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Psilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
#27678022 - 03/01/22 09:24 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm still processing how Putin is freeing the Ukranians from nazism they are being subjected to under their very Jewish president
You saw the Dore video too ?
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Psicomb
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] 1
#27678028 - 03/01/22 09:31 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mach z 800 said: The reason Russia is going after Ukraine is because of there white supremacy they have..there is videos of them treating Africans differently.
They are allowed white people to leave the country first an forcing Africans to leave last .
Mach, dude , do you even understand what comes out of your mouth half the time?
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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something - nick sand
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Stable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
#27678267 - 03/01/22 01:16 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said:
Quote:
I'm still processing how Putin is freeing the Ukrainians from Nazism they are being subjected to under their very Jewish president
You saw the Dire video too ?
Check out that doco by Oliver Stone that syncro posted, it explains the Nazi reference very well and lays out exactly how the Maydan coup was orchestrated with the help of the U.S. government, simple as that.
Like most stories there's a lot that's happened to lead to this point anyone should be able to look at these stories and comment without being labelled a Putin apologist.
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Psicomb
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#27678284 - 03/01/22 01:27 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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But Putin is not there trying to free them from nazism... like, what? That is such a reach compared to ideas like westward expansion, fighting for resources, etc... sending in squads to kill the Jewish president because he has a nazi agenda? No way man, this has nothing to do with nazism.
Like, Putin just tried to get Alexei Nevalny killed a year or two ago and then locked his ass up for no reason besides promoting transparancy.. I don't understand how anyone can believe that Putin is being an altruistic leader who wants denazification of Ukraine by bombing them, killing random people, and desperately trying to assassinate the president
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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something - nick sand
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Mach z 800
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
#27678290 - 03/01/22 01:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psicomvb said:
Quote:
Mach z 800 said: The reason Russia is going after Ukraine is because of there white supremacy they have..there is videos of them treating Africans differently.
They are allowed white people to leave the country first an forcing Africans to leave last .
Mach, dude , do you even understand what comes out of your mouth half the time?
Quote:
Psicomvb said:
Quote:
Mach z 800 said: The reason Russia is going after Ukraine is because of there white supremacy they have..there is videos of them treating Africans differently.
They are allowed white people to leave the country first an forcing Africans to leave last .
Mach, dude , do you even understand what comes out of your mouth half the time?
well its true they are no better than American so in away its a good thing Russia is doing this. Those citizens from Africa should be a priority to protect. Instead they are being segregated .
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Stable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
#27678291 - 03/01/22 01:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm not making excuses for Putin, nor was Aaron Mate, nor was Oliver Stone.
Everyone agrees that he has gone too far.
All I was trying to say was there's a lot that has gone on before this to lead to this point and after watching that other doco that syncro posted yeah, there IS a neo-Nazi element in Ukraine. Western Ukraine sided with the Nazi's in WW2.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
#27678299 - 03/01/22 01:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Calling Euromaidan a US orchestrated coup is a distortion of reality. If your comments are a one-sided misrepresentation, intentional or not you are engaging in apologism. Now, full disclosure, I don't have an internet connection that allows for quick streaming of video, so I haven't watched the documentary in question - but I am familiar with the events. Perhaps, if the documentary "lays out exactly" how things happened, you can provide a brief summary here.
Otherwise, to continually repeat the refrain that this was a US orchestrated coup without acknowledging that then-President Yanukovych's decision to delay ratification of an admission treaty with the EU is largely seen as the initial trigger for protests, is to provide a one-sided truth.
To pretend that US funded a violent revolution without acknowledging that Ukrainian state police were responsible for the initial escalation into violence, is to provide a one-sided truth.
To pretend that the Russian state is acting to protect ethnic Russians in Ukraine from nazis without acknowledging that ultranationalist fascist groups are well represented on both sides of this conflict, is to provide a one-sided truth.
Repeating one-sided truths isn't an exercise in fact finding - it's engagement with propaganda networks.
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Psicomb
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
#27678300 - 03/01/22 01:46 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said: I'm not making excuses for Putin, nor was Aaron Mate, nor was Oliver Stone.
Everyone agrees that he has gone too far.
All I was trying to say was there's a lot that has gone on before this to lead to this point and after watching that other doco that syncro posted yeah, there IS a neo-Nazi element in Ukraine. Western Ukraine sided with the Nazi's in WW2.
I get what you're saying but with that logic there's a nazi element in the United States too man. For example, we welcomed many of them with open arms as long as they could do science experiments. Doesn't mean Nazis have taken over their country, or America. They definitely exist but having a Jewish president who pushes a democratic agenda is very, very not nazi
There are nazis everywhere man, Russia has more than enough to share themselves.. and yet here Russia is in Ukraine fighting against "neo nazis".
I will try n watch that doc cuz I respect some stuff oliver stone has done. I tried the Dore video and lasted 30 seconds, and I don't mean it made me cum 
I need to read up on some of your links too, Shiva
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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something - nick sand
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Stable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27678305 - 03/01/22 01:57 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hi shiva I was thinking of your comment yesterday and did want to address the point you made regarding the idea that coups are ultimately decided by the people.
I'd have to watch it again to properly quote it and I am happy to do so, I just have to get to work, but I will.
And I'm sorry I don't agree that looking a bit deeper into an issue is promoting propaganda.
Should we allow only half the story to be heard? Isn't that exactly the problem with these on-going wars the U.S. keeps funding?
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
#27678310 - 03/01/22 01:59 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's true that, thanks to their active participation in the Maidan protests of 2014, the Ukrainian ultra-right has secured an outsize position in politics and law enforcement agencies - but in all the elections in Ukraine since 2014, they have won no more than a few percent points of the vote. The problem of the Ukrainian ultra-right must be solved, but it won't be solved with Russian tanks.
In the immediate aftermath of Euromaidan, Russia launched a propaganda campaign using the following messaging: “punishers,” (aka nazis) are coming from Kyiv to Donetsk, they want to destroy the Russian-speaking population (although Kyiv is also a predominantly Russian-speaking city). In their disinformation statements, they spread all kinds of fake news - one of the most notorious hoaxes? - the so-called crucifixion of a three-year-old boy who was allegedly attached to a tank and dragged along the road.
This propaganda campaign has been very successful within the Russo-sphere - especially when coupled with the mythology of the 'Great Patriotic War' - but why anyone outside of that bubble would honestly believe Russia could possibly represent an antifascist force today is beyond my kenning.
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Stable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
#27678313 - 03/01/22 02:00 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psicomvb said:
I get what you're saying but with that logic there's a nazi element in the United States too man. For example, we welcomed many of them with open arms as long as they could do science experiments. Doesn't mean Nazis have taken over their country, or America. They definitely exist but having a Jewish president who pushes a democratic agenda is very, very not nazi
There are nazis everywhere man, Russia has more than enough to share themselves.. and yet here Russia is in Ukraine fighting against "neo nazis".
I will try n watch that doc cuz I respect some stuff oliver stone has done. I tried the Dore video and lasted 30 seconds, and I don't mean it made me cum 
cool bananas, that Oliver Stone doco explains a lot... remember that merry band of pranksters the CIA? Yep.
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Stable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27678317 - 03/01/22 02:02 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: The problem of the Ukrainian ultra-right must be solved, but it won't be solved with Russian tanks.
Agreed. I'll get back to you.
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Markamello
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
#27678326 - 03/01/22 02:07 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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The link the the video that synchro posted is broken. Do you have another link?
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Psilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
#27678330 - 03/01/22 02:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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When the other side is telling lies and killing civilians as they launch an invasion into their neighbor I really don't give a fuck about their side of the argument . That's honestly stupid .
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
#27678333 - 03/01/22 02:10 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said: And I'm sorry I don't agree that looking a bit deeper into an issue is promoting propaganda.
Should we allow only half the story to be heard? Isn't that exactly the problem with these on-going wars the U.S. keeps funding?
I have no problem with looking deeper. My problem is that what you describe as looking deeper is just providing another one-sided story. It might seem like we can just add up the different half stories in order to reach the whole truth, but unfortunately in this case the sum of the parts is lesser than the whole.
I've provided more than a few resources that investigate deeper into the Western statist influences in Ukraine, without falling into Russian state apologism. I recommend this one, and I imagine it's even more in-depth than could be offered by a documentary: The Ukrainian Euromaidan: The Solution to Putin, or Just Another Fascist Political Coup?
But yeah, take your time to respond to that last post of mine that you mentioned. It contains a lot of further reading, but I've tried to give brief summaries so you can focus on aspects that strike you as more relevant. I don't recommend readings unless I've already taken the time to read them myself, so I can also provide further direction on relevant passages if you don't feel like wading through the whole thing.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27678350 - 03/01/22 02:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know none of you are likely to have much reason to believe the veracity of these claims - but the way international anarchist communication networks function is like this: I may not know anyone in Ukraine, but I know someone in Canada who I trust, and they know someone in Ukraine who they trust - so, I will trust this person in Ukraine to the same extent I trust my friend in Canada. It might seem precarious, but over time you can build very effective networks around trust-based relationships that are able to cover the entire globe. With that in mind, I have great personal reason to trust the veracity of these claims.
Ukraine: Between Two Fires
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A lot of people in the West, influenced by Russian propaganda and the disinformation campaign, started to believe the narrative that what happened in Ukraine back in 2014 was a fascist coup supported by NATO. Some journalists—also liberals, but besides liberals, there were also anarchists and leftists who reproduced that narrative—argued that it was a NATO coup and that a fascist government was established afterwards.
Can you evaluate that narrative? Was it like that, or was there something else happening at that point?
Yes, I think I can speak about it confidently, because I participated in the events myself. I was in Kiev for nine days in the very hot phase of the conflict in February. So what I witnessed personally was the really popular movement in which hundreds of thousands of people [participated]. When I discussed it later with some Western comrades, I heard these speculations about what NATO did behind the scenes and a Nazi coup and stuff like this. Other people answered that, OK, if there were hundreds of thousands of people on the streets, it could not be just an orchestrated coup or something like that.
The far right participated in this, of course. They participated actively, made effective political developments in this, and were very aggressive, very dominant, and successful to a certain point. But they were still a minority in these protests, of course. And even though their ideological influence—it did really exist, it’s true, but they were not the ones who were legislating the protests, or who really designed the demands and the ideological face of these events.
I saw a lot of very spontaneous popular self-organization. I saw a lot of very sincere popular unrest and anger against the state establishment, which really made this country poor and humiliated. So to the biggest extent, it was absolutely an authentic popular uprising. Even though, of course, all of the political powers who could benefit from it tried to influence it as hard as they could. And they were partly successful.
But I take this mostly as the question to us—to libertarians, anarchists, the radical left if you want—why weren’t we organized enough to compete effectively with fascists? This is not a question to the Maidan movement or to the people of Ukraine, but to us. And once again, to summarize, Maidan was first of all a popular uprising.
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/01/22 02:26 PM)
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syncro
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#27678401 - 03/01/22 03:02 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Otherwise, to continually repeat the refrain that this was a US orchestrated coup without acknowledging that then-President Yanukovych's decision to delay ratification of an admission treaty with the EU is largely seen as the initial trigger for protests, is to provide a one-sided truth."
If I recall correctly in the Ukraine on Fire doc, Yanukovych was interviewed and saying that the deal with the EU was economically very unfavorable compared to what was available continuing the trade with Russia. I don't recall more details around it.
Edited by syncro (03/01/22 03:02 PM)
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AphexPin
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
#27678450 - 03/01/22 03:44 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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war bad
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
#27678458 - 03/01/22 03:51 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes, that was his official reasoning and there is likely some truth to it - most neoliberal trade agreements benefit profit over people - but this was still a deeply unpopular decision to many Ukrainians who considered the rejection as another of Yanukovych’s Putin-friendly maneuvers, made against the backdrop of the country’s sizeable debt for gas from Russia and the formation of the Eurasian Economic Union (with it's own unfavourable conditions).
At that point, every political power who could benefit from it tried to influence Ukraine as hard as they could - and they were all partly successful. The only real loser here was the common people of Ukraine.
Did the USA influence the events? Absolutely - but to say they orchestrated a coup is to ignore all the other actions taken by Western and Russian leaders, and the Ukrainian ruling class, that created the conditions for such popular discontent in the first place.
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koods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
#27678598 - 03/01/22 05:31 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Stable Genius said: No excuse for what? The U.S. government meddling in other countries affairs? I agree.
Also, I still think Putin’s a cunt and he should not have invaded Ukraine.
This has nothing to do with the US. This is about Putin’s imperialistic desires
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (03/01/22 05:32 PM)
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