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Black Cat
Major Pussy

Registered: 01/27/22 
Posts: 270
Loc: African Scream Contest
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Unvaxxed lowly dogs. We’re gonna get ya!
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MagicMush123
moon person



Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,101
Loc: Chinada
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Re: The Honkening (Ottawa) [Re: koods]
#27646076 - 02/04/22 07:41 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said: The sun causes cancer. You gonna force people to wear sunscreen as well?
Cancer isn’t contagious
The vaccine doesn't fix that
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christopera
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/17
Posts: 14,201
Last seen: 42 minutes, 58 seconds
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Of course, it isn't a cancer vaccine. It however does do a pretty good job with covid transmissibility.
You'd think truckers out there searching for trucker cock, tossing piss jugs out their windows, would be lonely enough that they'd care about their fat trucker boyfriends at the nearest hot hamburger sandwich shop. That doesn't seem to be the case.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,340
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said: The sun causes cancer. You gonna force people to wear sunscreen as well?
Does the sun cause other people to get cancer? And for the thousandth time, nobody is forcing anybody to do anything.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,045
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 51 minutes, 36 seconds
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said: The sun causes cancer. You gonna force people to wear sunscreen as well?
Cancer isn’t contagious
The vaccine doesn't fix that
It does pretty good job.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,423
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 6 hours, 24 minutes
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So, we need to remember the reasonable limits provision of the Canadian Charter:
Quote:
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
It's the idea that rights are not absolute - that a balance between the rights of the individual and the interests of society must be found - and the fact it's Section 1 of the Charter should highlight it's importance. One of the most significant distinctions between Canadian and American societies is that Canada has always tended more towards the interests of society compared to the USA's focus on the individual - it's why we have laws against hate speech, while our southern neighbours take a more absolute approach - it's why firearms are essentially banned in our public spaces, whereas open-carry is foundational to many Americans - it's why the 1896 gold rush had Dudley Do Right in the Klondike, and Soapy Smith over in Skagway - all the way down to Canada's roots in loyalism, and the USA's roots in revolution. Even if you fundamentally disagree with the reasonable limits provision, we can't just pretend it doesn't exist - acting like this is some shocking tyrannical development just doesn't hold weight legally or socially in Canada.
Now, I absolutely agree that public health measures in response to contagious disease won't always offer an easy balance between the individual and society - but it's possible to believe our gov't has done a piss-poor job responding to covid, while also believing that a balance must still be found. The idea that public health interests can reasonably limit individual rights is likely something you already accept to some degree - for example, the law that an HIV-positive individual must disclose their status to any sexual partner they risk infecting or face criminal charges is probably a law you accept; which also limits our right to privacy. Instead of responding to an overreaching gov't with a knee-jerk reaction in the complete opposite direction, we're better off trying to find a balance that we think is more reasonable.
Personally, I think that the best way to answer this question is to listen to the advice of trusted experts - in this case, people who study infectious diseases providing data-driven policy. Even as an anarchist, I recognize that I don't benefit from completely rejecting authority:
Quote:
I bow before the authority of special men because it is imposed on me by my own reason. I am conscious of my own inability to grasp, in all its detail, and positive development, any very large portion of human knowledge. The greatest intelligence would not be equal to a comprehension of the whole. Thence results, for science as well as for industry, the necessity of the division and association of labour. I receive and I give - such is human life. Each directs and is directed in his turn. Therefore there is no fixed and constant authority, but a continual exchange of mutual, temporary, and, above all, voluntary authority and subordination.
This same reason forbids me, then, to recognise a fixed, constant and universal authority, because there is no universal man, no man capable of grasping in all that wealth of detail, without which the application of science to life is impossible, all the sciences, all the branches of social life. And if such universality could ever be realised in a single man, and if he wished to take advantage thereof to impose his authority upon us, it would be necessary to drive this man out of society, because his authority would inevitably reduce all the others to slavery and imbecility.
Of course, that's not exactly what happened - yes, there was a general consensus among experts that covid was a dangerous virus - but too often our gov't listened to the advice that allowed an expansion of state power, and ignored the advice that required serious systemic improvements. Once again, that doesn't mean we should have the knee-jerk reaction of going in the complete opposite direction and denying the reality of covid or the opinions of experts - we're better off finding that voluntary authority to guide us. The challenge here is that people all-to-often mistake a charlatan for a genius.
How can we use non-authoritarian methods to protect a society from the threat of infectious disease and charlatans? A more robust healthcare system that is less vulnerable to being overwhelmed - a better funded education system that is more effective at teaching critical thinking - and a wider social safety-net so that sick people don't feel compelled to go to work. If you want to end the need to 'force' people to get vaccinated, fighting for a Canada that addresses the above is a much more realistic approach and it has the side-effect of making a better society in general, for everyone. Otherwise, a society that embraces an absolute interpretation of rights will always inadvertently abandon the most vulnerable.
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/06/22 02:57 AM)
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oursoulsinmotion
🐵🙈🙉🙊


Registered: 10/04/21
Posts: 3,380
Last seen: 1 day, 4 hours
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Hurry before The Queen outlaws horns
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yeah


Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 3,729
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Koods still out here propagating the myth that vaccination prevents transmission or even infection. It's pointless trying to talk to him because he doesn't want to be right he just wants his side in charge. He'll say or do whatever the fuck he can to "win" and there is no compromise with someone as deranged and evil as him. The only solution would be to subjugate the fuck out of him if good wins over evil in this world.
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Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
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Re: The Honkening (Ottawa) [Re: yeah]
#27647296 - 02/05/22 05:26 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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"The right thing to do is to use the power of the state to remove someone's personhood, because that is what I interpret their actions to be when they ask me to be vaccinated when I get a haircut"
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yeah


Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 3,729
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
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Re: The Honkening (Ottawa) [Re: Kryptos] 3
#27648009 - 02/06/22 08:24 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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christopera
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/17
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Re: The Honkening (Ottawa) [Re: yeah]
#27648014 - 02/06/22 08:30 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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/r/pol is leaking
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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anatomality
Nothern Counterpart



Registered: 05/31/20
Posts: 1,354
Loc: North East
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
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Re: The Honkening (Ottawa) [Re: christopera] 4
#27648158 - 02/06/22 10:43 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I'm pretty happy about the protest.
I may swing by later and check it out. I am triple vaxxed and have had COVID for the record. And work in healthcare.
It's time to stop wearing masks, having vaccine passports and firing people for exerting their right to informed consent. Anyone who leaves their house and interacts with people regularly irl (a minority at this point) knows what the real danger is. It's the typical "morally righteous" majority, exerting authority on others (having no authority over their own lives).
Everything doesn't stop because a weak majority cannot handle any kind of risk in their meek existence. Move on, or get left behind. That's how life has always worked, forever. Eat well, get outside, spend time with friends and family. Move the fuck on everyone.
-peace.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,423
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 6 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: The Honkening (Ottawa) [Re: anatomality] 1
#27648255 - 02/06/22 12:26 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Similarly, everything doesn't stop because a minority cannot handle any kind of limitation in their existence - that, as my earlier post details, is how life has always worked in Canadian society.
Majority or minority, any morally righteous attempt to exert authority on others is misguided and dangerous. With this in mind, may I ask how you formed your opinion here; was it via listening to the data-driven policy developed by the relevant experts or is it based on your own moral perceptions?
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anatomality
Nothern Counterpart



Registered: 05/31/20
Posts: 1,354
Loc: North East
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Majority or minority, any morally righteous attempt to exert authority on others is misguided and dangerous.
Beautiful!
My opinion is based on many things.
Various experts and studies. My personal experience working for pharmaceutical companies (6 years). My bachelor's degree in health science field. Real world experience seeing/interacting with the public in a healthcare setting. My personal experience with COVID.
Basically, everyone is right in various degrees, about various things.
Yes COVID is dangerous for certain segments of the population. I think the question now is :
What do we want our society to be like in 20 years, and is preventing the deaths of the vulnerable our main concern forever?
There is such a thing as risk assessment, and by all means the vulnerable should be protected. It's just the reality is, for the majority of people this is over.
It would be, at this point, healthy to allow life to go on for the healthy.
(In my opinion)
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
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Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 38 minutes
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What is the value of the life of a vulnerable individual?
You can use any relevant currency: Dollars, convenience points (let's say wearing a mask for a day costs one convenience point), etc.
How much is grandma continuing to breathe worth?
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anatomality
Nothern Counterpart



Registered: 05/31/20
Posts: 1,354
Loc: North East
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
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Re: The Honkening (Ottawa) [Re: Kryptos] 1
#27648367 - 02/06/22 02:06 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: What is the value of the life of a vulnerable individual?
You can use any relevant currency: Dollars, convenience points (let's say wearing a mask for a day costs one convenience point), etc.
How much is grandma continuing to breathe worth?
It's hard to put a number. I'd say this though.
2 years of a 22 years olds life are more valuable than 2 years of the same person at 80. There are diminishing returns as time goes on.
Hobbling a generation of young people for a couple extra months for Gramma isn't ideal.
Life shouldn't be seen in terms of only time, but also quality life years.
We shouldn't create a more terrible, longer societal problem by focusing emotionally on the immediate short term realities.
Anyone feel me?
On another note my 96 year old Gramma recently fell and broke her pelvis. It fucking sucks.
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
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Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 38 minutes
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Well, yeah, it is hard to come up with a specific number right away, but we do agree that the life of a 22 year old is worth more than the life of an 80 year old, right? So, there is a specific number somewhere. We just need to find it.
How many 80 year olds is a 22 year old worth?
Or, like, what about a 40 year old? Is a 22 year old worth more than a 40 year old?
What if the 40 year old has kids? But then again, the 22 year old might have kids in the future, so...
What if they don't have kids? Is their life worth more, or less?
But what if the 22 year old is black, and the 80 year old is white?
What is the 22 year old is a criminal?
There's a line somewhere, let's find it.
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SonicTitan


Registered: 05/17/16
Posts: 24,062
Last seen: 1 hour, 18 minutes
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Re: The Honkening (Ottawa) [Re: Kryptos] 1
#27648749 - 02/06/22 07:17 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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These people take medications/antibiotics/painkillers/recreational drugs/smoke/fast food that has a list of horrendous side effects and permanent damage/death caused by them and also take other vaccines (which have had way worse side effects) so wi dont understand why they have a problem.
Everyone feels like it's the worst thing because it's happeningto us, but dont think about all the other times humanity went through plague and pandemics, I'm sure they thought it was the worst thing at the time too, it's a human condition to think that way when nature just does its thing.
-------------------- "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
 
Edited by SonicTitan (02/06/22 07:43 PM)
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anatomality
Nothern Counterpart



Registered: 05/31/20
Posts: 1,354
Loc: North East
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
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Re: The Honkening (Ottawa) [Re: Kryptos] 1
#27648943 - 02/06/22 10:16 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Not exactly what I meant.
I meant that two years of lockdown mean something different for an 80 year old vs a 22 year old.
Holding both these hypothetical people back for two years has a very different impact on society at large, and by extension on the vulnerable afterwards. Hobbling the youth is not good for the future.
22 year old = lost education, lost opportunity, lost "living experience" and worst future for society.
80 year old : loss of human contact, worsening the experience of their last year's with accentuated isolation and fear.
I didn't exactly want to put a price on life, rather years have a different "value" according to how old and state of health you are.
I'm not sure I'm explaining myself properly... I just mean that there may be unintended consequences later on. Peace
-------------------- “The strength of a person's spirit would then be measured by how much 'truth' he could tolerate, or more precisely, to what extent he needs to have it diluted, disguised, sweetened, muted, falsified.”
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,045
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 51 minutes, 36 seconds
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So apparently these truckers park in residential neighborhoods and make noise all night long. Resident of condo building says arguments between residents and the truckers escalated last night. Truckers brought flammable materials into the building and set the lobby on fire. Wtf is wrong with these people?
https://twitter.com/timunoz/status/1490473045965815812?s=21
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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