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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #28001415 - 10/16/22 06:15 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

So does anyone here actually think Ukraine deserves to be militarily invaded?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #28001547 - 10/16/22 09:22 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Deserve has to do with the juxtaposition of negatively framing Ukraine and a military invasion of a sovereign country.

What country deserves this?

Imo it was started because of natural resources. Putin thought it would be a one and done situation and went balls deep, and when the airport siege happened there was no turning back so they kept trying, but because of his violent authoritarian nature, negative communication didn't get through his inner circle of yes men hindering logistics. 

So on and so forth it's pretty clear imo that it's a land grab.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28001577 - 10/16/22 09:54 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

The history is pretty clear, so the question seems reasonable to me.

We could start a Japan thread and ask the same question there.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28001941 - 10/16/22 03:23 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Deserve has to do with the juxtaposition of negatively framing Ukraine and a military invasion of a sovereign country.

What country deserves this?

Imo it was started because of natural resources. Putin thought it would be a one and done situation and went balls deep, and when the airport siege happened there was no turning back so they kept trying, but because of his violent authoritarian nature, negative communication didn't get through his inner circle of yes men hindering logistics. 

So on and so forth it's pretty clear imo that it's a land grab.




What country deserves being invaded by authoritarians?

Only

Russia, China, North Korea, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, and Iran, obviously.




I don't think any country deserves to he invaded, but still, in regard to Ukraine, do you think they deserve to be militarily invaded?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #28003379 - 10/17/22 04:21 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

The US funded al qaeda to materialise an invasion of their country.

Can't we say the US is fucked and shouldn't invade other countries, and that Russia is fucked and shouldn't invade other countries?

Why defend either!!


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28003925 - 10/17/22 09:13 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

You've just assumed someone talking about their preferred candidate is equivalent to enacting the coup, you have a textbook non sequitur there sir.

Did you ignore that Russia threatened a blockade on Ukrainian goods, a stranglehold on gas, and the Ukrainian president wasn't flexible on the treatment of Tymoshenko?

Russia threatened to economically cut off Ukraine.

Quote:

Woodruff: And why do they feel so strongly about this deal with the European Union falling apart, at least for now?

Pifer: Europe has a lot of attraction for Ukrainians. Polls show more than 50 percent of the Ukrainian population now would like to get closer to Europe.

And it’s because of the living standards, but it’s also because of rule of law. For a country where there is corruption, where crony politics, they would like to have a more normal democratic system, and that is the attraction of Europe.

Woodruff: But their leader, Mr. Yanukovych, has been under a lot of pressure from Russia, from Vladimir Putin.

Pifer: Right.

Woodruff: Why did he give in to that pressure?

Pifer: Well, I think there were a couple of things.

First of all, it wasn’t clear before the government made its announcement that it was suspending its work. It wasn’t clear that they had met all of the European Union conditions, because the European Union said, in order to do this, for the European Union side, there had to be certain criteria in the democracy area.

The other consideration was the pressure from Russia and concern that at least in the short term, the association agreement, which would have brought Ukraine into a free trade arrangement with Europe, would have had some dislocation costs for the Ukraine industry, although the payoffs in the long term would have been huge.

Woodruff: And so, for Yanukovych, was he seriously considering the E.U. arrangement?

Pifer: I think Mr. Yanukovych, he certainly wanted to sign the agreement.

And there were reports that some of his advisers were saying, if you sign this agreement, you could then campaign for reelection in 2015 as the man who brought Ukraine into Europe.

I’m not sure he understood what all of the implementation would require, but that was sort of a longer-term consideration, and he tends to think short-term.

Woodruff: And why — why are the Russians, why is Putin, in particular, so determined that Ukraine is going to remain within its orbit and closer to Russia?

Pifer: Well, there’s a couple of reasons, first of all, the long historical connections between Russia and Ukraine.

But, also, you have seen, I think, over the last several years under Vladimir Putin an effort to really reestablish Russian influence in the post-Soviet space. He doesn’t want to rebuild the Soviet Union, but he does want his neighbors, particularly Ukraine, to pay attention to Russians’ interests on big questions.

And I think from the Russian point of view, a Ukraine that signs an association agreement and implements it is going to be well out of Moscow’s geopolitical orbit.

Woodruff: But, as you — as you look at the terms of what they were talking about with the European Union, short term would have been difficult for the country economically, but long term they stood to gain a lot in terms of commerce…

Pifer: Exactly.

Woodruff: … and trade. Why was that not — why was that not enticement overriding the Russian offer?

Pifer: Well, again, I think the attraction certainly was there.

But when Mr. Yanukovych looked at it — again, I think he looks in the short term, and he saw problems both in terms of some dislocation to Ukrainian industry simply from joining a market with more competitive European industries, but he also saw the threat which the Russians have demonstrated over the last four months of perhaps economic sanctions and cutting off Russian — or the Russian market to Ukraine.

So, again, his short-term considerations led him to make a decision in terms of suspending the agreement that I think denied his country some huge long-term benefits

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/on-the-record/why-did-ukraines-yanukovych-give-in-to-russian-pressure-on-eu-deal/amp/




More than 100% voter turnup and an almost 97% swing doesn't raise an alarm or look like a red flag to you?

Quote:

In Sevastopol, the largest city in Crimea, turnout for Sunday’s referendum reached an astonishing 123% of registered voters. There may be an explanation for this number that doesn’t involve the simple stuffing of ballot boxes:

One reporter from Kiev showed his Russian passport and was handed a ballot and allowed to vote. This raised questions in Kiev if perhaps the Russian soldiers and Russian paramilitary occupying the area since late February had been allowed to cast votes.

Overall, an impressive 96.77% of Crimeans voted to secede from Ukraine. Legal scholar Ilya Somin asks whether such a result may reflect the fact that opponents of the Russian invasion simply stayed home. After all, why take part in what you know to be a Soviet-style farce? Unlikely, he says.

Less than 60% of Crimea is ethnically Russian and about 12% belongs to the Muslim Tatar minority, which wants to stay as far from Moscow as possible. Thus, the result itself demonstrated the referendum’s humorous nature, even before one considers procedural tricks or intimidation. And there was no apparent shortage of intimidation. A correspondent for the New Yorker reports

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/davidadesnik/2014/03/18/how-russia-rigged-crimean-referendum/amp/ ;




At least we've reached the point where you've more or less admitted to thinking Ukraine deserves to be militarily invaded, with your apparent inability to say you don't think so. Imo.

If you have more than anecdotes do share.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #28005459 - 10/18/22 08:18 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

20,000 pages wouldn't change a thing since the context is the same, as the sniper conspiracy remains one.

Quote:

The Russian-government-funded television network RT (formerly Russia Today) has reported a “leaked” phone call between EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs Catherine Ashton and Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet that is getting a lot of attention, but all it really does is underscore how little we actually know about what happened during the clashes and shootings in Kiev on February 19 and 20.

The call – confirmed as genuine, and an apparent EU security lapse – included a statement by Paet that one of the main doctors for the Maidan movement in Ukraine found that snipers who allegedly shot at “people in the street” during the February 19-20 bloodshed in Kiev had also shot at police. In the 60 seconds or so when this issue is discussed, Paet says that the doctor made her conclusion based on the bullet wounds in the dead and the overall “handwriting.”

Paet goes on to say that there’s a quickly growing “understanding” that “behind the snipers was not [the ousted President Viktor] Yanukovich but somebody from the new coalition,” and that the coalition doesn’t want to investigate. That, however, was not the doctor’s conclusion, but rather Paet’s guess. Paet later denied assigning blame for the snipers to the new coalition and warned journalists against taking his words out of context.

The doctor later said that she didn’t tell Paet that both police and protesters had the same type of wounds, as she had only seen wounded and killed protesters and had no access to wounded or killed policemen.

As the leaked conversation cycles its way through the media frenzy, one truth remains unchanged: there is an urgent need for a thorough, impartial investigation into the February 19-20 killings.

The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe is well placed to deploy a team of human rights monitors experienced in investigating violence during civic unrest. That should happen as soon as possible.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/05/dispatches-leaked-call-wheres-truth-ukraine





You're showing broad interpretations.

Quote:

Estonia denied on Wednesday that a leaked telephone call showed that its foreign minister had blamed opponents of Ukraine’s deposed president for sniper killings during last month’s unrest - as Russian media have suggested.

The Baltic state acknowledged that the audio recording of a conversation between Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and European Union foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton was authentic, but rejected the way some have interpreted it.

The recording, published on YouTube, was picked up by Russian state television and was the top item on state news agency RIA-Novosti.

Rossyia-24 state TV dubbed parts into Russian and suggested the EU now had proof that sniper shootings at police and protesters had been carried out by the same people.

At least 88 people were killed in gunbattles between police and anti-government protesters in late February in Ukraine’s worst violence since Soviet times. Each side has blamed the other for using snipers.

In the leaked audio, Paet, speaking in imperfect English, says a doctor identified only as Olga had told him on a visit to Kiev that snipers may have come from the opposition.

“The same Olga told that, well, all the evidence shows that people who were killed by snipers from both sides among policemen and then people from the street,” Paet says.

“So that there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,” he said, referring to the former opposition to deposed President Viktor Yanukovich.

In a statement, the Estonian government denied Paet viewed the opposition as being involved in the sniping.

“Foreign Minister Paet was giving an overview of what he had heard the previous day in Kiev and expressed concern over the situation on the ground,” it said.

“We reject the claim that Paet was giving an assessment of the opposition’s involvement in the violence.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-estonia-eu-ukraine-idUSBREA2423O20140305




The article you linked doesn't make conclusions on US sniper collusion. It even says most of the gunfire came from police.

Quote:

Yakymenko said snipers started shooting at local police forces but then directed their fire on the anti-government protesters fighting the police. After the shooting, some of the snipers moved on to Hotel Ukraine. He added that the Maiden fighters appeared "prepared," leaving the barricades at the first sniper shot.

Yakymenko said Ukrainian nationalist groups Pravij Udar and Svoboda requested his help in clearing out the snipers, but Parubiy wouldn't allow government forces into Maidan-controlled territory. 

Yakymenko went on to claim that among the snipers were foreign mercenaries. While not making a direct connection between the United States and the snipers, Yakymenko suggested that the US embassy was somehow using Poland to orchestrate the overthrow of (now ousted) Yanukovych.

Pro-Russian news networks were not the only ones that suggested pro-Maidan snipers may have taken part in the shootings.

"The majority of the gunfire seemed to be coming from police lines," said BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse. "But not all of it." Gatehouse said he saw one of the shooters "wearing one of the protesters' green helmets," and shooting from an open window in Hotel Ukraine.

Gatehouse also spoke to British forensic experts on Feb. 24, who examined evidence from the sniper fire. They said the gunfire came primarily from the police. At least one sniper shot from the ground, while three shot from higher vantage points, said the investigators, whose faces were blurred. They all fired in the direction of Hotel Ukraine.

The first suggestion that the snipers might be pro-Maidan supporters came from a leaked phone conversation published by Russia Today — which is funded by the Kremlin — last week. The conversation, originally posted on YouTube, took place on Feb. 25, between European Union Foreign Affairs Chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian Foreign Affairs Minister Urmas Paet.

Paet is heard saying that a medic on site during the shootings said she thought the snipers were shooting at both the police and the protesters. The medic, whom Paet later referred to as "clearly a person with authority," added there was growing understanding that the shooters were not acting on the orders of Yanukovych, but rather the opposition. The Guardian ran with the story cautiously, headlining it with the words "bugged call reveals conspiracy theory."

https://theworld.org/stories/2014-03-14/who-were-maidan-snipers




I think koods said it well.

Quote:

koods said:
What the fuck does that have to do with the invasion?

You’re talking about violence against protesters 8 years ago as if that has anything to do with invasion by a foreign military.

Quote:

Russia's suggestion has been that the shooters were organized by the opposition to increase outrage against the governmen




At least that article names the party making the suggestion.




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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #28005740 - 10/19/22 02:02 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

sudly said:
The US funded al qaeda to materialise an invasion of their country.

Can't we say the US is fucked and shouldn't invade other countries, and that Russia is fucked and shouldn't invade other countries?

Why defend either!!




You're saying that Russia/Ukraine is the same as the U.S./Iraq/Syria. The similarities aren't even close.

Also, from the other thread you posted in

Quote:

sudly said:
It's a few minutes with talk of who they think a good leader would be. You can't reasonably extrapolate coup from that. You can postulate as evident.

Yanukovych's last minute decision to walk away from the EU deal by citing pressure from Russia for his decision after a year of touting it is what brought protesters to the streets.

Violence swelled on the Maiden after a new law was put in place banning all public protests.




There's a lot more that happened at the Maidan than you're touching on.




Here's the rest of my quote.

Quote:

Russia gave separatists weapons..
Since you've bought in to the idea of an unmonitored referendum of pro-Russian separatists after anaxxing a country, I have a bridge to sell you.

To me you've just said the annexed places were already annexed and you still haven't said you don't think Ukraine deserves to be militarily invaded.




You feed weapons into a country, start shit, invade, and do a land grab for resource control.

You haven't pointed out any differences. You've essentially just spouted a decade old conspiracy and said that's that, Ukraine deserves to be invaded.

And if you don't think that Ukraine deserves to be invaded then just say so.
:shrug:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #28006978 - 10/19/22 07:52 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Feeding weapons into a country before invading it is a tried and true tactic that the US has mastered and Russia copied.

You're the one who's bringing up sniper conspiracies in an attempt to justify the notion Ukraine deserves to be militarily invaded. You don't talk of land grabs and natural resources though, such an innocent view.

I don't think anyone's questioning that Ukraine will be left crumbled because it already has been, and only continues to be invaded.

All you've got is the idea that because Ukraine didn't give in to demands for its land it deserves to be invaded.

Comrad Stable, you serve the Motherland.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28007198 - 10/19/22 09:56 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

sudly said:
...an almost 97% swing doesn't raise an alarm or look like a red flag to you?



Sure it did.  That's why I travelled to Crimea in 2017 - to find out whether the West or Russia was lying.  After my trip, I realized that not only was 96% of the Crimean population pro-Russian, but the 4% who weren't acknowledged they were in a tiny minority.

Quote:

sudly said:
At least we've reached the point where you've more or less admitted to thinking Ukraine deserves to be militarily invaded, with your apparent inability to say you don't think so. Imo.



No, I don't think they deserved to be invaded, I simply explained the reasons they were.




You have said you do not think Ukraine deserves to be invaded, and yet you are arguing Ukraine shouldn't expect to be treated differently and that Russia is justified in their decision to militarily invade the rest of Ukraine, because they have already invaded and annexed part of it.

Because Ukraine didn't accept demands that involve losing their autonomy, that there was a sniper conspiracy, and you only have personal anecdotes to bolster the legitimacy of a trend in Russian annexed areas that involve the world's most convenient odds.

The only real talking point I've seen is that of the coup and the ousting of the President. With the protests and riots that led on from a president deciding to unilaterally overturn democracy by citing foreign pressure of economic santions and trade dispute.

@stable
You have not yet said you don't think Ukraine deserves to be militarily invaded.

I've said the US has illegally and offensively invaded several countries, that Russia is doing the same now, and that although Ukraine has issues related to political corruption, socio economic issues and civil unrest, it does not excuse Russia of culpability for a military invasion of Ukraine.

You are blatantly blaming Ukraine and attempting to justify the actions of Russia in militarily invading Ukraine.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #28007292 - 10/20/22 12:33 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

sudly said:
All you've got is the idea that because Ukraine didn't give in to demands for its land it deserves to be invaded.

Comrad Stable, you serve the Motherland.



I think Elon Musk had the right idea.  Let the people of the region decide, and quit arguing whose leader has a bigger dick.




So this is all just a dick swinging contest to you..

You keep referring to Donbas as though there was a legal referendum that took place.

Quote:

According to article 73 of the 1996 Constitution of Ukraine, and article 3 of the 2012 law on referendums, territorial changes can only be approved via a referendum if all citizens of Ukraine are allowed to vote, including those that do not reside in the area.

During the referendum in Crimea, the Central Election Commission of Ukraine also stated that there was no possibility for regional authorities to initiate such a referendum, according to Ukrainian legislation.

Allegations of fraud

The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) released an audio recording on 5 May that they said was a phone call between a Donetsk separatist leader named Dima Boitsov, and the leader of the far-right paramilitary Russian National Unity group Alexander Barkashov. In the recording, Boitsov said he wanted to postpone the referendum due to the DPR's inability to control all of Donetsk Oblast. Barkashov said that he had communicated with Putin, and insisted Boitsov hold the referendum regardless of the separatist leader's concerns. He suggested that Boitsov tabulate the results as 89% in favour of autonomy.

Separatists stated that the recording was fake. However, the 89% mentioned in the phone call exactly match the result of the referendum, which took place on 11 May 2014, i.e. several days after the recording had been published.

Swiss newspaper Tages-Anzeiger reported that voters were able to vote as many times as they wanted. Internal Affairs ministry officials branded the vote a farce, and said that just over 32 percent of registered voters in Donetsk Oblast participated in the vote.
According to Andrei Buzin, co-chair of GOLOS Association, there were significant irregularities in the organisation and holding of the referendum.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraines-rebels-say-they-are-seeking-a-mandate-not-independence-in-referendum/2014/05/10/f979d168-d853-11e3-aae8-c2d44bd79778_story.html




You haven't responded to any of the points I've cited or provided any solid evidence for the sniper conspiracy and hence it remains a conspiracy.

It was not a better long term deal for his people, it was a quick fix bandaid under economic pressure from Putin.

Have you ever been interested in Qanon?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28010941 - 10/22/22 03:50 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

sudly said:
You keep referring to Donbas as though there was a legal referendum that took place.

Quote:

According to article 73 of the 1996 Constitution of Ukraine, and article 3 of the 2012 law on referendums, territorial changes can only be approved via a referendum if all citizens of Ukraine are allowed to vote, including those that do not reside in the area.






It's great that you want the country to obey Ukraine's constitutional law.  Can you point me to the part of the Ukrainian constitution that says violent coups are allowed to overthrow the current government, and if so, that Ukrainian citizens are bound to obey the orders of the newly installed government?  :popcorn:

Quote:

sudly said:
You haven't responded to any of the points I've cited or provided any solid evidence for the sniper conspiracy and hence it remains a conspiracy.



Stable Genius did that for you here, and again here.

Quote:

sudly said:
It was not a better long term deal for his people, it was a quick fix bandaid under economic pressure from Putin.



Cheaper energy isn't a good deal for the people?  How did you come to the conclusion that more expensive energy is better?




There are differences between revolutions and coups.

Quote:

Allegations of an alleged coup d’etat in the downtown of Kyiv are typical rhetoric of the Kremlin, which thus justifies its own aggression. Putin himself mentions it again and again: at the Russian Security Council in January 2021, which preceded the recognition of the LPR and the DPR and the beginning of a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and at a “meeting” with Aeroflot workers in the spring of 2022, when the Russian military have already carried out active military actions in our territory.

The Revolution of dignity has absolutely no signs of a coup d’etat .

The main goal of the coup d’etat is to seize power by conspirators in conformity with their own interests. The Revolution of Dignity began with actions in support of the signing of the Association Agreement with the EU – Euromaidan – and later evolved into mass protests aimed at protecting human and civil rights and freedoms, democratic values. Power and profit have never been its goal. The result of the revolution was the ratification of the Agreement with the EU and the holding of fair presidential and parliamentary elections.
The conspiracy presupposes the presence of a small group of people and is in no way a mass phenomenon.

According to a sociological poll conducted in October 2014 by the Ilko Kucheriv Foundation for Democratic Initiatives, about 20% of Ukraine’s population, more than 8.5 million people, took part in peaceful rallies. The poll showed that most citizens perceived participating in the protests as a conscious struggle for their rights.

Other signs of a coup d’etat are unconstitutionality and violence, when weapons are the main tool to achieve the goal. All the events of the Revolution of Dignity took place in a constitutional manner, and the protesters began to use self-defense only after the escalation of violence by the authorities, which involved armed security forces to disperse unarmed protesters.

https://voxukraine.org/en/the-maidan-in-2014-is-a-coup-d-etat-a-review-of-italian-and-german-pro-russian-media/




And I replied to stable about the sniper conspiracy here,

Quote:

sudly said:
The US does have a history of meddling in the internal affairs of other countries like Ukraine through fiscal policies. To stretch beyond this with extraordinary claims, you require extraordinary evidence. 

Civil unrest became apparent during the term of Yanukovych when the Maidan Revolution took place and he was removed from office after ordering the murder of dozens of protestors.

You're asserting the US was involved in a coup with this as your only point of reference.

Quote:

She and the ambassador also discussed which members of Ukraine's opposition might be best to have in the government, and which should not be included.




Imo it's a big unfounded jump to say the US is responsible for the chaos of the Maiden revolution, and to therefore conclude Russia is in the green light to militarily invade a sovereign country.

You don't have proof that the US couped Ukraine in 2014. Russia sent military forces in to, and provided military aid to the Donbas region during the process of annexing it.

In no uncertain terms, you haven't denied that you think Ukraine deserves to be militarily invaded.




And now further here,

Quote:



https://static.poder360.com.br/2022/02/2014-Coup-1.pdf




It was a free trade agreement with Europe, and although it certainly is important, there are more elements to a society than just energy.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo] * 4
    #28010944 - 10/22/22 03:52 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Get ready for it.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28011005 - 10/22/22 05:03 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
That doesn't change the fact that what happens in Ukraine isn't Russia's business and it wasn't their place to intervene. :flowstone:



Donbas left Ukraine in 2014.




There was no legal referendum.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28011059 - 10/22/22 05:35 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Donbas left Ukraine in 2014.



There was no legal referendum.



I'll ask for the second time:  what part of Ukraine's constitution allows for violent overthrow of their government?




Again, these are the differences between revolutions and coups.

Quote:

Some violent collective behaviour is designed to change or overthrow governments. A coup d’état is the forcible removal of a head of government by the society’s own armed forces or internal security personnel. In a coup, the military takes action to overthrow the government with little or no involvement by the civilian population. Antagonistic relations between ethnic groups and rivalries within the military and civilian government are typical causes of coups.

A rebellion involves large-scale violence directed against the state by its own civilian population. Rebellions try to change the government or some of its policies but not the society itself. Intense government repression seems to deter rebellion, whereas mild repression tends to stimulate it. Thus, mild repression serves to outrage citizens but leaves them with the resources to organize resistance.

Revolutions can sweep away the old order. Unlike coups and rebellions, revolutions can cause radical changes in the institutions of government and bring about basic changes in society as a whole. The French Revolution destroyed the ancien régime and advanced ideas of social and political equality. The Russian Revolution of 1917 ended the Russian monarchy, introduced communism, and established the Soviet Union. Revolutions often involve collective acts of violence that are deemed justifiable by those who participate in such historic events.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/collective-violence/Coups-rebellions-and-revolutions




Where is it legal to militarily invade a sovereign country? It isn't, that goes for the US and Russia. A lot of things are illegal, even J walking is illegal, but conjuring a view based solely on the legality of an issue does not begin to address the complexity and context of dynamic political issues.

The Soviet Union was formed in 1917 through a revolution.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick] * 3
    #28011682 - 10/22/22 11:36 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

I don't think anyone here has supported the US invasion of 8 countries.

I think we are just discussing that Russia's actions in regard to Ukraine are not better than those of the US to places like Iraq, Afghanistan etc. But that they are rather similar in being unjustified military invasions related to land and natural resource grabs.

I think all anyone's really looking for here is recognition that both the US and Russia have and are partaking in horrendous acts, without the need to justify their actions and pacify resistance to either. 


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28011978 - 10/23/22 05:47 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Call it a revolution instead of a coup, I don't care.  Where in Ukraine's constitution does it allow for revolutions to overthrow government?




You can look at a revolution not within the constitution of Ukraine, and a leader whose actions are tyrannical, then choose which bed to make.

But it is clear that you obviously do not care about the Ukranian constitution and refer to it only when convenient.

Quote:

Article 73
Altering the territory of Ukraine IS resolved exclusively by an All-Ukrainian referendum.




Quote:

Article 2
The sovereignty of Ukraine extends throughout its entire territory.
Ukraine is a unitary state.
The territory of Ukraine within its present [ie 1996] border is indivisible and inviolable.




Constitutions can be amended.
Some revolutions are constitutional, and not all leaders are tyrannical.

The preamble of the American Consitution even discusses revolution.

Quote:

DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE (SHORTENED VERSION)

The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.




The right of revolution is not ascertained through surface level discussions and attempts to ignore nuance and context.

Quote:

In political philosophy, the right of revolution (or right of rebellion) is the right or duty of a people to "alter or abolish" a government that acts against their common interests or threatens the safety of the people without cause. Stated throughout history in one form or another, the belief in this right has been used to justify various revolutions, including the American Revolution, French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, and the Iranian Revolution.




All you seem to be saying is that it is justified to invade countries where a revolution has taken place.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Donbas was independent since 2014 and asked Russia for help.  Did they have a right to vote for their independence after an illegal revolution took over their elected government?  Since the government was illegitimate, I'd say of course.




I hope you do realise significant population movements are triggered by the unrest that results from secession attempts.

Alas, Donbas was never independent of Ukraine, there was no legal referendum that took place, and the whole of Ukraine had a right to vote on what happened after the revolution, it was not Russia's place to arbitrarily invade.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

sudly said:
The Soviet Union was formed in 1917 through a revolution.



If the Soviet Union declared Australia as a member country, would Australia be obligated to join?




If Australia was a part of the Soviet union, and this is analogous to Donbas being a part of Ukraine, you are conflating national unions with countries and their territory.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28013050 - 10/23/22 06:36 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Tyranny violates the individuals constitutional rights. That said, focusing solely on the consitutionality of an event does not address complexities or nuance.

Ukrainians have a right to peacefully protest, and the Ukranian government gave precedence to a right to revolution based upon the actions of the Ukrainian government against its people.

I get your stance is that Ukraine as a whole does not have a right to vote after a revolution, but the invaded, annexed territory of Donbass does.

You just keep restating your belief that the whole of Ukraine has no right to vote on Donbass.

All 13 colonies in America were involved in the American revolution. All of the colonies were involved in the decision, all of them, difference being, all of them.

Ukraine as a whole did not vote on Donbass or Crimea.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #28013054 - 10/23/22 06:40 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

So Ukraine is going to fake a nuclear attack to bait the West into nuking Russia.. I see.

Quote:

chopstick said I for one am totally disillusioned and detached from the fate of the millions of sheep who did absolutely nothing to stand against it, and who believed every single lie they were told, until the very end.




And you'll argue Russia was not the provakeur, that Ukraine is alone in collateral damage, you'll downplay separatist movements, ignore Russian propaganda, and overall attempt to justify their military interventions by painting them as dissimilar to historical US tactics abroad.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #28013372 - 10/23/22 10:16 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

sudly said:
So Ukraine is going to fake a nuclear attack to bait the West into nuking Russia.. I see.





That’s what I’m hearing, but it’s not to bait Russia, it’s a ploy to green light NATO involvement.

Ukraines military are having one last go at Kherson and that’s about all they’ve got left in the tank.
The only way Ukraine will win this is with NATO/U.S. forces.

The U.S. 101st Airborne are ‘conducting exercises’ on the Ukraine border now, and the press have been priming the public.




I didn't say to bait Russia.

You hear a story that says Ukraine is going to nuke itself and just go nah yeah sounds right..

Quote:

Russian defense minister Sergey Shoigu told is French counterpart Sebastien Lecornu that Ukraine was allegedly plotting to deploy a dirty bomb in an act of provocation.

"Shoigu expressed to his French counterpart his concerns about possible provocations by Ukraine with the use of a 'dirty bomb,'" the report reads.

The two top defense officials discussed the latest developments in Ukraine, "which are seeing a steady trend to further, uncontrolled escalation," as per the Russian defense ministry.

It should be noted that multiple Russian government-run media platforms, which had long gained notoriety for spreading disinformation and propaganda, on Sunday morning simultaneously span the same story claiming that Ukraine was intending to deploy a “dirty bomb.”

According to propaganda outlets, Ukraine is allegedly preparing to detonate a small-yield nuclear bomb on its territory in order to accuse Russia of using weapons of mass destruction and turn the whole world against Moscow.

At the same time, it is Russian officials and propaganda pundits who have repeatedly voiced threats to nuke Ukraine if deemed necessary.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ukrinform.net/amp/rubric-ato/3599339-russia-claims-ukraine-allegedly-preparing-to-use-dirty-bomb.html




Any direct NATO or US involvement is nuclear Armageddon.

This sounds like a piss poor attempt to pre-emptively justify the use of a tactical nuke on Ukraine, as a 'retaliatory' attack against a false flag provocation.


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