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shivas.wisdom
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] 3
#27681824 - 03/03/22 11:57 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Yeah most of this isn't new to me, but thanks for taking the time to write it up anyways. I've never denied the role played by Western nations - I've only objected to the notion that events were an 'orchestrated coup' by the West.
It’s really shameful that some in the west have gobbled up this bit of Russian propaganda. The people of Ukraine have their own agency. They elected a person who immediately started destroying democratic institutions and was robbing the country blind. They saw their country about to become a puppet state of Russia. They took to the streets and drove him out of power.
There's a not-insignificant tendency among the left to view things strictly along the lines of for-or-against US imperialism - at its most extreme, dictators who resist US influence are held up as revolutionary examples. This is how you get people seeing Assad, rather than the Kurds, as the most respectable government in Syria - and it's how you get people supporting the Chinese state cracking down on Hong Kong. The Russian propaganda gets eaten up because it's just so juicy for some. I don't understand why it's appetizing, but I have observed it correlates with acceptance of left-wing authoritarianism.
Personally, it's always stuck out as an incredibly paternalistic attitude because, as you say, people around the globe have their own agency - and for some of these people, resist US gov't interests isn't their most pressing need.
But, I do wanna make clear that I think you engage in similar behaviours just with the poles reversed. The events of euromaidan weren't a fascist coup but neither were they a democratic revolution and we shouldn't describe it as such. It was a population stuck in the middle of geopolitical jostling that had their anger, fear and hope used by the bordering superpowers to entrench the tentacles of political power and economic exploitation. The ultimate result was civil war in east and an empowered far-right Ukrainian nationalism in Kiev - not any advance towards greater democracy or human rights. If we want any hope to not continually repeat this pattern of revolution, we need to approach events at honestly as possible.
If it seems like I'm more lenient to your approach, it's because I am. In general, I see opinions like yours as the result of propaganda, whereas posts like Falcon91Wolvrn03's strike me as actual propaganda - only the latter is likely to influence others. Plus, in my social circles very few people fall victim to idealizing the American state, but this type of propaganda coming from Russia has been very effective, so I'm much more sensitive to it when I encounter it. And in this specific situation, the Russian state is the military aggressor so I'll be more critical of attempts to absolve their role in this war.
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wolf8312
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
#27681908 - 03/04/22 02:47 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said: Putin just gave a speech and said he believes Ukraine has always been part of Russia and that he is saving half of the population that was tricked by the Nazis . Gotta listen to both sides of the argument bro.
Well, last week you (all) denounced an entire protest movement as Nazis because a fascist flag had appeared amongst them (although videos of this lone individual being expelled and jeered by the protestors were typically ignored).
If similar fascist flags appeared among Ukrainian protesters would you similarly denounce all Ukrainian protesters as Nazis?
Or would that be ridiculous?
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Brian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312]
#27681980 - 03/04/22 05:12 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I get it. If a fascist flag appears at a protest you should invade the country and kill as many people as possible, because if not that would be ridiculous.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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wolf8312
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] 2
#27682034 - 03/04/22 06:04 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: I get it. If a fascist flag appears at a protest you should invade the country and kill as many people as possible, because if not that would be ridiculous.
An utterly shameless but in no way surprising misrepresentation of what I was actually saying!
I'll try again...
Hypothetically Brian.
If the racist flags at the Canadian protests were proof that the Canadian protestors were all Nazis and racists, would the appearance of fascist flags at a Ukrainian protest prove that the Ukrainian protestors were also all Nazis and racists?
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
Edited by wolf8312 (03/04/22 06:11 AM)
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,640
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312]
#27682052 - 03/04/22 06:26 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Long lines by the russian ATM's, Russia is experiencing a bank run. The Moscow exchange dropped 30% in value since invading Ukraine. Russia got kicked out of the SWIFT banking system too.
How dare I talk about economics in this time of humanitarian need?
The war machine needs roubles to keep running.
If this bank run precipitates a bank holiday or hyperinflationary crisis, its a serious blow to the war machine.
No more war.
Al Gore.
No more nuclear war.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Near Dylan
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312] 1
#27682079 - 03/04/22 06:48 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Idk man it's not just coming from "one fascist flag at a protest". A few of Ukraine's politicians placed in high level position were members of the "Social Nationalist" Party of ukraine, until they changed their name to something less obviously nazi inspired.
Not saying it justifies anything but cmon, really... this isnt like "trump is nazi bc i saw a a nazi flag at his rally" this is more like if trump had appointed a dude from the National Socialist Party of America as his VP and hired 4 NatSoc cronies in other high level positions.
Just tryna paint the full picture here...
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wolf8312
Pennywise


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Near Dylan]
#27682092 - 03/04/22 07:02 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Near Dylan said: Idk man it's not just coming from "one fascist flag at a protest". A few of Ukraine's politicians placed in high level position were members of the "Social Nationalist" Party of ukraine, until they changed their name to something less obviously nazi inspired.
Not saying it justifies anything but cmon, really... this isnt like "trump is nazi bc i saw a a nazi flag at his rally" this is more like if trump had appointed a dude from the National Socialist Party of America as his VP and hired 4 NatSoc cronies in other high level positions.
Just tryna paint the full picture here...
I have heard there are indeed genuine Neo-Nazis in Ukraine. Not sure how much truth there is to this myself as it’s the standard excuse for every invasion nowadays but I’ve heard a lot of those stories. Almost impossible to verify anything for sure these days though!
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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christopera
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312] 3
#27682096 - 03/04/22 07:05 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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They have an entire battalion that flies Nazi symbols and their own estimation is that like 10%-20% of that battalion identifies as a Neo Nazi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet


Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: christopera] 1
#27682131 - 03/04/22 07:42 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Neonazism is very intense from eastern Germany, into Poland, Ukraine and Russia.
In Russian cities, gangs of neonazis run around town with baseball bats and pipes, savagely beating up every non-Russian they see but especially nonwhite ones. Even speaking in favor of homosexuality is re-illegalized there.
Whether you are in Saxony, Poland, Ukraine or Russia you can meet with extreme ethnocentric nationalism.
Nazism tagged onto a violent xenophobia that pre-existed there and outlived it.
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Brian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312] 1
#27682175 - 03/04/22 08:29 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
wolf8312 said:
Quote:
Near Dylan said: Idk man it's not just coming from "one fascist flag at a protest". A few of Ukraine's politicians placed in high level position were members of the "Social Nationalist" Party of ukraine, until they changed their name to something less obviously nazi inspired.
Not saying it justifies anything but cmon, really... this isnt like "trump is nazi bc i saw a a nazi flag at his rally" this is more like if trump had appointed a dude from the National Socialist Party of America as his VP and hired 4 NatSoc cronies in other high level positions.
Just tryna paint the full picture here...
I have heard there are indeed genuine Neo-Nazis in Ukraine. Not sure how much truth there is to this myself as it’s the standard excuse for every invasion nowadays but I’ve heard a lot of those stories. Almost impossible to verify anything for sure these days though!
There are indeed genuine Neo-Nazis in the U.S., Canada, most if not all European countries, and many South American countries (where the actual genuine German Nazis fled to). Africa and Asia remain relatively unblemished.
So what does any of this have to do with the Russian invasion of Ukraine?
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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christopera
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] 3
#27682184 - 03/04/22 08:38 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think it is that Putin claimed to be fighting Neo Nazi's in Ukraine. Which while fairly disingenuous regarding his real intentions, is at least partially true.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Psicomb
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones]
#27682185 - 03/04/22 08:39 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I feel like every response people get when they ask that same question is "its complicated" followed up by YouTube videos, if they choose to give you the full package delivery
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Brian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: christopera] 1
#27682210 - 03/04/22 09:04 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said: I think it is that Putin claimed to be fighting Neo Nazi's in Ukraine. Which while fairly disingenuous regarding his real intentions, is at least partially true.
It's true in terms, of are there Nazis there. Ukraine is probably among the worst, but it's a fairly long list. I think Assante's post about extreme neo-nazis in Russia is accurate, and they are emboldened by Putin's regime, just as right-wing extremists were cocky here when Trump was President. But I give zero credibility to the idea that the invasion had anything to do with that. Ukraine does not have a worse human rights record regarding right-wing extremism than Russia. Russia is not the Soviet Union, which was a failure, but it was a historically significant experiment in social change. Russia is just gangster capitalism run by autocrats, and nearly every one of them is Putin's buddy.
I think you're being overly apologetic by saying fairly ingenious regarding his real intentions, but I get the point.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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christopera
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] 3
#27682223 - 03/04/22 09:22 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I guess "fairly disingenuous" wasn't strong enough wording for you?
Clearly he could care less about neo nazis. The goal is obvious, that being to stop Nato expansion.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Asante
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: christopera]
#27682231 - 03/04/22 09:30 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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christopera said: The goal is obvious, that being to stop Nato expansion.
I hope that that's his goal, and not another layer of ruse.
He is an oldfashioned ruler dreaming of Great Russia. He might intend territorial expansion.
It wouldnt surprise me.
Very little would surprise me at this point.
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Psilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: christopera]
#27682234 - 03/04/22 09:31 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is going to create more NATO countries though . This is probably the worst thing he could of done if that's really the goal .
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christopera
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Asante]
#27682235 - 03/04/22 09:31 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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He better be careful. A significant drop in quality of life in the homeland could bring and end to his rule. How much will the Oligarchs put up with?
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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christopera
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] 1
#27682236 - 03/04/22 09:32 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said: This is going to create more NATO countries though . This is probably the worst thing he could of done if that's really the goal .
Nobody said it was smart.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Psilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: christopera]
#27682240 - 03/04/22 09:35 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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No but allot people seem to think it's understandable from his perspective , and I think that's crazy .
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wolf8312
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones]
#27682299 - 03/04/22 10:18 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
wolf8312 said:
Quote:
Near Dylan said: Idk man it's not just coming from "one fascist flag at a protest". A few of Ukraine's politicians placed in high level position were members of the "Social Nationalist" Party of ukraine, until they changed their name to something less obviously nazi inspired.
Not saying it justifies anything but cmon, really... this isnt like "trump is nazi bc i saw a a nazi flag at his rally" this is more like if trump had appointed a dude from the National Socialist Party of America as his VP and hired 4 NatSoc cronies in other high level positions.
Just tryna paint the full picture here...
I have heard there are indeed genuine Neo-Nazis in Ukraine. Not sure how much truth there is to this myself as it’s the standard excuse for every invasion nowadays but I’ve heard a lot of those stories. Almost impossible to verify anything for sure these days though!
There are indeed genuine Neo-Nazis in the U.S., Canada, most if not all European countries, and many South American countries (where the actual genuine German Nazis fled to). Africa and Asia remain relatively unblemished.
So what does any of this have to do with the Russian invasion of Ukraine?
Well you could at least have answered the question I asked you first!
But if you read what I actually wrote, instead of what you’d like me to have wrote, you’ll see I wasn’t even the person claiming there are Neo-Nazis in Ukraine (I honestly don’t know) and even said such a pretext is a standard line for all invaders these days (especially the neoconservatives).
I don’t think it’s the reason Putin is invading (though there may well be truth to it) although it is a less ludicrous explanation than that he’s going Napoleon in a nuclear age and wants to rebuild the Soviet Union!
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
Edited by wolf8312 (03/04/22 10:33 AM)
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