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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27672573 - 02/25/22 03:11 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I don't think there is any point to try to argue with Falcon or Ecstatic that we didn't promise to not expand NATO eastward. They both think that the fact that any such agreement was made without the OK of the President of the United States (Clinton or HW Bush) is not relevant.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: insanebloodbrain] * 1
    #27672666 - 02/25/22 06:17 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

insanebloodbrain said:
Given the terrible choice, i would feel more confident with Trump as the POTUS in this situation. Bidens drooling-tarded inability to speak feels very unreliable and unsecure lol. He sounds like hes going to pull a Stalin and suddenly run and hide in disbelief and shock




WTF!??  Stalin can be criticized for a lot of things, but running and hiding was never on the list. I would ask you to explain that comment, but it's probably not worth anyone's time.

If Trump was President, the Generals would be explaining to him, the way you talk to a child, that no we aren't going to assist with the invasion to liberate Ukraine. Trump has been cheerleading Putin on this, and he's trying to backtrack now, but even most Republicans are wishing he would just shut up.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 2
    #27672819 - 02/25/22 09:17 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
@bj
It's hilarious how you infer the generals WOULDNT BE TALKING to biden the exact same way.




Sort of, Biden's slow witted too, except Biden wouldn't be on Putin's side. I'm thinking grasping the obvious is not one of your strong points.

Also, the things you capitalize and don't capitalize, are you trying to recreate the Sex Pistols album cover or something? Never mind.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #27672830 - 02/25/22 09:34 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

He's greedy, but he's getting less rich by the minute paying his defense attorneys.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27673514 - 02/25/22 08:06 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I don't think there is any point to try to argue with Falcon or Ecstatic that we didn't promise to not expand NATO eastward. They both think that the fact that any such agreement was made without the OK of the President of the United States (Clinton or HW Bush) is not relevant.



I just quoted the promise above.  I agree with you that it wasn't put in a treaty, and we don't know if it had the OK of the President, but the promise was made.

Russia learned that US promises can't be trusted, and agreements need to be put in writing in the future.




We do know it didn't have the OK of the President. I have been checking and rechecking that since this debate started.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673850 - 02/26/22 05:21 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.




https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078929982/a-look-at-the-debate-over-nato-expansion-eastward-thats-at-the-heart-of-conflict
This one said James Baker floated the idea to Gorbachev in return for German unification. Gorbachev said he would think about it. When Baker got home HW Bush said no way.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27674641 - 02/26/22 06:04 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.




https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078929982/a-look-at-the-debate-over-nato-expansion-eastward-thats-at-the-heart-of-conflict
This one said James Baker floated the idea to Gorbachev in return for German unification. Gorbachev said he would think about it. When Baker got home HW Bush said no way.



Fair enough.  Did the US ever tell Russia we're backing down on our promise?  Russia doesn't seem to think so.
They now know they should never trust the US again.




What promise? There never was one.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27677887 - 03/01/22 06:16 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
You didn’t watch it? No worries  :thumbup:




I'll watch it if you can edit out the Jimmy Dore parts.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27679345 - 03/02/22 08:31 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I'm not making excuses for Putin, nor was Aaron Mate, nor was Oliver Stone.

Everyone agrees that he has gone too far.

All I was trying to say was there's a lot that has gone on before this to lead to this point and after watching that other doco that syncro posted yeah, there IS a neo-Nazi element in Ukraine. Western Ukraine sided with the Nazi's in WW2.




OK, but I'm with Psicomvb. The invasion has nothing to do with Ukranian neo-Nazi tendencies.

In the U.S. many German Americans sided with the Nazis since the 30's. Since then disaffected non-Germans found a home in the American extreme right. Ukranians would have more reasons than people here do to feel this way, both socioeconomic and from being part of the Soviet Union for 70 something years. But it has nothing to do with why Putin invaded.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27681542 - 03/03/22 08:27 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Putin just gave a speech and said he believes Ukraine has always been part of Russia and that he is saving half of the population that was tricked by the Nazis .
   
  Gotta listen to both sides of the argument bro .




I guess it was a month or two ago, Putin said in reference to Ukraine, "Lenin took it. It belongs to us." Not a word about Nazis then.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312]
    #27681980 - 03/04/22 05:12 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I get it. If a fascist flag appears at a protest you should invade the country and kill as many people as possible, because if not that would be ridiculous.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312] * 1
    #27682175 - 03/04/22 08:29 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wolf8312 said:
Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Idk man it's not just coming from "one fascist flag at a protest". A few of Ukraine's politicians placed in high level position were members of the "Social Nationalist" Party of ukraine, until they changed their name to something less obviously nazi inspired.

Not saying it justifies anything but cmon, really... this isnt like "trump is nazi bc i saw a a nazi flag at his rally" this is more like if trump had appointed a dude from the National Socialist Party of America as his VP and hired 4 NatSoc cronies in other high level positions.

Just tryna paint the full picture here...




I have heard there are indeed genuine Neo-Nazis in Ukraine. Not sure how much truth there is to this myself as it’s the standard excuse for every invasion nowadays but I’ve heard a lot of those stories. Almost impossible to verify anything for sure these days though!




There are indeed genuine Neo-Nazis in the U.S., Canada, most if not all European countries, and many South American countries (where the actual genuine German Nazis fled to). Africa and Asia remain relatively unblemished.

So what does any of this have to do with the Russian invasion of Ukraine?


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: christopera] * 1
    #27682210 - 03/04/22 09:04 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
I think it is that Putin claimed to be fighting Neo Nazi's in Ukraine. Which while fairly disingenuous regarding his real intentions, is at least partially true.




It's true in terms, of are there Nazis there. Ukraine is probably among the worst, but it's a fairly long list. I think Assante's post about extreme neo-nazis in Russia is accurate, and they are emboldened by Putin's regime, just as right-wing extremists were cocky here when Trump was President. But I give zero credibility to the idea that the invasion had anything to do with that. Ukraine does not have a worse human rights record regarding right-wing extremism than Russia. Russia is not the Soviet Union, which was a failure, but it was a historically significant experiment in social change. Russia is just gangster capitalism run by autocrats, and nearly every one of them is Putin's buddy.

I think you're being overly apologetic by saying fairly ingenious regarding his real intentions, but I get the point.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312] * 2
    #27686004 - 03/07/22 08:16 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

At this point I can't see anything that Russia can gain that comes close to what they are going to lose. The extent of the sanctions have gone beyond anyone's expectations. Russians with money are leaving the country. The war is not popular at home. NATO is going to expand. Germany just doubled their defense budget. Putin is doing a better job of destroying Russia than destroying Ukraine. It's going to require a lot more repression at home for him to retain his power. Who would have dreamed he could miscalculated this that badly?


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27687259 - 03/08/22 09:34 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

There's been a lot of back and forth debate here. The Russians did this, but in the past the U.S. did this and this and this.
But I don't think there's any debate on this one. The U.S. never collapsed economically as a direct result of one of our invasions.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/russian-economy-could-default-in-just-a-few-weeks-morgan-stanley/ar-AAUMlNd?ocid=msedgntp

Another thought. While it wasn't his intention, Putin may have handed the midterms back to the Democrats.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27688495 - 03/09/22 09:56 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Poland just announced they have 35 MIGs they don’t want anymore and asks the US to dispose of them lol. Ukraine has agreed to help Poland and US




Poland wanted to give them to Ukraine, but the U.S. is trying (strongly) to put the brakes on it. They don't want a NATO country to be that "directly" involved. If Russia is provoked into attacking a NATO country, article 5 of the NATO agreement is that every NATO country is automatically at war with Russia. I think we know how that would end.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27691376 - 03/11/22 04:25 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
What  did we do exactly when this coup was staged ? Was it before or after the protests and the pro Russian President fled ? What happened in Ukraine prior to this ?

  It seems like the protests started in 2013 and in Jan and feb of 2014 they were shooting protestors .
  Did we cause that ?




By all intents and purposes, yes.

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
NATO and democracy has never been a threat to the poor Russian peasants , its threat to people like Putin and his buddies .





Tell that to the Russian people who saw their life expectancy cut in HALF as a result of Western aggression and the collapse of the USSR.

It’s like saying Al Qaeda isn’t a threat to Americans in the wake of 9/11, if bin Laden had killed 50 million Americans instead of a paltry 3,000.




Life expectancy cut in half?
The drop in life expectancy that did occur was fueled by tuberculosis among prison inmates, AIDS, car accidents, and excessive rates of drinking and smoking. I guess a case could be made that Western oppression causes Russians to start drinking vodka at breakfast. Sort of. The Russian economy has little resemblance to those of industrialized countries. Talking about whether Ukraine should or shouldn't be in NATO might be a reasonable argument. Keeping Ukraine out of the EU is a way to make sure they have a shit economy too.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: bukkake]
    #27691391 - 03/11/22 04:35 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

koods said:
Make up your mind. Is Crimea part of Russia or Ukraine?



That's a complicated historical question, unless a person believes history in that region began less than 10 years ago.

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Every war in the history of war could have been prevented by submitting to the demands of the aggressor.



Right, but I pointed out Russia's conditions for peace, which aren't super unreasonable to me and many others.  Russia doesn't even want Ukraine.  Do you think Ukraine ceasing military action is irrational, insulting, or stupid, like Kryptos does?




Why does Russia have any right to make demands of a sovereign democratic nation under the threat of destruction.

You’re gross. Just the worst kind of apologist for fascism.

You’ve been making excuses for Russian war crimes for years.



The same reason the US was able to make demands during the Cuban Missile Crisis. The same reason the US wouldn't find it acceptable to have Chinese military equipment in Mexico, Canada, or anywhere in Latin America. It'd be grand if so-called liberal democracies operated with benevolence and altruism, but they often don't. It's nice to say countries should be allowed or able to decide their own fate, but that isn't always the reality. Just because it should be so, doesn't make it so. Although it should be noted, the idea of Ukraine being a democracy is suspect.

Russia doesn't want NATO on its border, which is a reasonable demand. Russia was attacked twice by Germany in the two world wars in Ukraine. It's an area of vulnerability for the Russia state. Additionally, NATO was established as a defensive pact, but since the USSR's collapse has been operating in an aggressive, offensive capacity.

Russia would be insane to be ok with NATO positioned at its doorstep. Likewise, the US and NATO are also crazy for playing this game of chicken with Russia. Ukraine will never even become a member of NATO or the EU. The country is far too corrupt, even more corrupt than Russia, and the latter is pretty damn corrupt. Ze himself was included in the Pandora Papers leak for setting up offshore accounts. Ze is using his own people as cannon fodder in an unwinnable war with nothing for Ukraine to gain by having NATO ambitions.




Then we have to make a distinction between China putting military equipment in Latin America vs selling it to them, because they are certainly selling a shitload of it to them. And these countries obtaining them makes them less under America's thumb. They know that, as does China, and the U.S.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27691395 - 03/11/22 04:39 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

chopstick said:
The EU is so great that the UK said fuck that shit and left.




They do a good job with life expectancy.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27692013 - 03/12/22 04:07 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

chopstick said:
Well, those are some fucking bombshells if I've ever seen one.

Russia has confirmed they were experimenting with anthrax, pathogens of plague, leptospirosis, brucellosis, as well as coronaviruses and filoviruses.

From the looks of things it looks like some of these viruses were spread to Ukrainian soldiers, some of whom died.

Literal fucking guinea pigs.

The Pentagon should immediately suspend all bioweapons programs. Not only are they in violation of numerous agreements but they are a very serious threat to the world. If any of these pathogens are released, they would not respect any international border.

These parts are huge:

It studied possibilities of spreading particularly dangerous infections through migratory birds, including highly pathogenic H5N1 influenza (lethal to humans in 50 % of cases) and Newcastle disease. As part of another project, bats were considered as carriers of potential BW agents. Among the priorities identified are the study of bacterial and viral pathogens that can be transmitted from bats to humans: pathogens of plague, leptospirosis, brucellosis, as well as coronaviruses and filoviruses. Project documents clearly indicate that the United States actively financed bioprojects in Ukraine.

Having analyzed the destruction certificates, we can say that the Lvov lab alone destroyed 232 containers with pathogens of leptospirosis, 30 – of tularemia, 10 – of brucellosis, 5 – of plague. The total of more than 320 containers was eliminated. Pathogens’ titles and excessive amounts give reason to think that this work was done as part of military biological programs.

Jesus christ.

The US was developing biological weapons of mass destruction on Russia's doorstep.




You comment favorably on your own posts. It's the second coming of Webster.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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