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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick] * 2
    #27688811 - 03/09/22 04:35 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

1. Glad to see fal posting here again

2. There are certainly huge swaths of Ukraine nationalists, many of whom are literally Nazis, like Azov, fucking NATO tweeted out a pic of one of them wearing a Nazi patch earlier and got bullied into deleting it.

3. Putin is absolutely using these Nazis and ultra nationalists as an excuse to justify Russia’s invasion, despite them not being representative of the nation or it’s military as a whole.

4. Ukraine historically IS part of Russia, not that it gives Putin the right to invade, but there are a shitload of people in Ukraine that see themselves as culturally Russian, mostly in the East, obviously.

5. Zelenskyy got put into power as the centrist who wouldn’t antagonize the nationalists, but this also meant he couldn’t be campaigning to join NATO or the EU a shitload. Him being Jewish was a benefit/liability depending on which demo you’re looking at, and certainly doesn’t prove Ukraine is or isn’t racist.

6. It is impossible to know what’s actually going on during this whole thing because both sides have been caught lying dozens of times. But me personally, I can’t see what Putin hopes to gain out of this that will offset what it’s going to cost. There may be a reason beyond my scope, based on facts we’re not privy to, but it’s pretty fucking hard to imagine at this stage.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27690674 - 03/11/22 08:11 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)




Kamala’s weird instinct to laugh hysterically when faced with a tough question gets her in trouble yet again.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #27690686 - 03/11/22 08:18 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I support coups over invasions...I guess?
I mean, I don't really support either tbh and I don't see how opposition to one equals support for the other.

I'm pragmatic enough to believe that western and russian actors have had thier fingers in the Ukraine pot. I haven't seen anything to make me believe that Russia is all benevolence and rainbows NATO and the EU are all kid diddlers and war criminals.




Yes both sides have blood on their hands, and both sides have reasons for getting so bloody.

One doesn’t need to take Russia’s side in anything to say that the Western position on Russia since VE Day has been “we are going to suffocate you.” At a certain point, Russia was bound to respond in desperation. Now that they are, Westerners want to throw their arms up in indignation, I think that’s what bothers me most about the discourse. But of course this was always going to be the discourse, we’re not going to receive accurate historical analysis from the media of the nation that deliberately staged a coup there in 2014. History doesn’t go back that far.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27690696 - 03/11/22 08:30 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Well of course. We have to do something! And that something is (clearly) lay siege to a nation of 150M people because our government considers their government an enemy.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27690953 - 03/11/22 11:40 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
What  did we do exactly when this coup was staged ? Was it before or after the protests and the pro Russian President fled ? What happened in Ukraine prior to this ?

  It seems like the protests started in 2013 and in Jan and feb of 2014 they were shooting protestors .
  Did we cause that ?




By all intents and purposes, yes.

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
NATO and democracy has never been a threat to the poor Russian peasants , its threat to people like Putin and his buddies .





Tell that to the Russian people who saw their life expectancy cut in HALF as a result of Western aggression and the collapse of the USSR.

It’s like saying Al Qaeda isn’t a threat to Americans in the wake of 9/11, if bin Laden had killed 50 million Americans instead of a paltry 3,000.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27690959 - 03/11/22 11:43 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

One of the things that bothers me most about the discourse is the constant refrain of 'US orchestrated coup' because it reduces the people of Ukraine down to pawns of geopolitical powers without any agency of their own. The presence of NATO/US influence and dollars during euromaidan is indisputable, but none of that should take away from the agency of the Ukrainian people, nor the deeply unpopular actions of the Ukrainian state at the time. The US didn't create a popular movement, it took advantage of one.




A distinction without a difference.

Nobody seemed to have issue with dismissing the agency of the Ukrainian people a few years ago in Donetsk and Crimea, or bothered pointing out that Russia was simply taking advantage of ethnic Russian areas in the East.

Citizens who disagree with US foreign policy goals are hapless pawns of Putin, citizens who agree with US foreign policy HAVE AGENCY, but are unfortunately being taken advantage of. What a convenient conclusion for one to reach.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #27691048 - 03/11/22 12:48 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
We have a 500 billion dollar budget advantage.  I wonder who has more aircraft, guns, bombs, and tanks.  Basically who's got more steel?  900,000 untrained Chinese soldiers with BB guns?  Well wipe the fuckin floor with them

If you add up the whole worlds military expenditure it barely surpasses the US




It’s so funny to me the syntheses of Brookings Institute fellows and Alex Grey paintings that inhabit this website.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #27691052 - 03/11/22 12:51 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Who gives a shit if Russia is justified have some fuckin patriotic pride Russia has been our enemy since ever.  Fuck this facist scumbags.  Just cuz Ukraine sucks too doesn't mean Russia isn't evil.  I say we let Ukraine get demolished and then surprise bomb it and then take over Russia and have gas prices go down to a buck a gallon.  If China wants some well nuke them too!




My man is really the id of zappaisgod


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27691087 - 03/11/22 01:18 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Sorry, by “nobody” I’m referring to the self serving demons that are dictating the discourse of this conflict to the people discussing it in this thread.

As for your point about the chess game, I disagree. Chess is the game they’ve decided to play. They get to decide the game because they have the power. Only way to get power and change the game is to beat them at chess. That’s the historical framework of any battle ever won for the improvement of human society. And that doesn’t mean we have to adopt their tactics, only that in order to diminish their power you need to meaningfully attack that power.

To the FBI intern reading this, this is of course just a theoretical discussion about power.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27691582 - 03/11/22 07:22 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Maybe that decision should be re-examined




We already went back on every other negotiation to topple the Soviets why not this one too?

Also, how is it that Putin feels he has the political capital to attack the interests of the West? I will never know.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27691685 - 03/11/22 08:48 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
He’s a dictator who doesn’t need political capital.




I guess we’ll see.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27691811 - 03/11/22 10:16 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Rachel Maddow is now rehabilitating Hitler in order to attack Russia:

https://twitter.com/maddowblog/status/1502499687290617856?s=21


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27692106 - 03/12/22 06:52 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Very true, sometimes the military does experiments on our own population just for shits and giggles.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27692109 - 03/12/22 06:59 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
There’s nothing in what she said that rehabilitates hitler. Your cynicism is running wild.




“Not even Hitler killed ethnic Germans!”

First of all, patently false, there was this thing called the Holocaust. Second, a clear implication that Putin is worse than Hitler.

My cynicism isn’t the issue here. It’s psychos like Maddow who constantly have to pretend another Holocaust is happening because… Russia.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Skellies] * 2
    #27692597 - 03/12/22 02:46 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

austothehun said:
Quote:

koods said:
Calm down




It’s funny how dramatic some of these people get about Western media when Russian media is cheering on the “special military operation” and reporting the facts is being cracked down on.




Let’s see.

I can either

A) criticize Holocaust denial of my own nation’s media, where I can ostensibly affect some change

Or

B) criticize Russia’s media, and have zero affect other than cheerlead the State Department and their own stenographers and think tanks already doing exactly that.


It’s always the absolute dullards that think buying into your own country’s propaganda is somehow more virtuous and patriotic than criticizing it. For a nation that jerks itself off constantly about its own revolutionary and insurgent inception, y’all sure do love toeing the Official Line, and think you deserve praise for doing so. The same idiots who were on here pissing and moaning about women’s rights in Afghanistan when Biden decided to pull troops out, as if the Pentagon actually gave a shit about women’s rights in an nation they’ve been decimated for a generation. But yes they certainly care about a free press in Russia.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27692613 - 03/12/22 03:05 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

https://twitter.com/maddowblog/status/1502667695745114114?s=21

They got called out by the Auschwitz Museum and had to delete it.

I can’t believe the Auschwitz Museum are Putin stooges smh


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 1
    #27692654 - 03/12/22 03:33 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

They have to be, why else would they push back against the idea that he is worse than Hitler?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27692712 - 03/12/22 04:06 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Idk man. Cui bono?

Saying Hitler is worse than Putin only helps Putin. Clearly some sort of Russian mind control tactics at play here.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27692714 - 03/12/22 04:08 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

chopstick said:
Iran just hit a US base in Iraq with ballistic missiles in response to an Israeli airstrike that killed 2 of their officers a few days ago.

Well isn't that just great. At this rate the whole planet will be on fire before we even make it to the end of the year.




Wow dude what do you have against Israel?

This thread is about an authoritarian state taking over lands of their weaker neighbors, got nothing to do with Israel.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Skellies]
    #27692929 - 03/12/22 06:36 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

austothehun said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

A) criticize Holocaust denial of my own nation’s media, where I can ostensibly affect some change

Or

B) criticize Russia’s media, and have zero affect other than cheerlead the State Department and their own stenographers and think tanks already doing exactly that.





Quote:

It’s always the absolute dullards that think buying into your own country’s propaganda is somehow more virtuous and patriotic than criticizing it.




If you think the cause or consequence of that was equivalent to Holocaust denial… I’m not sure what to say.

But its not the criticism of Maddow specifically, it’s the overall nihilistic attitude that “well both countries do propaganda”, as if they exist in a similar media environment and have similar effects.

Russia’s propaganda has most of the country supporting an unprovoked invasion. Anyone who takes an honest look at the situation would have to acknowledge that West’s narrative isn't just less harmful in this situation, it’s more accurate too.




Yeah luckily the western media has never had most of the country supporting an unprovoked invasion.

The important takeaway here is all governments do propaganda and none of its respective citizens are immune to it. And to that end, none of us have a fucking clue what is actually going on with respect to Ukraine. Clearly a Russian invasion is unwarranted, and as such their propaganda machine has a steeper battle than ours does (convince Americans to risk nuclear war over a country none of them could find on a map). But sitting here saying “Russia is doing propaganda” is about as fucking useless as saying “Saddam is a dictator” in 2004.


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