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schpat
psychesomadelic



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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 3
#28129368 - 01/07/23 02:05 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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It's the hot line that rings whenever someone posts about how great a zip up PVC SAB is
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SirPsycho
Purple Belt in Google-Fu



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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: schpat] 1
#28129389 - 01/07/23 02:19 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
schpat said: It's the hot line that rings whenever someone posts about how great a zip up PVC SAB is 
"Look, up in the sky. It's the Cap Signal. Quickly to the Stipe mobile"
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Ask me about free Ps tampanesis, Ps subtropicalis and Ps cubensis (ESS) prints Balance in life is like running on ice.
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Stipe-n Cap


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: SirPsycho] 3
#28129648 - 01/07/23 06:27 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Hotline bling
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laughingdog
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28130868 - 01/08/23 02:48 PM (1 year, 19 days ago) |
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how many got started Magic Mushroom Growers Guide Oss & Oeric 1976
times change, but it filled a need then
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Stipe-n Cap


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: laughingdog] 1
#28130919 - 01/08/23 03:22 PM (1 year, 19 days ago) |
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Large rudimentary SAB, nice. See, old school innovation that actually made sense. Inflating that plastic top with an electric air purifier would not improve on the design, that's for sure....
Every noob reading this with their finger hovering over the amazon purchase now button: inflatable you say... 
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PsillySeeEms
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28131611 - 01/09/23 12:07 AM (1 year, 19 days ago) |
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Laminar flow is so easy to achieve with a plastic bag that even kids can do it.
How come sometimes I see people using plastic mushroom grain bags, and its like they want the air from the flow hood to inflate it. They literally hold it up so that filtered laminar air enters the bag. Obviously its creating turbulence inside the bag of sterile grains, so why don't they contam?
How is that any different than working inside an inflated shmuvbox bag?
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PsillySeeEms
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: PsillySeeEms]
#28131620 - 01/09/23 12:27 AM (1 year, 19 days ago) |
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I realize the filter inside an air purifier (even the 99.99 HEPA rated one in mine) isn't designed that way, to create that flow.
Maybe it could be.. if you cut up a bunch of straws, or small tubes, and made a grill full of them, stacked together on both sides of the pleated filter material of the HEPA. That would force the air to become more streamlined, but for only so far, just like a real laminar filter... That's the only thing special about them right? The way the air inlet and outlet air holes are designed?
I'm not gonna do any of that (maybe though, sounds like another fun project!), because I know a bag inflated with a good filter will give me a very decent success rate.
I don't know if it's gonna cause the incense smoke to billow around and fill the bag, or exit the arm and vent slits in the bag in a streamlined laminar manner yet either, but I will in the next few days 
Oh ya, receipts for how to make laminar flow with a bag, haha:
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: PsillySeeEms] 3
#28131912 - 01/09/23 09:12 AM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
PsillySeeEms said:
Laminar flow is so easy to achieve with a plastic bag that even kids can do it. 
LOL, yeah.
Quote:
The study of fluid dynamics describes the laminar, turbulent, and transitional flow of liquids and gasses. If water flowing through a plumbing system maintains a constant velocity at any point, laminar flow exists. At any point in a pipe, the motion, speed, and direction of the water remain consistent.
Your urine comes out of your body in much the same way that water flows through plumbing, you piss is laminar. Water flowing through a tube or an opening is very similar to gases flowing through the the internal geometry of a HEPA designed to produce lamina. Now, even though your piss and the water coming out of that bag is laminar, imagine putting your hand in flow....what's going to happen to that stream of piss  not so laminar The same applies to all laminar flow.
Your statement is a little misleading though because you're not taking certain things into account. That kid had to cut a hole in the bag, correct? the hole cannot be any shape or size, the geometry of the hole will dictate the flow; pressure and resistance will effect velocity, etc. So, all of the same principles still apply to the bag/hole.
Quote:
PsillySeeEms said: How come sometimes I see people using plastic mushroom grain bags, and its like they want the air from the flow hood to inflate it. They literally hold it up so that filtered laminar air enters the bag. Obviously its creating turbulence inside the bag of sterile grains, so why don't they contam? How is that any different than working inside an inflated shmuvbox bag?
The bag absolutely will contaminate if you do it incorrectly!
The "first air" coming from your hood is 100% Sterile, it contains 0 particulate, and is laminar. The HEPA used to produce laminar flow has a large face which is larger than the opening of the open myco-bag. When filling the myco-bag to produce a plenum for the colony, sterile technique must still be adheredto. You cannot place your hands in flow or hover them near or over the mouth of the bag because your hands and arms shed particles. The velocity of the flow will not only dislodge microscopic particles but your hands will produce turbulence by disrupting the flow.
The inside of the myco-bag has already been sterilized, so blowing turbulent sterile air into a completely sterile bag isn't a problem so long as no particulate gets blown in on that flow, hence the hand discipline.
What's the difference?
Your little machine does not produce laminar flow, the flow is not 100% sterile. Even if the unit produced 100% sterile first air and the flow was laminar from the face of the filter you're still left with the geometry of the bag and the objects found within the bag.
When inflated the bag will cause the flow to transition from laminar flow to turbulent flow. Transitional flow mixes the characteristics of laminar (this is assuming that your units initial condition is laminar) and turbulent flow. As the volume of air flows around the bag (when completely empty of materials like jars, etc.) the air currents will change direction and speed, causing the layers to mix and ultimately become turbulent.
Should you place any objects within the shmuv bag whatsoever: jars, plates, instruments, your hands and arms.... All of these items will effect the velocity and direction of the flow within the bag, all of these items will produce particles unless sterile. Your arms and hands will never be sterile, ever. The particles found on your hands and arms will be picked up by the gasses circulating within the bag, these particles are microscopic. Opening vessels in this environment will be risky.
Quote:
PsillySeeEms said: I realize the filter inside an air purifier (even the 99.99 HEPA rated one in mine) isn't designed that way, to create that flow.
Maybe it could be.. if you cut up a bunch of straws, or small tubes, and made a grill full of them, stacked together on both sides of the pleated filter material of the HEPA. That would force the air to become more streamlined, but for only so far, just like a real laminar filter... That's the only thing special about them right? The way the air inlet and outlet air holes are designed?
I'm not gonna do any of that (maybe though, sounds like another fun project!), because I know a bag inflated with a good filter will give me a very decent success rate.
I don't know if it's gonna cause the incense smoke to billow around and fill the bag, or exit the arm and vent slits in the bag in a streamlined laminar manner yet either, but I will in the next few days 
Oh ya, receipts for how to make laminar flow with a bag, haha:
I honestly feel like you're trolling at this point. If it was that easy, "just add straws" or "just tape a bag to it" wouldn't you think that these massive companies that purchase laboratory equipment would design a cheaper option for themselves, or at least hit up the dollar store for a pack of straws and a box of trash bags? 
Why spend millions producing clean rooms with FFU ceiling units, why purchase clean benches, just to flex and look cool? You could make a lot of money consulting for these companies.
Even if I taped a plastic bag around the opening of a legitimate flow cabinet the result would still be turbulence. It is not possible to encapsulate flowing gases at any velocity and maintain laminar flow. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE 
A SAB has still air, until I place my hands and arms into it which displaces the gas creating very low velocity air currents, even in this situation you can experience contamination. Pumping high velocity air into an enclosed space, whether it be a bag, tote, or an entire room can only result in one thing. Taping bags to laboratory grade clean benches will still produce turbulence. This is how fluid dynamics work, you cannot circumvent physics.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (01/09/23 09:53 AM)
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SirPsycho
Purple Belt in Google-Fu



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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 6
#28131962 - 01/09/23 09:57 AM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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What if I attach a shower curtain to this? I think it'll be laminar cause the plastic will make all the air go in one direction

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Ask me about free Ps tampanesis, Ps subtropicalis and Ps cubensis (ESS) prints Balance in life is like running on ice.
🅑🅞🅣🅣🅛🅔 🅖🅐🅝🅖
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Stipe-n Cap


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: SirPsycho] 4
#28131968 - 01/09/23 10:00 AM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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PsillySeeEms
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28131994 - 01/09/23 10:21 AM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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Appreciate the detailed answers. I swear I'm not trolling. I'm legit convinced the trash bag flow hood boxes i'm modifying are going to work fine. It's hard to convince someone as stubborn as me when know what I know, lol. If it fails, I will be sure to build a real flow hood, and let everyone know why. I'll show proof of the contams.. if there are any. Just waiting on my agar powder to show up in the mail.
I didn't want to start a shmuvbox thread until I get my unit finalized, with some solid proof of clean test plates being ran in it. I almost don't want to at all, but I will if you guys think I should, haha. I'm going to be very thorough, and even seal the inside of the plastic housing and the filter, just like you would on any real DIY setup. Even the buttons and the cord. The blower actually pulls through this model, to keep the internals clean i'm sure. Maybe I could simply reverse the flow, and work from the actual filter side...
Either way, It will have a pre-filter protecting the HEPA filter. Even a fan speed controller, to dial it in just right, if it works that is.
Anyway, I'll try and do a quick video test with just a bag taped on ASAP, to show how the smoke flows, maybe later tonight. Do you guys think the bag will just turbulently fill up with solid white smoke?
Or, will there be a steady non laminar looking stream coming from the source, going right out past the arm holes, but not back towards the inlet to the bag?
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SirPsycho
Purple Belt in Google-Fu



Registered: 01/01/20
Posts: 6,900
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: PsillySeeEms] 2
#28132003 - 01/09/23 10:24 AM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
PsillySeeEms said:when know what I THINK I know
FTFY
--------------------
Ask me about free Ps tampanesis, Ps subtropicalis and Ps cubensis (ESS) prints Balance in life is like running on ice.
🅑🅞🅣🅣🅛🅔 🅖🅐🅝🅖
    "Mist your balls and fan your asshole" - Pandaskis, 2023
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: PsillySeeEms] 3
#28132010 - 01/09/23 10:30 AM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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I think that the combination of the OP and the detailed responses to your questions paint a pretty clear picture.
I never said that a shmuvbox couldn't produce cultures or mushrooms; I said that it couldn't produce laminar flow.
Can you produce clean cultures while uaing a shmuvbox, absolutely. But you can produce clean cultures in open air without a shmuvbox, or a flowhood, SAB etc. You can get clean germ plates by shooting or streaking spore solution to agar. You can get clean spawn doing the same.
It is incredibly easy to produce cultures, spawn, and to grow mushrooms. We're not in a CDC setting working with ebola or some other virus. You can get away with an awful lot of shenanigans. Can you make the shmuvbox "work", yep, pretty sure eatyoualive used a shmuvbox and he grew a fuckton of mush. He's also a TC.
The topic of this thread covers the usage and the theory relating to equipment employed by cultivators; not the statistical probability of failure/success rates.
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PsillySeeEms
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: PsillySeeEms]
#28132021 - 01/09/23 10:37 AM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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Oh ya, and I opened up one of my aer1 desktop boxes I got for 39.99 @ target (it was an earlier revision from 2019) and low and behold, it had the expensive $35-40 purple 99.99 plus true hepa filter already installed! The box even shows the cheap hepa type blue filter and only says 99%. What kind of awesome false advertising is that?
I took the purple filter I bought (almost as much as the actual unit) and got my money back. So, 40 bucks for a unit that will deliver 99.99 sterile air by adding some ductape and a trash bag. Faster than you can saw 2 holes in a tub, and way easier to work in i'm sure..
OK i'll just start my own thread, sheesh....
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
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Loc: Canada
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: PsillySeeEms] 2
#28132027 - 01/09/23 10:40 AM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 2
#28132044 - 01/09/23 10:54 AM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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I have made an addition to the OP for absolute clarity.
Quote:
First:
Can you produce clean cultures while using any of the contraptions covered in this post, absolutely! But you can produce clean cultures in the open air without a box-fan flowhood, positive pressure box, shmuvbox, clean bench, SAB, etc. One can produce clean germ plates by shooting or streaking spore solution to agar, you can produce clean spawn by doing the same. It is incredibly easy to produce cultures, spawn, and to grow mushrooms. We're not in a CDC setting working with ebola or some other virulent, pathogenic virus or bacteria. Cultivators can get away with an awful lot of shenanigans. Can you produce mushrooms while using a shmuvbox, positive pressure box, boxfan flowhood, glovebox, etc? Yes!
Everything you can imagine "works" so long as you have the appropriate genetic materials like spores or live mycelium and a substrate upon which they will grow. The topic of this thread covers the usage and the theory relating to equipment employed by cultivators; not the statistical probability for rates contamination
I hope this will resolve any further misunderstandings.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (01/09/23 05:09 PM)
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dna24
Darth Randal



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Loc: Savages
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28132608 - 01/09/23 06:00 PM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said: You know what works?

ooh im jealous, that setup looks sweet, nice and simple with everything you need around it. i need your hood.
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 FUCK STIPE 
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: dna24]
#28132612 - 01/09/23 06:03 PM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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Simple and organized, I can get a lot of work done at this station.
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dna24
Darth Randal



Registered: 04/19/22
Posts: 360
Loc: Savages
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 2
#28132955 - 01/09/23 09:13 PM (1 year, 18 days ago) |
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i can only imagine, i wont even get a chance to sniff a hood till i get my living situation worked out. One Day, one day
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 FUCK STIPE 
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psichotic
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28140866 - 01/15/23 09:16 AM (1 year, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said: Large rudimentary SAB, nice. See, old school innovation that actually made sense. Inflating that plastic top with an electric air purifier would not improve on the design, that's for sure....
Every noob reading this with their finger hovering over the amazon purchase now button: inflatable you say...  
Man am I glad I found this site......and The Trusted Cultivators YT channel. The last line in the quote hit home. I had so much stuff in my cart, unneeded I should add, at Amazon it was ridiculous. I was blown away by TTC's Ronco results. Seriously made me take several steps back as I begin my noob mycology journey. Quite a few science denying hardheads in this thread...has me smh bigtime. Much reading to do here before I pull the trigger on what little stuff I have gathered so far. Thanks for this thread and this site. I was quite successful in another indoor cultivation hobby some years back but only after 2-1/2 years of research/studying before the first bean went in a folded, damp paper towel. Much less equipment needed to kick this adventure off compared to that but knowledge is still the most valuable player in my mind.
Edited by psichotic (01/15/23 09:30 AM)
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