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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 180
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Circles: The patterns of Life?
    #2766016 - 06/05/04 01:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I was reading an article about Venus passing in front of the Sun. I thought about the circular motion of orbit, and why it is circular/elliptical. I remember that the most distinct visuals I get when tripping is circular motions of textures, when either at the smallest level, or even landscape level. Everything takes on this curling spiral and/or spinning motion.

Particles in Quantum Physics always have curved, arched, or spiral motions when they observe them. The Earth itself rotates on an axis while it rotates around the Sun. Our Galaxy is rotating while we're spinning inside of it.

And while writing this, I'm wondering if they've applied this idea to the expansion of the universe. Maybe the universe is actually rotating, which would give the illusion its expanding if we're on the outside of the rotation? Not sure, I'm baked and this is taking a long ass time to write.

Anyways, do you think theres any correlation between these ideas? Is the circle the most perfect structure, since our very survival relies on it?


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InvisibleClean
the lense
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Registered: 05/11/03
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2766078 - 06/05/04 02:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)



Golden Mean Spiral

"This special type of spiral is created in nature according to what is called the Golden Mean, Golden Section, or Divine Proportion, which is simply the ratio (phi) of 1 : 1.6180339... It is derived from Fibonacci?s series, or a numerical list whereby each new number is the sum of the previous two numbers: 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144... ad infinitum. Regardless of how large the spiral becomes, the ratio of its dimensions remains constant. For instance, the proportion AB to AC is the same as BC to BD or CD to CE. "

"The growth of many objects in nature is determined by the Golden Mean, including the whorl pattern of sunflowers, pine cones, the distribution of leaves on a stem, fingerprints, and hurricanes."




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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 180
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: Clean]
    #2766112 - 06/05/04 02:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I knew it wasn't in my head. :laugh:

IMO, I don't see how people can't see the design in this beautiful universe.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2766121 - 06/05/04 02:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

IMO, I don't see how people can't see the design in this beautiful universe.

Well now...that's quite a subject!

I see nothing "mystical" in the way things are...in fact I find the way things are to be quite self-evident in that there is no other way things could be. I enjoy idle speculation on whether or not this Universe was created by some being or not...but I don't see any real evidence that points one way or the other. If all that is was created by an outside force, I don't think that force has had any real effect on the way things have turned out aside from setting the initial conditions.

This is the way things must be. There is no other way for the universe to exist. From the smallest constituents to the largest galaxies...everything obeys the same laws of nature and those laws determine what we see today!


--------------------
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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 180
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: trendal]
    #2766143 - 06/05/04 02:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Well, there's two ways to think about why the Universe is how it is.

Obviously there are physical and quantum constants that can't be changed. It's been said that if the expansion of the Universe were too fast then galaxies could not form and if the expansion were too slow then it would re-collapse before anything interesting happened. According to some estimates, if the velocity of expansion in the first second of the big bang was a mere trillionth slower, then the Universe would have collapsed within 50 million years, during which time the temperature would have remained above 10,000 degrees, clearly a state unfit to yield life as we know it.

IMO, if we work in a world that was based upon chance, then our chance of existance is near 0. If you try and program a computer to perform a certain task, but assign no constant variables, it would never be able to function. To me, these physical constants had to be 'set' by something, as it works too perfectly. If life arised from Chaos, then we shouldn't see much pattern or symmetry, but that's all we see. On a quantum level, matter isn't even a tangible substance, it's an idea.

We might protest here and argue that life has merely exploited the conditions which happen to prevail. In that case life will have just seized upon whatever 'chances' are on offer, where 'chances' is the appropriate word. It's like going to Vegas and never losing.

To each his own though. I used to be Atheist myself and as you, didn't see anything 'special' about the world. A few years later, a shitload of studying, and the occasional shroom trip and I never go a day without smiling at the beautiful design of life. The more I learned, the more I just tend to saw the design more and more.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2766159 - 06/05/04 02:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:

Oh! Please don't take my words the wrong way! I am not an athiest. I'm not even really agnostic, as I do think there is a being out there who created all this. Existence is still beautiful to me...I think even moreso because I know how slim of a chance it is that all this has come together like so.

I, however, attribute this beauty to the Universe itself. What a wonderous thing to have sprung into existence! The symmetry it obeys...the laws it projects...they are all aspects of a single entity, I think.


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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 180
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: trendal]
    #2766170 - 06/05/04 02:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I totally agree.  I might have misread that.  I suppose what I mean to say is, the idea that it reflects design is evidence enough for me it's part of a larger entity, and was meant to be this way.  I attribute it to the Universe as well, since we're all 'stardust in the wind' anyways. :wink:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2766326 - 06/05/04 03:55 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

IMO, if we work in a world that was based upon chance, then our chance of existance is near 0.

This is a fallacy that many here would do well to understand. Our chance of existence is 100% as is ANY event after-the-fact.

Playing the probabilty game as you do can make anything seem incredible. The possibility of you and I being alive at the same time on the same planet is (age of the universe / normal human lifespan * age of the universe / normal human lifespan * size of the universe / size of the earth) or 10^10 / 70 * 10^10 / 70 =
10^20 / 490 rounding to 10^20 / (5 * 10 ^ 2) = 2 * 10^18. Now factoring in the size of the universe over the size of the earth ( you fill in your own numbers) and
you may have something like 1 in 10^60 or more.

How likely is that?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineWorldbridger
Nemo Lotus

Registered: 05/15/04
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2766336 - 06/05/04 03:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 05/01/04
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Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: Swami]
    #2766358 - 06/05/04 04:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
IMO, if we work in a world that was based upon chance, then our chance of existance is near 0.

This is a fallacy that many here would do well to understand. Our chance of existence is 100% as is ANY event after-the-fact.

Playing the probabilty game as you do can make anything seem incredible. The possibility of you and I being alive at the same time on the same planet is (age of the universe / normal human lifespan * age of the universe / normal human lifespan * size of the universe / size of the earth) or 10^10 / 70 * 10^10 / 70 =
10^20 / 490 rounding to 10^20 / (5 * 10 ^ 2) = 2 * 10^18. Now factoring in the size of the universe over the size of the earth ( you fill in your own numbers) and
you may have something like 1 in 10^60 or more.

How likely is that?




Yeah, exactly.


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2766588 - 06/05/04 05:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, exactly.
hehe what? Did you not catch what he said?

We might protest here and argue that life has merely exploited the conditions which happen to prevail.

Your reasoning seems to be this: Snow is white, which makes it melt slower which allows the plant and animal life to enjoy a slow trickle of life giving water from the mountains all summer. If snow was black, these forest ecosystems that depend on this wouldn't exist so it must have been made that way. Am I right?


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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 180
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2766701 - 06/05/04 07:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:

hehe what? Did you not catch what he said?





Yes, I did. He's right, the chances are very low, which is why I feel it's extremely unlikely.

Quote:

Your reasoning seems to be this: Snow is white, which makes it melt slower which allows the plant and animal life to enjoy a slow trickle of life giving water from the mountains all summer. If snow was black, these forest ecosystems that depend on this wouldn't exist so it must have been made that way. Am I right?




More or less. Maybe on a larger scale, take the idea of Evaporation and Clouds, and how they distribute water around the Earth. Like I said, there's two angles to view this at. Either clouds just work that way, and as a result of it, and other nature-based rules, human life has taken advantage and exploited these circumstances to exist.

The other way to see it is the clouds work that way because something made them work that way, to allow a human conciousness to develop.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2766741 - 06/05/04 07:28 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think this is the second time this week I'll use this quote :smirk:

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --Albert Einstein


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Invisiblefict
phi
Registered: 03/13/04
Posts: 64
Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2767044 - 06/05/04 10:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EgoTripping said:
Quote:

Mixomatosis said:

hehe what? Did you not catch what he said?





Yes, I did. He's right, the chances are very low, which is why I feel it's extremely unlikely.

Quote:

Your reasoning seems to be this: Snow is white, which makes it melt slower which allows the plant and animal life to enjoy a slow trickle of life giving water from the mountains all summer. If snow was black, these forest ecosystems that depend on this wouldn't exist so it must have been made that way. Am I right?




More or less. Maybe on a larger scale, take the idea of Evaporation and Clouds, and how they distribute water around the Earth. Like I said, there's two angles to view this at. Either clouds just work that way, and as a result of it, and other nature-based rules, human life has taken advantage and exploited these circumstances to exist.

The other way to see it is the clouds work that way because something made them work that way, to allow a human conciousness to develop.




Sorry about the excessive quoting.
Yes, of all possible worlds, it is very unlikely that we should have wound up in this particular world. Many people believe that because the odds of our existence is so slim, there must exist a omnipotent being who created our existence.

This is not the case.

The chance of this world existing is slim. This does not imply, however, that the chance of existing in any possible world is so slim. Something had to happen, and it just so happens that *this* is what happened.

And yes, the world is a beautiful, mystical place. =)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: fict]
    #2767098 - 06/05/04 10:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The chance of this world existing is slim.

Nope. The chance of this world existing is 100% or 1/1 or a total certainty.

Keep grappling with this simple concept until you get it, then maybe we can move on to more advanced subject material.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/05/04 11:28 PM)


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: Swami]
    #2767172 - 06/05/04 10:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The chance of this world existing is slim.

Nope. The chance of this world existing is 100% or 1/1 or a total certainty.

Kepp grappling with this simple concept until you get it then maybe we can move on to more advanced subject material.




You're using a straw man argument so although they dont understand what you're saying you're not quite right. The frivolous odds you speak of about two people existing is arbitrary. Think of a random number simulator that goes from 0-100. Now some number must be picked such as those two people must be formed. The odds that those two people would be formed is that high muber you gave when you observe the case prior to it happening. Obviously some combination had to happen and that combination of people just happen to be the case.

You're arguement really isn't even related. Your arguement did not involve a certain situation which had to occur for everything to work out. Those two people were just the roll of the dice. One side had to show up.

Sorry if it gets incoherent im fairly baked. Im certain im right but....


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Edited by d33p (06/06/04 01:02 AM)


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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: Swami]
    #2767188 - 06/05/04 10:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The only reason you seem to feel its 100% is because we have no other Universes to compare it to, to test different cosmological variables and see the results. The universe works a certain way because of certain rules that can't be changed, and since they can't be changed, no other result can come of the equation, so here we are, existing, at a 100% chance, I agree.

But what I am trying to convey is those same rules had to be set exactly the way they are, otherwise, our chances to evolve are near zero to impossible. If you are playing a video game, and notice that the AI is extremely smart, do you assume characters in the game are simply acting on their own accord, learning as it goes? Or do you assume that the creators gave the AI a certain sets of "if this, then do this" rules to abide by, and the AI is simply reacting according to those rules which depend on how you play the game?

But trying to comprehend the sheer dynamics of something starting as The Big Bang and ending up at this moment, without any guide or "rule setter", to me is absurd. My argument for design isn't unlike what I used to combat as an Atheist, the evidence is apparent in the way life organizes without fail.


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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 05/01/04
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Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: fict]
    #2767253 - 06/05/04 11:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fict said:
The chance of this world existing is slim. This does not imply, however, that the chance of existing in any possible world is so slim. Something had to happen, and it just so happens that *this* is what happened.

And yes, the world is a beautiful, mystical place. =)




If you assume there are other worlds to exist in, you have to assume it's an infinite amount of worlds and possibilities. That would make this particular existance either extremely likely (100%) or extremely unlikely (0%). Insinuating there could be multiple to infinite amounts of outcomes, that would bring in the neccessity of an omnipotent being alone, since it would have to deal with something "holding" us to this existance.

Hope that made sense.


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Invisiblefict
phi
Registered: 03/13/04
Posts: 64
Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2768077 - 06/06/04 03:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Are you unable to point out a specific flaw in my logic or is this thread now about reading recommendations?




Oh ... no no. I just don't think I'm quite capable of concisely summing up all that has been written and said about such things....

And to be honest with you, the existence of concrete possible worlds is, to say the least, a rather controversial metaphysical claim. But hey, what metaphysical claim isn't debatable? Besides, one needn't necessarily accept that other worlds do literally exist in order to accept the common notions of possibility and necessity....

That's why I dig this stuff. Anyway, getting to the point...

In order to avoid sounding completely insane, let's back up a bit.

Someone way up there ^^^ posted a rather pretty photograph of a distant galaxy and noted that many things in nature are structured according to the golden ratio. This inspired EgoTripping to make known his belief, that the world has designed by a supreme being of some sort. Yadda yadda. Then you stated that the chance of our having come into existence was 100%, and that any event had a 100% chance of happening after-the-fact.

And, come to think about it, I don't think I'm arguing against you. After you stated that any event had a 100% chance of happening after-the-fact, a few people seem to have missed the point. You noted that by drawing out the probability of any particular event, one can make any event seem utterly remarkable. ...

...

Well, I feel like typing something. Must be my ego... Let's see where this goes.

Let's just have an example event, it could represent my birth, the improbable event by which you and I came to exist at the same time and on the same planet. You stated that, prior to this event, the probability of E was about 1/10^60.

... You then stated that the chance of existing in any state of affairs is 100% after-the-fact.

It strikes me that all events that *will* happen are events that have not yet happened. You said that prior to any given event, the probability of that event is small, and after the event takes place, the event becomes a necessary part of existence.

time1
p(x) = 1/10^60
time2
p(x) = 1

... So how is it that p(x), being the same event, changes through time? How can an event be both improbable and necessary? Contradiction?

Maybe just an example of the limited capability of the human mind in making predictions about future events? Or, given all possible variables and physical laws, could all future events be calculated and shown necessary? Then we'd be assuming that nature is uniform through time and we'd have to get into the problem of causal inference... etc etc.

... Not to mention the implications in regards the (non)existence of free-will, implications which I don't personally find bothersome, but maybe you do.

I guess my point, basically, is that it doesn't seem to me that the probability of an event changes based on your temporal position relative to that event.

it's 3:47 AM. forgiveness, please.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: fict]
    #2768298 - 06/06/04 06:24 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I guess my point, basically, is that it doesn't seem to me that the probability of an event changes based on your temporal position relative to that event.

AHA! Now you bring up a very meaty subject worthy of discussion. Now there are two possible definitions of a random or probabilistic event.

In Definition 1, random means "unknowable from the human perspective"; as in too many subtle variables are involved and their relationship is unknown.

For example: we could bet on which leaf will next fall from an oak tree. That could depend on the next gust of wind torquing the stem (and back track a near-infinite number of meteorological variables as well), and which branches were most damaged 10 years ago by some blight, and which leaves get the most sun and dry out the quickest, etc. To us it is random. If we could input ALL of the variables into a some future super-computer perhaps we could make the correct prediction 100% of the time.

Definition 2: of which we are not certain that it exists (despite the perspective of modern-day physics) is that some events are totally random; i.e. acausal at the quantum level or the time-stream may be diverted through human volition; i.e. conscious choice. This definition may never be proven or disproven. No one has yet come up with a valid experiment in which to test it.

If Definition 1 holds in ALL cases then your implication:

time1
p(x) = 1/10^60
time2
p(x) = 1

... So how is it that p(x), being the same event, changes through time? How can an event be both improbable and necessary?


is quite valid. That does not mean that probablity and chance should be deleted from the dictionary as they are, and shall remain, useful linguistic tools. And Vegas will still be in business.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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