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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27672484 - 02/24/22 11:59 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The US agreed not to expand NATO eastward around the time East Germany reunited with West Germany.

West promised not to expand NATO




I'm not convinced this is some sort of smoking gun that proves much :shrug:

In the minutes of that meeting, this was also said
Quote:

'We could not therefore offer membership of NATO to Poland and the others. We might however consider referring to our interest in these countries in future NATO declarations.'



That doesn't sound like an unwavering promise that carries any weight to me?


Also NATO's website says

Quote:

Claim: NATO promised Russia it would not expand after the Cold War

Fact: Such an agreement was never made. NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949 – and that has never changed. This “Open Door Policy” is enshrined in Article 10 of NATO’s founding treaty, which says “any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic” can apply for membership. Decisions on membership are taken by consensus among all Allies. No treaty signed by the United States, Europe and Russia included provisions on NATO membership.

The idea of NATO expansion beyond a united Germany was not on the agenda in 1989, particularly as the Warsaw Pact still existed. This was confirmed by Mikhail Gorbachev in an interview in 2014: "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was not discussed at all, and it wasn't brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either."

Declassified White House transcripts also reveal that, in 1997, Bill Clinton consistently refused Boris Yeltsin's offer of a 'gentlemen's agreement' that no former Soviet Republics would enter NATO: "I can't make commitments on behalf of NATO, and I'm not going to be in the position myself of vetoing NATO expansion with respect to any country, much less letting you or anyone else do so…NATO operates by consensus."




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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27672579 - 02/25/22 03:26 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

That's right, it's beyond bureaucrats to be able to offer such an assurance so it's a redundant argument :shrug:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 3
    #27673082 - 02/25/22 01:08 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Regardless of the politics there's something to be said for an unarmed woman telling a soldier with a gun he's a piece of shit  :thumbup:

Some excellent propaganda here from The Guardian.



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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27673100 - 02/25/22 01:27 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Let's look at the full context:





Ok.

Quote:

Decisions on membership are taken by consensus among all Allies.


Did that occur? No :shrug:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm#c203


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673111 - 02/25/22 01:33 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Russia's not going to reclaim Ukraine.  They haven't even claimed the separatist regions, just recognized them as independent.




They're most likely going to further ruin the country and that's about it. Ukrainians don't want their country split, even in the east.

Maybe Russia could stop supporting a minority in a civil war, perhaps that'd help seeing as they're so concerned about peace?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673292 - 02/25/22 04:33 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Maybe the US shouldn't have orchestrated a coup to put in a US friendly President in charge of Ukraine in the first place?  That's when the Russian friendly territories separated (Eastern Ukraine declared their independence in 2014, while Crimea voted to rejoin Russia).

Russia actually made many efforts for peace over the years, but they have all been interfered with by the US.  Plus Ukraine ignored the Minsk agreements.

Too bad Zelensky's become such a puppet of the West.




Valid points for sure, I wish we had better balanced news reports.

However, the only way out now for Russia is to further annexe a region that is minority pro Russian, that's just as obnoxious as U.S. interference.
Ukraine is only strategic to The West if it intends an invasion, which just isn't going to happen. Russia needs to get rid of the war hawks still living in the past, that'd help a shit ton more than any friendly invasion incursion rubber stamped border crossing.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 2
    #27673303 - 02/25/22 04:42 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
putin wants to bring Ukraine to its knees so they think they have no other choice but to join Russia.





That'll never happen.

The idea of a 'neutral buffer country' with autonomous regions maybe, but until the U.S. backs off that won't happen either.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673340 - 02/25/22 05:07 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Well from the links I posted somewhere? earlier.

I don't have a problem with your view that Crimea has a majority pro Russian population but I don't believe the same is so for the eastern regions.

Perhaps if Russia stopped supplying the ammo and offered a free one way trip over the border to anyone who took up the offer of the free passports they've been handing out instead?

The armed casualties on both sides are reasonably close = Russia has spent the last 8 years dribbling weapons into the separatists. They ARE a part of the problem here.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673380 - 02/25/22 05:30 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
the only way out now for Russia is to further annexe a region that is minority pro Russian



What do you mean by "minority pro Russian"?  Do you have a source for that?





https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27671588#27671588

I was reading through that Wiki link you posted, it's very difficult to work out what the real % is.

There was plenty of irregularities on both sides.

Particularly this one
Quote:

The day before the referendum, it was reported in Ukrainian media that a group of pro-Russian separatists in possession of a 100,000 ballots already marked with a 'yes' vote for the referendum were captured during the ongoing government "anti-terrorist" operation, and that the ballots were seized by government forces. Local news reported that polling in some occupied schools had already begun a day in advance.[27][47][48]




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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673418 - 02/25/22 06:19 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

It'd probably be a lot easier if they crossed the border and racked off to Russia instead of dragging their country through a conflict with no end in sight.

The majority of Ukraine don't want to join Russia, they're being dragged into a conflict they don't want.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673445 - 02/25/22 06:48 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I guess that's one way to solve the problem.  "If you don't like it here, just leave".





Well if they aren't in the majority it's home grown terrorism backed and fomented by the Russian government  :shrug:

Also, it's far from unanimous on whether everyday Russians agree with an armed incursion either.

I honestly don't think Putin has read the tea leaves correctly.

https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/5-polls-contextualize-russia-ukraine-crisis


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673512 - 02/25/22 08:05 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Maybe I'm interpreting the results differently than you, but here's what I'm seeing:


In the event of an outbreak of hostilities in eastern Ukraine, should Russia engage in armed conflict on the side of the DPR/LPR?
Yes 43%
No 43%
Difficult to answer 14%





That's the numbers I was looking at, the same article also said,

Quote:

Only 43% of respondents reported that they believe Russia should intervene in a conflict (18% said definitely yes, 25% were somewhat supportive) and another 43% reported that Russia should not intervene (25% were not very supportive and 18% said definitely not). This perhaps implies that while many Russians would support the Donbass being united with Russia, they have a lower threshold for the deleterious effects associated with engaging in an armed conflict



That's far from a clear majority backing armed conflict even with the one sided news.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27673578 - 02/25/22 09:32 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This is a really interesting interview of Scott Ritter by Richard Medhurst.  Probably too long for most here to watch, but Scott really has an interesting perspective on the conflict. 

I'm posting this because he talks about America's assurances not to expand NATO Eastward (from 33:27-34:11).






Ya know, that's probably the most logical commentary so far. Good video :thumbup:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27673608 - 02/25/22 10:08 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Scott Ritter was brutally honest and made a lot of sense.

Always good value having a robust discussion with you Falcon  :cool: :thumbup:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
    #27676937 - 02/28/22 01:20 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Falcon posted this in another thread showing the U.S. government's shitfuckery involved in the events leading up to this mess so it belongs here seeing as they have their fingers all over this.

Yes it's JIMMY DORE but Aaron Mate does most of the talking and he's a very good talker, calling the Russian invasion what it is, an invasion.

He lays out how the fuck ups started with Bush, continued with Obama, then helped along by Trump and Biden.

Watch the vid and comment IF YOU DARE. If not, just watch it.



Edit, forgot to add Biden


Edited by Stable Genius (02/28/22 01:41 PM)


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677073 - 02/28/22 03:23 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Really? I watched and thought Putin’s still a cunt and the U.S. government aren’t too far behind him.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27677093 - 02/28/22 03:47 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

You didn’t watch it? No worries  :thumbup:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677098 - 02/28/22 03:53 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
At least my govt tells me when we are going to war Lol .



All the shitfuckery behind the scenes doesn’t count then?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677105 - 02/28/22 03:57 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
    We should invade Canada , did you see the trucker parade ? Nothing but Nazis up there .




Nah, you guys have helped the world enough already.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677119 - 02/28/22 04:13 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Count for being part of the problem.


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