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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27688379 - 03/09/22 07:47 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Hi all, back from a period away from shroomery.
I've read the 24 pages...thanks to all for their contribute. This of Ukraine is an important matter. I'll share some of my opinions. I have the impression however that most of you fail (no offense) in considering it from a wider view.
Most depict it as a matter of US/NATO vs Russia/Eastern block.
In part it is, but i think there are wider (in space and time) geopolitical trends to keep in count: many if not all big potencies in history had their expansive/expansinistic phases and other more introspective/isolationist phases.
I don't know if most Americans have the perception of living in America's 'introspective' phase. After WW2 and until the first decade of 2000, USA were the awe of a large part of the world, who aimed to reach its lifestyle and model of democracy. This was the perception (right or not, truth or illusion) of most of the world. And american people (most of it, many of the average Joes) was all like "yeah we are the great USA, lets go there and show'em how we do democracy, even with bombs if needed". See Korea, Vietnam, South America, Middle East...
After Bush,i think with Obama, there has been a gradual inversion that became evident during Trump's presidency (Reasons of this should be discussed separately). Hence the retorical about "let's bring back home our boys", "No wars started during Trump mandate" etc...The nowadays average Joe doesn't care much about exporting democracy.
In the meanwhile new (actually much older) powers are emerging
China, who had an impressive growth in economics and geopolitical influence after a 1000 years isolationist era and in my opinion will take the inernational role that USA had.
And Russia wich had been after the WW2 the other world's 'lighthouse' before USSR started showing their contraddictions and cracked under their own weight. Now Putins Russia is starting a new period of xpansive (in a certain sense aggressive) foreign policy. I'd like to go deeper in this, but again this is to be argumented separately, because it's very interesting to notice that he is using innovative unconventional 'weapons' aside of traditional ones. And in doing so he is clearly taking advantage of the crisis and weakness of the US and western model.
Whats happening politically in Belarus, Turkey, Various countries of Eastern EU is a symptom of it; even some western EU countries is not immune from Putins charm.
Ukraine however was in the last 20 years progressively getting closer to EU. Surely this process was kicked in by EU and NATO, but i believe there are more inner Ukrainian cultural and economical reasons. But Ukraine is a very important land, both strategically and resource-wise speaking so it was unacceptable for Putin.

This is a very simplicistic resume of my tought about this, i didn't want to go too much in depth because it would take years. Just to put on the table some different point of view.
Sorry for grammar, usually i try to write in good english, but for such a long post it was too much work


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #27688425 - 03/09/22 08:50 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

In my previous post i wanted to show an 'objective' picture. for objective i mean 'what i see without my opinion'. obviously one may not agree with the picture, but i tried to be impartial.
Now, let's go with the opinions...and here i have some shit for all.

Putin is an autoritarian leader who is clearly invading a sovreign country telling lies to his people and to all the world. Lies with a small percentage of truth, of course: there is no genocide in Donbass; there is a civil war that he partially fomented and funded. A civil war that had its innocent victimes, but where most of casualties were armed people from one side or another.
Ukraine is not a nazi-fascist country, despite there are strong ultra-nationalistic (let's say nazi-fascist) components in its army (guilty of massacre during the protests in 2014) and government.  It should be noted that similar components are present in many armies, parliaments and governments of EU (and world). Not that i like it, but it's not a reason to bomb cities. In general i believe that doing so will increase ultranationalistic feelings. Also there are similar fascist components in Donbass Filo-Russians. So i dont belive Putin went there for denazification.
Finally it's a lie that NATO broke any agreements of not expanding in former USSR countries. there not exist any similar agreement. don't make me laugh speaking of verbal promises and so on...nobody would be so ingenuous to take it, expecially a Russian leader, expecially from USA.
He has a point however (at least in theory) in being concerned about this expansion, but i still believe he used it as an excuse: Ukraine in NATO was really not at the order of the day and also in this particular period NATO is not having a very expansionistic/aggressive agenda.

On the Western side i have to say that USA and UK (EU not so much) have been blowing on the fire, except leaving Ukraine alone when Russia attacked. I belive they had their interest in the situation, mainly economical interest: for example EU is a grat market for American liquid gas, more expensive than natural gas EU bought and still buys from Russia.
Also EU apart from umanitarian, is not giving much help to Ukraine, despite filling its mouth with propaganda about values of freedom and democracy. I understand going slow on a military envolvement, as nobody knows where it could end (maybe with the end of the world). But we as Europeans didn't even cut gas and oil import from Russia, cause 'we cant afford'. Fuck, we stand for freedom and democracy but we can't turn off or even reduce our home-heating while Ukrainians that we support are fighting in icy mud? pfff...pussies


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 5
    #27720397 - 04/04/22 03:19 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

I'm very sad for how this thread has developed. Very childish for the most.
There are intelligent posts but it's been monopolized by a few warmonger poster who actually don't do anything but parrotting Western or Russian propaganda, not even considering that the real situation can be just a bit more complicated, that there are nuances and that the truth can be somewhere in the middle or completely elsewhere.

And 'm not even saying one shouldn't take a side, if he feels. If you feel to back Putin or NATO, please feel free to. I personally hate them both, since long before this shit started, but it's not the point.
The point is that some of you is not able (or PRETEND not to be able) to question its own source. Like, assuming that anything a certain source is complete BS, then should it implicate that the other one is pure truth? Please grow up.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #27720627 - 04/04/22 09:58 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

i wasn't speaking specically about this last atrocity. this in particular seems to be binary: either the Russians did that mas graveyards, or the Ukrainians.
I'm talking, more than about single events, i'm talking about the war. Just to be clear, my take is that most of the responsibilities for this war fall on Putin. This doesn't mean that NATO doesn't have a share. This shouldn't make forget about wars and other...activities...NATO or US carried and are carrying on around the world. same for some EU countries. There are not plain good guys when it comes to geopolitics.
Also this shouldn't make anyone cheering on deaths from either side, please don't lose humanity.

there is much more, but what really piss me off is that passive acceptance of truth from some source, rarely questioned or checked. Even more rarely contextualized in a general wide frame.

for 'truth' here i dont mean the accuracy of single facts, but the depiction of the 'big picture' as good vs evil. keep in mind that modern propaganda (especially the effective one) isn't built up of complete lies. it's built on facts. It's about reporting the most convenient facts interpreting them the most convenient way. then, if needed, a pinch of lies are added in the soup.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #27721690 - 04/05/22 02:41 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

This shouldn't make forget about wars and other...activities...NATO or US carried and are carrying on around the world. same for some EU countries.



 
Sure , but if that's all you want to talk about , if you always want to deflect criticism of what Russia is doing to that and you pretend I have no right to criticize Russia because of shit that happened when I was a kid or wasn't born and you act like Russia is the just victim of western media reporting I'm going to assume you love what Russia is doing , you support the war and Its going to be really hard to have the same kind of respectful conversation we would about tax policy or gay cakes .


  If your main concern is stuff other countries are doing just say you support Russia's war and I'll respect your honesty .




No, I don't support Russia's war. Let's be clear and straight here: if it was for me, I'd beat the shit out of Putin's mouth after making him chew his own teeth. And this years before war started. even before Donbass shit started. even before my country media started saying that overall he was not that bad (yes, we had this period aswell). I don't like authoritarians. plain.

I also don't buy Russian propaganda lies and misrepresentation, and I'm not engaging with 'whataboutism' (here we call it 'benaltrism' wich you'd translate as 'wellotherism'), wich i consider a silly way to deflect criticism. You have surely right to criticize Russia. I do think we all have DUTY to do so, as much i felt the duty to criticize every imperialism, but this include western imperialism aswell.

But most of western media are in a propaganda phase too. So, when you question anything they'll count you as a Putins supporter, and i don't really accept this. For example, I see CNN as much as some media in my country depicting the war scenario as if UA army is winning the war and RUS army is being destroyed. It seems true that RUS are having a harder job than expected, and UA are surely brave and smart but...you know...the two armys are not even comparable, and UAF had been destroyed in the first days. This is confirmed by generals of NATO countries armys, but here (and i'd guess in USA is even worse), if you're not the army or air force commander, reporting this would be considered Putinism...if you read YOUR post here it's actually what you did on me, and i already clearly stated that this war is mostly Putins fault.
What i mean is that this kind of take from Media from the 'free world' is actually, indirectly, helping Russian propaganda. To be credible, West should think about its own fault. Not just ones when you were kid or not even born, current ones aswell. But keep in mind that also the 'old' mess have consequences still today


Edited by iggyhiggy (04/05/22 06:57 AM)


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 2
    #27721784 - 04/05/22 07:04 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
I don't negotiate with communists




I dont get this comment, but if you think that Putin is a Communist or that there is any form of Socialism in Russia you are very very very much wrong.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27721835 - 04/05/22 08:05 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Idk what to make of this but it does appear that Russian troops engaged in mass executions of civilians in a town they abandoned yesterday. One or two bodies in front of each house. Looks like they dragged residents out of their homes and executed them in the street. Really fucked up shit here that falcon will find a way to defend.

https://twitter.com/kiraincongress/status/1510249049357791234?s=21&t=Cw7h38TWViFL6KwihAWLKQ



Given the extreme amount of human rights violations we're hearing from the Ukrainians about the Nazis, and vast amount of fake news coming out of Ukraine, it's hard to know what you can believe.

Russia said “It’s particularity concerning that all the bodies of people whose images were published by the Kiev regime, after at least four days, have not stiffened, do not have characteristic cadaveric spots, and have fresh blood in their wounds”

Maybe they were Ukrainian traitors that helped the Russians and were then killed by Ukraine?  I won't pretend to know, but you sure will.




About the Bucha tragedy: there is an international (with russians too) investigation. For now we can just conjecture. there are a few considerations to do answering what you and others pointed out:

- satellite images show most of the same bodies in the video already there before liberation of Bucha, when Russians already were there. Bucha is in the Irpin area, it was controlled by Russian parachuted troops since the first days.
- other satellite images show excavation works during Russian occupation in the same places where a mass graveyard was found.
- body stiffness after death (rigor mortis) starts shortly (1-3 hours) after death, and doesn't last forever (max 2 days iirc). i can't judge if a body is rigid from a picture, but stating they weren't seems much of an unwilling admission of guilt
- some pointed out that corpses might have been moved there from somewhere else, as there is no blood around them. should be noticed that in the last days of Russian presence it had been raining strong there, so its also possible that blood has been washed away, and in part (depending on the quality of the ground) absorbed
- Russian claimed they might have been moved there frome elsewhere; but almost all the corpses have been identified, almost all were resident in Bucha and nearby

Also (but it's less factual) i heard interviews to survivor Bucha resident, he said that the occupants were all drunk and behaved like in a Safari (his words) shooting to anything was moving. He accused in particular a Brigade from Siberia, wich is actually reported being there those days

Someone (not here) suggested that they might have been killed because taking part in UA armed resistance. It's possible and it would make theme legitimate targets; but they have been found with their hands tied. so they must have been taken as prisoners before. so killing them is still a war crime.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27721850 - 04/05/22 08:25 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:


But that hasn't been determined yet.  In fact, there may be more evidence it was Ukraine than Russia.  But the investigations seem to have been shut down so that we can blame Russia.  Don't you WANT to find out who did it?





Man, this is a complete lie (except the first sentence, it actually hasn't been determined). International investigation has just started, and it even involves Russian members. where are these evidence pointing Ukraine?
I'm ok if you don't trust this investigation or its conclusions , but please dont just invent it's been shut down because it was pointing on ukrainians.
You are intelligent debater, i'm sure you can argue on your point, dont need to lie.
Don't you WANT to find out who did it?


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 2
    #27721905 - 04/05/22 09:24 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Watch "Media Desperately Whips Up Bucha War Crimes In Attempt To Start WW3" on YouTube




Watched, i'm just sorry i dont speak English, i might have missed some points.  But all around it seems to me the usual 'western media are liar and warmonger so i'll take what Russian Defense Minister for true' approach.
Again, this won't work on me. keep in mind that here we don't have media restrictions, so i'm litterally flooded with straight Russian propaganda; my neighbour (and friend) is openly Putinian (since long before war started).
I'll keep not considering Russian Army (as well as Ukraine Army) statements as reliable, especially during the war. In the video you posted i don't see evidences or valid arguments that the mass executions were made by ukrinians, apart those arguments that i already answered in the previous post.

On the other side i agree that USA (and UK) seem looking forward for WW3 to start and that G.I.Joe Biden should bite his tongue before calling Putin a butcher that should be removed (here he said in  other words but it's the same). Putin is still an asshole and all, but he's USA president and his speech could trigger a War that could be fatal for humankind and for the life on this planet.

Oh and if i cought well, the video also spoke about those Russian prisoners shot by Ukrainians. I agree that, if confirmed, it's a warcrime too.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27721939 - 04/05/22 10:07 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:



Lol you wouldn't do shit.





No, i actually wouldn't do this to a 70 yo man. i'd stay human. but he would deserve

Quote:


You're also buying Ukraine's lie about the Bucha massacre (which they carried out and blamed on Russia), despite it not even being the first time they have done something like this.





No, i'm not. I just pointed a few things that made me think Russians did that. But as i said (as i don't pretend to have any truth in my pocket) it has to be determined. i wish a serious, unbiased  commission works it out.

What makes you be so SURE about what you say? Lack of source questioning? or again you have secret superlegit sources that you dont want disclose, preferring to show questionable sources? Last time you answered a bit vaguely

That Illia Kiva seems quite a shady guy in my POV. Let alone supporting a stranger country invasion, but look at before...he is a career politician of doubtful moral, considering his frequent U-turnings (do you say so?) in politics...I'm ok with people changing their mind but sometime looks like opportunism.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27721977 - 04/05/22 10:35 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

What does he gets out? not sure but...maybe money, maybe not being killed or arrested after Russia took over Ukraine? maybe power positions in the new after-Ukraine? who knows?

Maybe he just followed his conscience in supporting Russian invasion, but even if it was the case (mind, i'm not at all dismissing this option), he is not in Ukraine anymore since before the invasion. What makes you think his statements are legit?


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27722806 - 04/06/22 02:46 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Quote:

chopstick said:



🤣😂  this is  golden



nice one, i like it
irony is always a good thing


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27722819 - 04/06/22 03:23 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

iggyhiggy said:
Quote:


But that hasn't been determined yet.  In fact, there may be more evidence it was Ukraine than Russia.  But the investigations seem to have been shut down so that we can blame Russia.  Don't you WANT to find out who did it?





Man, this is a complete lie (except the first sentence, it actually hasn't been determined). International investigation has just started, and it even involves Russian members. where are these evidence pointing Ukraine?
I'm ok if you don't trust this investigation or its conclusions , but please dont just invent it's been shut down because it was pointing on ukrainians.
You are intelligent debater, i'm sure you can argue on your point, dont need to lie.
Don't you WANT to find out who did it?



Yes, I DO want to find out who did it.  My comment was based on the UK's rejection of Russia’s request for a UN meeting on the events in Bucha.

If you're aware of an investigation that includes both sides, I'm happy it's getting done, and I'd love to know your news source because I didn't see that information.




Source is UN

https://unric.org/en/un-calls-for-an-independent-investigation-on-bucha/?msclkid=ec108fafb58711ecb76e1320601ac132

the investigation is done by the International Criminal Court on both side of the line.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
    #27722820 - 04/06/22 03:27 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:



Or maybe they are nazis fighting nazis.




I'd bet on this


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27724160 - 04/07/22 03:10 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:


That doesn't say both sides are investigating Buchra.  It says the UN has staff in seven offices on both sides of the contact line.

I'd be VERY surprised if you found any evidence indicating that they are allowing Russia to participate in the Buchra investigation.




Right, it doesn't explicitly say that. I actually also heard that Russia will take part in the investigation in an interview to a UN Commissioner. Sorry, right now  i'm not able to find it, but i'll try to.

On a side note, Russia is an important member of UN, with veto right, security council, International Court of Justice (has a judje in it) wich is not the International Criminal Court, but also has started (actually is about to start) an investigation. I think the investigation that will involve Russia is the ICJ. I'm not sure about the ICC one because Russia (and USA) didn't ratified its statute.

If you ask me how an international investigation and trial works, i don't know, i'm not an expert in international jurisprudence.
But I'd be VERY surprised if you found any evidence indicating that the ICJ in NOT allowing Russia to participate in the Buchra investigation.


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27725212 - 04/08/22 03:30 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

iggyhiggy said:
Quote:


That doesn't say both sides are investigating Buchra.  It says the UN has staff in seven offices on both sides of the contact line.

I'd be VERY surprised if you found any evidence indicating that they are allowing Russia to participate in the Buchra investigation.



Right, it doesn't explicitly say that. Sorry, right now  i'm not able to find it, but i'll try to.

On a side note, Russia is an important member of UN...



The US just proposed a resolution to the United Nations’ General Assembly to suspend Russia from the UN Human Rights Council. The resolution passed, receiving 93 votes, with 24 members opposed and 58 abstaining.  That should make it a little easier for the West to get away with war crimes.  :smirk:

Quote:

iggyhiggy said:
But I'd be VERY surprised if you found any evidence indicating that the ICJ in NOT allowing Russia to participate in the Buchra investigation.



I couldn't find any evidence that the ICJ is even involved in the investigation.  :shrug:




As the link I gave, ICJ called for the investigation. I think there will be the investigation. If you ask me, the possible exclusion of Russia due to its expulsion from the Human Right Council would put a shadow on the reliability of the invesigation.
And if you also ask me, i find it very unfair that USA still are in the HRC considered all the violation in the past. But here we should question the whole functioning of the UN, wich could be interesting but OT

About the torture and execution of Russian prisoners by UA army, i belive it should be obvious (but it seems it isn't) that they are warcrimes too and should be investigated and possibly sentenced. Human treatment to prisoners must be guaranted and once they're prisoners they're under your responsibility


Edited by iggyhiggy (04/08/22 03:47 AM)


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27725221 - 04/08/22 03:57 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Ssshh don't mention the ICC



:lol:  The US is smart enough to stay far away.  :lol:




Not sure if I miss the point...why shouldn't I mention? they are who actually started the first investigation.

If it's a joke about USA (and Russia) not being part of it...well it doesn't depend on me, but it doesn't even surprise, considering they are quite disposed  for human right violation


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Offlineiggyhiggy
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 2
    #27765560 - 05/06/22 07:20 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I've been away for a while and took some time to read all I missed,
The discussion doesn't seem to have substantially evolved however, except a tendence to go 'semantics':rolleyes:
As a disclaimer, please dont ever try to involve me in too much of semantic debate because i'm not interested and in this context in particular i'd say it's even a bit disrespectful for people suffering the effect of the war.
On my side i preventively recognize that i tend to use hyperboles and metaphores, so don't take my words too much on the letter.

Back to the substance, i see that (among other relevant things) the debate is open about the relation between the price (or value?) of ruble over western currencies and the gas export.
I'm not an expert in monetary policy and finance in general, but i'd like to answer to Falcon (who is repetedly answering the question) that i would not directly link the two things (gas export and currency value), and more in general i would not rely on the price of a certain currency to tell if its country economy is doing good or bad. The price of a currency can be significatively altered by a country according to the its economical policy, and doesn't have to really reflect the situation. History is full of examples of that.
As an anecdote, Bosnia is probably the poorest (or around there) of the Balkans region (and probably in whole Europe). Nontheless, its currency (Konverted Mark) is quite pricey (0,5€ is high if you think that countries with stronger economies have cheaper currencies). When I've been there people often preferred to be paid in euro and sometimes were giving discounts if I paid in euro. On the other hand Italy (not a superpower, but still in G7 and so on) had its Lira changed at 0,002€ (ie, 2000 Lira were changed with 1 Euro).

Now to be clear (hoping not to have my words twisted) i'm not saying there is no connection at all. Just that i would not rely on that.
Personally (but also from what i hear on news, that here seem to be a bit less one-sided than in USA) I have the impression that Russian economy is resisting to the sanctions better (or longer atleast) than what western countries expected (or atleast than what western propaganda depicted). Some balanced analyst said on an interview that it's probably the reason why USA and UK want the war to last long: he described sanctions as 'slow weapons' that hurt over the long period. So they just want Ukraine to resist waiting for the sanctions to work.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 1
    #27765571 - 05/06/22 07:31 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Interviews where people report that the Russians are requiring Ukrainian citizens to speak Russian. Schools are reopening with classes being taught in Russian. It’s cultural imperialism




I heard about similar stuff. need to be confirmed, but the signal change is quite telling. It's worth noting that UKR government imposing Ukrainian over Russian language was one of the arguments for Putin to call the genocide. I recognize it was an openly ultra-Nationalist imposition. But i don't see a big difference here, as i don't see much of a difference between US imperialism and Russian one


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick] * 2
    #27765612 - 05/06/22 07:54 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

chopstick said:
We're still a little early in the empire collapse phase. Sooner or later a choice will have to be made to either start ww3 to try to 'save' this empire's dominance and control, or just let it go and finally withdraw from all 9 million military bases that said empire is running globally, and stop trying to bully the entire world into submission, thereby accepting reality and moving on.




And here is a statement of your where we finally agree. If someone recall my maybe first post on this thread, i was pointing out the end of the US hegemony as one of the cause of the conflict.
What I dont get is why do you think that a (for example) Russian hegemony would be preferable.


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