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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
For the "Really delusional"
    #2765479 - 06/05/04 05:50 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

PM 'delusional' over weapons Jun 5 2004

Tony Blair's insistence that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction could still be found has been branded "delusional" by the man who headed the hunt.

The Prime Minister suggested recently that the Iraq Survey Group could produce evidence when it reports in several months time.

But David Kay, who led the ISG after the invasion, said the weapons simply did not exist so Mr Blair and other leaders should say sorry for being wrong.

"Anyone out there holding - as I gather Prime Minister Blair has recently said - the prospect that ISG is going to unmask actual weapons of mass destruction are really delusional," he said. "There is nothing there. There is a programme there. There was an intention of Saddam Hussein at some point to reconstitute it.

"There were clearly illegal activities, clear violations of UN Security Council resolutions. We have accumulated that evidence and really have accumulated that evidence to a considerable degree four months ago.

"There are not actual stockpiles of newly produced weapons of mass destruction."

Dr Kay's remarks came amid reports that Lord Butler's inquiry into intelligence failing has ranged much wider than expected.

The coalition's former chief weapons inspector conceded that Mr Blair and other leaders had "generally" started to talk about weapons programmes rather than actual stockpiles.

However, he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "It is amazing that occasionally they slip back into talking about it. The problem is the unwillingness to take the responsibility of saying a few simple words - we were wrong.

"We simply got it wrong. There were actually no weapons of mass destruction. Iraq was a dangerous country, Saddam was an evil man and we are better off without him and all of that. But we were wrong in our estimation."

http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.uk/010...-name_page.html


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
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Some other quotes and thoughts by and on David Kay [Re: Xlea321]
    #2766674 - 06/05/04 06:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Nobody likes to read long boring posts. I like to write long boring posts. I don't know why. Few people here seem to agree with me anyway. I think I write this stuff more for my own benefit. What a sad act of mental masturbation.

I think that Dr. David Kay is a straight shooter. Right or wrong he likes to speak his mind and let the cards fall where they may. He seems to me to have broad credibility along both sides of the political spectrum. This despite the fact that he was a proponent of the war and the fact that he himself predicted that large stockpiles of weapons would be found.

I tend to disagree with him on the issue that the hunt is over. I think that we have more to find and I believe that we chould find some stockpiles of weapons before the dust finally settles.

The problem that I have is when people use Kay to further their own agendas without reflecting on his whole body of work. People from the right and people from the left go great lengths to make their points, but the truth probably falls somewhere in the middle.

Here are some interesting tidbits from articles with quotes from David Kay :

Here Kay addresses Congress:
Quote:

Let me begin by saying, we were almost all wrong, and I certainly include myself here.

Sen. [Edward] Kennedy knows very directly. Senator Kennedy and I talked on several occasions prior to the war that my view was that the best evidence that I had seen was that Iraq indeed had weapons of mass destruction.

I would also point out that many governments that chose not to support this war -- certainly, the French president, [Jacques] Chirac, as I recall in April of last year, referred to Iraq's possession of WMD.

The Germans certainly -- the intelligence service believed that there were WMD.

It turns out that we were all wrong, probably in my judgment, and that is most disturbing.





Quote:

Asked whether President Bush owed the nation an explanation for the discrepancies between his warnings and Kay's findings, Kay said: "I actually think the intelligence community owes the president, rather than the president owing the American people."

The CIA would not comment on Kay's remarks, though one official, speaking on condition of anonymity, noted that Kay himself was vocal in predicting he would find weapons.

Kay said his predictions were not "coming back to haunt me in the sense that I am embarrassed. They are coming back to haunt me in the sense of `Why could we all be so wrong?"




It takes a big man to admit that he was wrong. Unfortunately, it also takes a man who was wrong to begin with. Dr. Kay predicted stockpiles of weapons, just like everyone else. Everyone else includes not only the American CIA, but British, French, and German intelligence. In fact, the only nation that claimed Iraq had no WMD stockpiles was Iraq.

Quote:

Kay told The New York Times in a later interview for Monday's editions that U.S. intelligence agencies did not realize Iraqi scientists presented Saddam with fanciful plans for weapons programs and then used the money he authorized for other purposes.

"The whole thing shifted from directed programs to a corrupted process," Kay told the Times. "The regime was no longer in control; it was like a death spiral. Saddam was self-directing projects that were not vetted by anyone else. The scientists were able to fake programs."





So while we didn't know the extent of Sadaam's weapons capabilities and inventories, apparently Sadaam did not either. I find that somewhat comforting. It doesn't lessen Sadaam's intent, only his effectiveness.

Quote:

Kay said Iraq did try to restart its nuclear weapons program in 2000 and 2001, but that evidence suggests it would have taken years to rebuild after being largely abandoned in the 1990s.




Little things like restarting a program to make nuclear weapons somehow have little credence in the WMD debate. The only things that seems to matter to people is that we didn't find a huge pile of chemical shells lying around Baghdad. The fact that Sadaam Hussien was trying to get nuclear weapons doesn't seem to matter to people. I find that odd. This is a major point to me, and should be to other people as well.

Quote:

David Kay, the former head of the coalition's hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, yesterday claimed that part of Saddam Hussein's secret weapons programme was hidden in Syria.

In an exclusive interview with The Telegraph, Dr Kay, who last week resigned as head of the Iraq Survey Group, said that he had uncovered evidence that unspecified materials had been moved to Syria shortly before last year's war to overthrow Saddam.

"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved."




And more on Syria:

Quote:

King Abdullah said that trucks containing 17.5 tons of explosives had come from Syria, though he took pains not to implicate Syrian President Bashir Assad in the al-Qaida plot, saying, "I'm completely confident that Bashir did not know about it."

In his testimony before Congress last year, weapons inspector Kay said U.S. satellite surveillance showed substantial vehicular traffic going from Iraq to Syria just prior to the U.S. attack on March 19, 2003.

While Kay said investigators couldn't be sure the cargo contained weapons of mass destruction, one of his top advisers described the evidence as "unquestionable."

"People below the Saddam-Hussein-and-his-sons level saw what was coming and decided the best thing to do was to destroy and disperse," said James Clapper in comments reported by the New York Times on Oct. 29. Clapper heads the National Imagery and Mapping Agency.

Israeli intelligence has long believed that after the U.S. delayed invasion plans to allow U.N. weapons inspectors time to search for Iraq's WMDs, Saddam moved the banned weapons to Syria, the only other country ruled by the Ba'ath Party.




We had overhead images of trucks pouring into Syria right before the War. Kay had depositions from interrogations of Iraqi officials that stated that banned material was on those trucks. Then we have WMD coming out of Syria in an attempt to attack our allies in Jordan. Not to hard to connect those dots. I think Kay's info on this is credible and once again I think that these findings are significant.

Quote:

To Congress:"In my judgment, based on the work that has been done to this point of the Iraq Survey Group, and in fact, that I reported to you in October, Iraq was in clear violation of the terms of [U.N.] Resolution 1441.

Resolution 1441 required that Iraq report all of its activities -- one last chance to come clean about what it had.

We have discovered hundreds of cases, based on both documents, physical evidence and the testimony of Iraqis, of activities that were prohibited under the initial U.N. Resolution 687 and that should have been reported under 1441, with Iraqi testimony that not only did they not tell the U.N. about this, they were instructed not to do it and they hid material.




Kay keeps asserting that our intelligence was wrong because everyone thought that Sadaam had stockpiles of weapons and we can't find them. We haven't found them yet, but what we have found is significant. We wouldn't have to find another thing to make an airtight case against Sadaam.

Sadaam didn't get out of the WMD business. He had clandestine operations set up for his Chemical and Biologal weapons. He had attempted to restart his nuclear weapons program as late as 2001. He probably shut that down due to increased pressure by the administration after 9-11. He was doing new research on his biological weapons. He continued to work on missle systems for delivery of those systems in spite of UN mandates. In the days right before and early on in the war, Iraq sent convoys of banned substances into Syria to escape detection. They also destroyed all the documents that they could pertaining to the WMD programs. Early on in Kay's investigation, two Iraqi scientists were shot when they started cooperating with him, one fatally. Terror is a huge deterent to our success in uncovering the truth.

Iraq is a large nation and they spent over a decade learning how to conceal things. They have found documents at a chicken farm. They have found biological weapons agents in the refridgerator of a citizens personal residence. They have found Uranium processing and enrichment equipment burried in somebody else's back yard under a Rose bush. For the love of God, we will never know the full truth. It would be impossible to physically dig up every square inch of soil, let alone recover destoryed documents. But we do know enough at this point to justify the claims that Sadaam was a threat.

And the destroyed documents would have been interesting. Sadaam's son in law defected to Jordan before operation Desert Fox in the Clinton years. He claimed that France and Russia had sold enriched Uranium to Sadaam. I would have loved to pin that one down as fact with documentation. Coupled with the Oil for Food scandals that indicate bribes going to our French and Russian "friends", that would be the straw that broke the camel's back. Funny how none of our 'blame America first' conspiracy theorists on here like to question the interests of the Countries who objected to our deposing Sadaam. While we make grave sacrifices to enhance world security and free the Iraqi people, they worked hard to keep this menace in power. Ever ask yourself why? Follow the money.

This war is justified. Sadaam blatently broke the UN mandates and resolutions time and time again. That cannot be denied with a straight face. I keep banging my head against the wall with you guys. Am I missing something? Am I not reasonable? Do my arguments make no sense to you? I don't understand it.

If you read this whole post, I will buy you a beer. You could have read War and Peace in about the same time.



Here are the source links for my quotes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3160186.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/28/kay.transcript/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,109457,00.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht.../ixnewstop.html
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/17/141224.shtml
http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/2003/david_kay_10022003.html


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Some other quotes and thoughts by and on David Kay [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2766679 - 06/05/04 06:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^meh, not even worth a guinness


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: Some other quotes and thoughts by and on David Kay [Re: Tao]
    #2766705 - 06/05/04 07:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I only spring for cheap beer anyway. And I buy domestic to support America!


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
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Re: Some other quotes and thoughts by and on David Kay [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2766771 - 06/05/04 07:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I buy locals or imports :cheers:, never domestics :projectile:

edit: Sam Adams winter ale and oktoberfest were good.  That's about the only exception I can think of though.


Edited by TaoTeChing (06/05/04 07:44 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Some other quotes and thoughts by and on David Kay [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2766948 - 06/05/04 09:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Well put together.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Some other quotes and thoughts by and on David Kay [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2768027 - 06/06/04 03:27 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The problem that I have is when people use Kay to further their own agendas without reflecting on his whole body of work.

It surely makes sense to regard his recent statements about WMD as more accurate than his statements last year.

Everyone else includes not only the American CIA, but British, French, and German intelligence. In fact, the only nation that claimed Iraq had no WMD stockpiles was Iraq.

Not sure about that. Certainly British intelligence believed no such thing - which is why the government had to plagarise 12 year old students essays and rewrite intelligence reports to try and make a case. All they had was very vague guesswork and statements from certain exiles with a vested interest like Chalabi. There was also enormous evidence from top ranking scientists who had escaped from Iraq and stated categorically there was no WMD program.

So while we didn't know the extent of Sadaam's weapons capabilities and inventories, apparently Sadaam did not either.

Nah, I read a report where the first thing they asked Saddam when he was captured was where the WMD were and him replying instantly "There are none".

The fact that Sadaam Hussien was trying to get nuclear weapons doesn't seem to matter to people.

I'd like to know a little more about this "evidence" before I believe it.

We had overhead images of trucks pouring into Syria right before the War.

I heard a story that was members of Saddams family. Who knows whether it actually happened or not. Certainly it wouldn't be hard to track down someone who knew something about it. Just one person involved in that operation could go to the americans and say "Give me 25 million dollars and I'll tell you about it". No-one has. I find that a little odd.

Iraq is a large nation and they spent over a decade learning how to conceal things

Like Kay says, I think we're in the realms of "really delusional". To make long range ballistic missiles and chemical and biological warheads you need scientists, you need workers, you need heavy plant. Not a single person who was involved in any of this has come forward. Even with the fact that they could write themselves the cheque. Somethings not adding up is it. It's more likely that Kay and Blix is right - the WMD havn't been around since at least 1994 and more likely 1991.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleHanky
wiffle bat.
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Registered: 08/30/03
Posts: 56,993
Loc: Great Southern Land.
Re: Some other quotes and thoughts by and on David Kay [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2768202 - 06/06/04 04:40 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"They have found Uranium processing and enrichment equipment burried in somebody else's back yard under a Rose bush."

I'm sure you can fit alot of that kind of equipment under a rose bush.

"While we make grave sacrifices to enhance world security"

Try doing something about the most dangerous pack of terrorists on the planet,the USA.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Some other quotes and thoughts by and on David Kay [Re: Hanky]
    #2768310 - 06/06/04 07:11 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sure you can fit alot of that kind of equipment under a rose bush.

:thumbup:

Can't see his roses coming up too well this year :laugh:

Odd tho, you'd think if someone could direct the americans to Uranium processing equipment under their rosebush they'd have requested a 25 million dollar reward for doing so.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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