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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Mushrooms Ineffective due to SSRI/SNRIs? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #27596590 - 12/27/21 05:39 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:


Doctors who use these drugs say that full anti-depressant effect may not even start for some at all after 14 days, and full effect would take much longer; this suggests long-term changes in serotonin. This study would not explore that possibility; since it only assigned use of the SSRI for 14 days, it actually stopped the study right at the point when doctors say serotonin will start getting effected.






This was my take as well.  It's likely the pretreatment time wasn't long enough.  It's also notable there was a statistically significant decrease in VAS measures of drug effects.  I think an alternative interpretation is that these results are in keeping with our previous though that SSRIs decrease the effects of serotonergic hallucinogens.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Other


Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Mushrooms Ineffective due to SSRI/SNRIs? [Re: badchad]
    #27596604 - 12/27/21 05:59 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
This was my take as well.  It's likely the pretreatment time wasn't long enough.  It's also notable there was a statistically significant decrease in VAS measures of drug effects.  I think an alternative interpretation is that these results are in keeping with our previous though that SSRIs decrease the effects of serotonergic hallucinogens.



If you read a bit closer in terms of what the VASs measured, they were mostly "bad drug effects" such as anxiety that were reduced. This is consistent with the effects of SSRI's when taken alone. This effect was also quite small and if you look at figure 2, there were recurrent time periods where the effect surpassed that of the placebo group. The reductions in "any drug effect" can be postulated to be due to the reductions in "bad drug effects" considering the lack of reduced positive effects (e.g., "good drug effects", "Oceanic Boundlessness", "Visionary Restructuralization" "stimulation", "drug high" etc. were not affected)

I'm not sure how this evidence is consistent with "our previous though that SSRIs decrease the effects of serotonergic hallucinogens" as you say considering that the positive effects of psychedelics were not impacted.

I'll bet comparing the effect of meditation would yield a larger reduction on the "bad drug effects" VAS measure than escitalopram, but that's just a guess. All I'm saying is that this itself is not evidence of escitalopram reducing the primary therapeutic/hallucinatory effects of LSD, if we're to be specific about which dimensions of the VASs were reduced.


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (12/27/21 06:17 PM)


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Mushrooms Ineffective due to SSRI/SNRIs? [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27596694 - 12/27/21 07:05 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
Quote:

badchad said:
This was my take as well.  It's likely the pretreatment time wasn't long enough.  It's also notable there was a statistically significant decrease in VAS measures of drug effects.  I think an alternative interpretation is that these results are in keeping with our previous though that SSRIs decrease the effects of serotonergic hallucinogens.



If you read a bit closer in terms of what the VASs measured, they were mostly "bad drug effects" such as anxiety that were reduced. This is consistent with the effects of SSRI's when taken alone. This effect was also quite small and if you look at figure 2, there were recurrent time periods where the effect surpassed that of the placebo group. The reductions in "any drug effect" can be postulated to be due to the reductions in "bad drug effects" considering the lack of reduced positive effects (e.g., "good drug effects", "Oceanic Boundlessness", "Visionary Restructuralization" "stimulation", "drug high" etc. were not affected)

I'm not sure how this evidence is consistent with "our previous though that SSRIs decrease the effects of serotonergic hallucinogens" as you say considering that the positive effects of psychedelics were not impacted.

I'll bet comparing the effect of meditation would yield a larger reduction on the "bad drug effects" VAS measure than escitalopram, but that's just a guess. All I'm saying is that this itself is not evidence of escitalopram reducing the primary therapeutic/hallucinatory effects of LSD, if we're to be specific about which dimensions of the VASs were reduced.




I was referring to Emax on the measure of "Any drug effect," which is on of the most face valid, global measures of whether a subject is "feeling" a drug.  The reason its such a valuable measure is because it takes into account "all" of the effects regardless of whether a subject thinks they are positive or negative.  In these types of studies, it's the second measure you typically examine, then view the others to figure out more specifically what the subjects were experiencing.

Escitalopram produced a significant decrease of about 10 points on the any drug effect measure, which isn't small at all.  It's consistent with the older, survey-based studies that first appeared suggesting SSRI's decreased the effects of hallucinogens.  Unfortunately, there is not true placebo condition to compare to.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Other


Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Mushrooms Ineffective due to SSRI/SNRIs? [Re: badchad]
    #27596829 - 12/27/21 10:08 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

If the purpose of the study is to assess whether escitalopram attenuates the positive effects of psilocybin, I don't see how "all drug effects", including negative effects is a valid measure in the way you describe.

I'm not criticizing the face validity of the measure outright, I am criticizing using the face validity as the primary determinant for the validity of a specific effect (or effects) aggregated within this measure; doing so would undermine the content validity determined by the study design and hypotheses of the study. Construct validity composes both face validity & content validity for a reason - both must be considered :wink:

I trust the authors & peer-review board who decided the interpretation was sound when the authors say that "Escitalopram slightly but significantly [statistically] reduced psilocybin-induced increases in “any drug effect”" and "[d]aily escitalopram treatment for 2 weeks did not reduce the positive mood or mind-altering effects of a full dose of psilocybin in healthy subjects. Additionally, escitalopram pretreatment reduced untoward acute effects of psilocybin, including subjective bad drug effects, anxious-ego dissolution, anxiety, and nadir effects, compared with placebo pretreatment"

Perhaps I/the authors are missing something though... Happy to discuss the merits of the research methodology - I thoroughly enjoy doing so  :cheers:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


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InvisibleEmQuartz
Female User Gallery
Registered: 12/27/21
Posts: 16
Re: Mushrooms Ineffective due to SSRI/SNRIs? [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27613387 - 01/09/22 07:33 PM (2 years, 18 days ago)

Does anyone know of any real data regarding psilocybin and SNRIs? Most of what I've seen just assumes the same effects as SSRIs.


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InvisibleFungi.Love
Human
Registered: 01/08/22
Posts: 12
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Re: Mushrooms Ineffective due to SSRI/SNRIs? [Re: EmQuartz]
    #27616194 - 01/12/22 01:19 PM (2 years, 16 days ago)

This is kind of fascinating.

I did a genetics test a while back and the results are that most SSRI's cause negative side effects for me, or best case scenario... just don't work. (Had experienced it before the genetics test, so already knew that I didn't do well with SSRI's. Test just confirmed that it wasn't "all in my head")

Psychedelic's work very well for me though. I have never had a bad trip. Micro-dosing almost helps me like a dose of Vyvanse. I am diagnosed ADHD and have a prescription for Vyvanse. I don't combine the psychedelic's and the Vyvanse though.


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