the fact that any such agreement was made without the OK of the President of the United States (Clinton or HW Bush) is not relevant.
I just quoted the promise above. I agree with you that it wasn't put in a treaty, and we don't know if it had the OK of the President, but the promise was made.
Russia learned that US promises can't be trusted, and agreements need to be put in writing in the future.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Enkidu] 1
#27673099 - 02/25/22 01:26 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Enkidu said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Enkidu said: So it's time for them to reclaim the motherland or what ?
Patiently waited

What the fuck are you shaking your head at
Russia's not going to reclaim Ukraine. They haven't even claimed the separatist regions, just recognized them as independent.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stable Genius
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Let's look at the full context:
Ok.
Quote:
Decisions on membership are taken by consensus among all Allies.
Did that occur? No 
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm#c203
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Psilynut2
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No ones promises can be trusted when the stakes are very high . Why does that even matter ?
Edited by Psilynut2 (02/25/22 01:29 PM)
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Stable Genius
Radicalised


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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Russia's not going to reclaim Ukraine. They haven't even claimed the separatist regions, just recognized them as independent.
They're most likely going to further ruin the country and that's about it. Ukrainians don't want their country split, even in the east.
Maybe Russia could stop supporting a minority in a civil war, perhaps that'd help seeing as they're so concerned about peace?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#27673137 - 02/25/22 01:59 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Let's look at the full context:
Ok.
Quote:
Decisions on membership are taken by consensus among all Allies.
Did that occur? No 
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm#c203
Again, I understand the promise wasn't legally binding. Russia learned its lesson not to trust the US.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] 2
#27673159 - 02/25/22 02:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Stable Genius said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Russia's not going to reclaim Ukraine. They haven't even claimed the separatist regions, just recognized them as independent.
They're most likely going to further ruin the country and that's about it.
Which is why Russia would never take them. It'd be far too expensive.
Quote:
Stable Genius said: Ukrainians don't want their country split, even in the east.
Maybe Russia could stop supporting a minority in a civil war, perhaps that'd help seeing as they're so concerned about peace?
Maybe the US shouldn't have orchestrated a coup to put in a US friendly President in charge of Ukraine in the first place? That's when the Russian friendly territories separated (Eastern Ukraine declared their independence in 2014, while Crimea voted to rejoin Russia).
Russia actually made many efforts for peace over the years, but they have all been interfered with by the US. Plus Ukraine ignored the Minsk agreements.
Too bad Zelensky's become such a puppet of the West.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Fiery
Sword of Fire


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just wait till America gets a little power hungry and starts invading its neighboors.
It'll make what Putin is doing look like child play
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Near Dylan
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No one should think that a vague verbal agreement made independently by one American president's administration 30 years ago with the then leader of the now collapsed Soviet Union would hold up in modern context and honestly its such a bonehead move to be harping on it so much as if it at all explains or justifies what's going on
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Kryptos
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Fiery] 1
#27673167 - 02/25/22 02:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Fiery said: just wait till America gets a little power hungry and starts invading its neighboors.
It'll make what Putin is doing look like child play
We have to wait for China's turn.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Fiery] 2
#27673177 - 02/25/22 02:35 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fiery said: just wait till America gets a little power hungry and starts invading its neighboors.
It'll make what Putin is doing look like child play
It already has. America's been overthrowing governments for centuries, including Ukraine's own Government in 2014.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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