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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs * 28
    #27615199 - 01/11/22 02:05 PM (2 years, 16 days ago)

Positive pressure boxes, Box fan flowhoods, Gloveboxes, and Automated Mono-Tubs.


Plenty of new folks have questions regarding equipment, their application and efficacy. From YouTube influencers, sub reddits, to Facebook and Instagram, there's no shortage of encouragement regarding these devices; let's take a moment to talk about these contraptions.

First:

Can one produce clean cultures while using any of the contraptions covered by this post? absolutely!

Cultivators with little to no experience can produce clean cultures in the open air without a box-fan flowhood, positive pressure box, shmuvbox, clean bench, SAB, or any other known cultivation tool. Humans have been growing mushrooms for thousands of years.

One can produce clean germination plates by shooting, or streaking multispore solution onto agar; clean spawn can be produced by spraying MS-solution liberally over cereal grains. It's incredibly easy to produce cultures or spawn, and by extension to grow mushrooms; anything can be achieved with a little luck.

We're not operating in a CDC clean room environment with virulent/pathogenic viruses or bacteria, cultivators can get away with an awful lot of shenanigans on a small enough scale.

Can you produce mushrooms while using a: shmuvbox, positive pressure box, boxfan flowhood, glovebox, etc? Yes!

Everything "works" so long as you possess the appropriate genetic starting materials like spores, or live mycelium, and a substrate upon which they will grow.

Cubensis will grow on manure, cigarette butts, bibles, fancy underwear, rags, etc. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

The topic of this thread covers the usage and theory relating to equipment employed by cultivators, not the statistical probability for rates of contamination while using them. Having said that, the statistical probability of failure is much higher while employing incorrect equipment or techniques.


Let's start with the appropriate equipment first, once those are explained things will make more sense when we go over the fundamental flaws of the others.

Laminar Flowhood/Fan Filter Unit (FFU)




A laminar flow cabinet/FFU utilizes velocity and geometry to force air currents into ordered lamina through a filter designed to efficiently remove particulate down to at least .3 microns. These filters are specifically designed for laminar flow applications.

Laminar flow cabinets are calibrated to produce a flow rate of 90-110 feet/min evenly across the entire face of the filter. This velocity will ensure stable flow without transitioning to turbulent flow.



This lamina has been arranged by the resistance generated by the HEPA filter (static pressure), the internal geometry of the filter, and the volumetric output of the blower.

The blower has been matched precisely to the surface area of the filter face, and to the filters resistance/flow rate @ 90-100fpm; this combination allows for sterile, turbulence free air to flow over your work area.









The turbulence generated by objects in flow (including your hands and tools) has the potential to pick up microscopic contaminant particles off of your hands, etc, and then deposit those particles into your work if you do not have great technique. Needless to say, these particles will produce mold.

Attention to detail is important when working with microorganisms, sterile work not only requires sterile media but proper maintenance of that sterility by minimizing exposure to potential contamination while working. Plan ahead of time where to place objects in flow; plan how you expect to move, where to place utensils; and how not to produce unnecessary turbulence by crowding your work area or by placing objects between the filter face and your work while moving.




Still Air Box






A still air box on the otherhand is an enclosed area that allows for particles to settle via gravity due to the absence of turbulent air currents that would otherwise keep them aloft, this is why they're called a "still air box".

Slow, calculated movements are required to prevent creating turbulence which will carry contamination into your work.



This is showing the time to settle in still air from a height of 1.5m; allow ample time for particles to settle in your still air environment.

Household dust typically consists of some combination of: human skin flakes and animal fur; decomposing insect parts; food debris; lint and fibers from clothes, bedding, and other fabrics; tracked-in soil; soot and ash; particulate matter from smoking and cooking; and allergens and pollutants from the environment. Climate also affects the composition of dust.

When operating your SAB: Turn off fans, AC or furnace ducts that disturb air currents within your space. Don't place speakers on top of your SAB; don't bang your SAB; don't place warm lights in contact with the top of your SAB; Keep your work elevated off of the floor of the box where the contsminant particles will settle; do not spray isopropyl alcohol inside of your box; do not flame sterilize instruments inside of your box.....don't disturb the air within the 'SAB' at all, up to and including pumping air directly into your SAB (filtered or not).

Use a SAB if you do not have an appropriate flow cabinet/FFU!


Glove Box



By securing gloves to the opening of your box you will be creating a vortex type turbulence within the box:






Gloveboxes create vortex type turbulence within an enclosed space, the frequency and amplitude of that turbulence is far greater than that of external air currents that interact with a standard SAB.

Don't make a glovebox:

"A glove box is a sealed container used to manipulate materials where a separate atmosphere is desired. They are commonly used to protect workers from hazardous materials or to protect chemicals and materials that may be sensitive to air or water vapor"

Glove boxes are not suited for microbiology, do not attempt to build or use one of these for cultivation.


Positive Pressure Box



As you can see these are SAB' outfitted with fans, the addition of fans will create a turbulent air box.

Positive pressure implies airflow into an enclosed area which means that this air regime will by definition become turbulent flow due to the geometry of the ducting and work area.

When turbulence is introduced into a system it creates turbulent eddies within the workspace:



These eddies will inevitably move particles (mold spores etc) around and into your work. This is no bueno.

No matter how clean your environment may appear to the naked eye, this is the reality:



Particles are suspended in open air as well as inside of your box. You are covered in particles, you shed particles produced by your skin, your hair, your respiratory system, etc.

SAB' work because you're allowing gravity to settle airborne particles that line/coat the plastic walls, floor, and ceiling of your tub, including any ductwork should you attempt to attach fans; this will remain true even if you were capable of evacuating all particles from the system due to the particles found on your arms, jars, bags, petri dishes, etc.

Introducing any gases, filtered or not, will kick these invisible particles back up into the air due to the velocity of the introduced gas and the internal geometry of the box.

Any air movement in a confined space will create turbulence/eddies.

Turbulence = contamination, no exceptions!

Not suited for microbiology, do not attempt to build or use one of these for cultivation.


Box Fan Flowhood/budget "flowhoods"



Check out the mold babies this guy created with his "flowhood"



"Gordo tek" is nothing more than a low quality filter matched to an over powered blower. This is not a flowhood:



1 fan + 1 filter doesn't equal anything other than mold.

Why doesn't this "budget flowhood" work? Well, remember that laminar flow is required which is the product of resistance, velocity, and geometry; furthermore the filter is not designed to filter out microscopic particles with high efficiency.

A blower attached to a filter, or set of filters, would be more aptly called a "blowhood". The particle sampling data clearly illustrates how ineffective the standard hardware store filters are when it comes to filtration efficiency.

3 reasons why a boxfan/blowhoods fail to mimic actual clean benches:

1. The velocity produced by a box fan falls well short of the minimum required to produce laminar flow;

2. Hardware store filters are not the sort of filter designed for high efficiency particle filtration, even if they were, not all HEPA filters are designed for laminar flow applications;

3. The filter does not produce enough resistance and does not possess the correct internal geometry to align the airlflow into lamina.

As a result you're left with a turbulent flow machine that sucks in contaminant particles, (maybe the filter catches some of the larger debris like cat hair, etc) but ultimately blows microscopic particulate all over your work area.


Quote:

Brewtality said:
I have some data to add to this thread.

I am not sure of the tek responsible for proper construction of a "Blowhood", but I went to Homie Depot and picked up the finest ingredients available on the shelf.

1 Lasko (Made in the USA) 20" box fan.
1 Honeywell 20"x20"x1" Elite Allergen Air Filter - FPR10
Roll of tape.

A quick run through the Gargler told me FPR10 is roughly equal to MERV13.

I ran a few tests using a Lighthouse Solair 3100 Particle Counter and these are the results.

This strictly evaluates the potential for contamination based on the number of particles in the air. Organisms that contaminate don't have feet, they don't walk into your plates, they ride on particulate.

The testing and method:
The samples were collected 12" from the filter face.
Each location was sampled 5 times and the results were averaged.
The sample duration was 1 minute.
The sample size was equal to 1 cubic foot of air.
All values represent particles 0.5 microns and larger.

Background Sample: Room Air Sample, no fan running (Aka Baseline)
High: 299,691
Low: 296,907
Average: 298,246 particles per cubic ft

Fan Sample: - Fan running on high with no filter
High: 284,209
Low: 260,840
Average: 270,921 particles per cubic ft

Fan with Filter: Speed setting 3 (High) with Filter attached.(Avg velocity 180 ft/min)
High: 61,895
Low: 29,653
Average: 39,734 particles per cubic ft

Fan with Filter: Speed setting 1 (Low) with filter attached. (Avg velocity 79 ft/min)
High: 20,190
Low: 18,577
Average: 19,571 particles per cubic ft

Chinese FFU Imported and marketed to the mushroom farmer: Speed Setting 3 (Average velocity 63ft/min)
High: 0
Low: 0
Average: 0 particles per cubic ft

The data above shows that using the method I have outlined the box fan filter fails to adequately reduce the particulate load when compared to a proper HEPA filter. You can decide if your time and money are worth the risks.




Particles sampled using this equipment:

https://www.golighthouse.com/en/airborne-particle-counters/solair-3100

Brewtality certifies clean benches and clean rooms for ISO classification.

Common hardware store filters do not efficiently reduce airborne particle concentrations, they are not designed for laminar flow nor do they produce laminar flow; this class of filters will produce particles. 


Not suited for microbiology, do not attempt to build or use one of these for cultivation.


Automated Mono-Tub




Quote:

auΒ·toΒ·maΒ·tion

noun

the use of largely automatic equipment in a system of manufacturing or other production process.




Mono-tubs are equipment that are used for the production of mushrooms, this equipment, despite lacking electricity or moving parts, is automated. Mono-Tubs are 100% self contained, self sufficient, self regulating, self humidifying, fresh air exchanging environments.



By properly hydrating your substrate at an appropriate depth you are creating a moist/humid environment, this environment will maintain the appropriate humidity throughout the fruiting cycle providing that there isn't excessive air movement in the room you choose to house them in. No need for fanning, no need for misting.

The holes on the walls of the tub allow for warm air created by your culture to travel up and out of the holes situated at the top of your tub, as well as the gaps between your lid (so long as the tubs aren't stacked); as the warm air exits through the top holes as fresh air comes in through the holes situated at substrate level. This is passive automation, mono-tubs are designed to not require active automation. The addition of automated humidifiers and fresh air exchangers actually inhibits the efficiency of microclimate to regulate itself.

I personally prefer modified tubs (tubs with holes drilled into the ends below the handles and sides above the substrate level) for this reason: they can be stacked;

Unmodified tubs (tubs without holes) lose airflow when stacked for obvious reasons (the lid gap is closed when stacked which prevents airflow ; ) )

I have never once saw a tub automated by the addition of some contraption out-perform a dialed mono, and neither have you.

Don't use automated mono-tubs.


UV light's


Ultraviolet germicidal irradiation (UVGI) is a disinfection method that uses short-wavelength ultraviolet (ultraviolet C or UV-C) light to kill or inactivate microorganisms by destroying nucleic acids and disrupting their DNA, leaving them unable to perform vital cellular functions

Ultraviolet lights are 100% unnecessary, this equipment has no application for the production of agar plates, liquid media or spawn.

1. Sterilization is required for media and grain spawn, why attempt to use two methods of sterilization when steam sterilization is the most versatile and effective of the two?

2. UV light cannot penetrate grain, this should be self evident, this is why we utilize autoclaves and pressure cookers;

3. Pressure cookers/autoclaves destroy bacterial endospores, UV does not compare:

Bacillus endospores are 5–50 times more resistant to UV radiation than their corresponding vegetative cells

https://academic.oup.com/femsec/article/51/2/231/503139

4. Agar and other liquid media is sterilized using autoclaves/pressure cookers, it would be pointless to utilize UV to sterilize groups of individually poured petri dishes;

5. UV lights will not sterilize the "air" within a glove box, positive pressure box, SAB, etc.

Ultraviolet lights are pointless, do not attempt to use these tools for the purposes of producing clean cultures.
Steam sterilization is effective and safe., UV is not.

UV has no practical application for  mushroom cultivation.

https://www.ehs.washington.edu/about/latest-news/trouble-uv-light-your-biosafety-cabinet


Ozone

When inhaled, ozone can damage the lungs. Relatively low amounts of ozone can cause chest pain, coughing, shortness of breath and, throat irritation. It may also worsen chronic respiratory diseases such as asthma as well as compromise the ability of the body to fight respiratory infections.

Just don't use ozone, please...smh :facepalm3:

Adopting poor habits, using the incorrect tools or procedures does not make you a pioneer or a trailblazer, it makes you a noob.

Use the right tools for the right job, employ the proper procedures and techniques.








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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: bsmyla] * 12
    #28443594 - 08/23/23 08:47 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Our houses are better suited to mold and bacteria, if you attempted to grow mushrooms without the proper techniques or equipment, you'd have mold and bacteria more often than not. This is evidenced by the failures of new growers.

Mushrooms are suited to their particular environmental niche, outdoors, that's why you can find them there, successfully fighting mold and bacteria.

By growing them indoors you remove their natural ability to move and fight environmental competition by providing a hospitable environment more suited to the competition; we need to provide an ecological vacuum by producing sterile media so that they can flourish unimpeded by aggressive competitors.


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OfflineBrewtality
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: ruawakeyet] * 7
    #28022118 - 10/28/22 09:19 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

I have some data to add to this thread. Anecdotes tend to rub me the wrong way.

I am not sure of the tek responsible for proper construction of a "Blowhood", but I went to Homie Depot and picked up the finest ingredients available on the shelf. Please feel free to ridicule me for my noobness.

1 Lasko (Made in the USA) 20" box fan.
1 Honeywell 20"x20"x1" Elite Allergen Air Filter - FPR10
Roll of tape.

A quick run through the Gargler told me FPR10 is roughly equal to MERV13.

I ran a few tests using a Lighthouse Solair 3100 Particle Counter and these are the results.

This strictly evaluates the potential for contamination based on the number of particles in the air. Organisms that contaminate don't have feet, they don't walk into your plates, they ride on particulate.

The testing and method:
The samples were collected 12" from the filter face.
Each location was sampled 5 times and the results were averaged.
The sample duration was 1 minute.
The sample size was equal to 1 cubic foot of air.
All values represent particles 0.5 microns and larger.

Background Sample: Room Air Sample, no fan running (Aka Baseline)
High: 299,691
Low: 296,907
Average: 298,246 particles per cubic ft

Fan Sample: - Fan running on high with no filter
High: 284,209
Low: 260,840
Average: 270,921 particles per cubic ft

Fan with Filter: Speed setting 3 (High) with Filter attached.(Avg velocity 180 ft/min)
High: 61,895
Low: 29,653
Average: 39,734 particles per cubic ft

Fan with Filter: Speed setting 1 (Low) with filter attached. (Avg velocity 79 ft/min)
High: 20,190
Low: 18,577
Average: 19,571 particles per cubic ft

Chinese FFU Imported and marketed to the mushroom farmer: Speed Setting 3 (Average velocity 63ft/min)
High: 0
Low: 0
Average: 0 particles per cubic ft

The data above shows that using the method I have outlined the box fan filter fails to adequately reduce the particulate load when compared to a proper HEPA filter. You can decide if your time and money are worth the risks.

Additional info to consider: I attempted to use this method to test my Still Air Box. The nature of this test (vacuuming air through a tube) negates the primary function of the SAB, so I didn't include the results for comparison. Let me know if you think it should be added.


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OfflineSirPsycho
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes. [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 6
    #28131962 - 01/09/23 09:57 AM (1 year, 18 days ago)

What if I attach a shower curtain to this? I think it'll be laminar cause the plastic will make all the air go in one direction



:specialralph:


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 6
    #28230537 - 03/15/23 09:57 AM (10 months, 8 days ago)

I'm going to double post here, why? Because I can.

I've often been told that using a butter knife in lieu of a proper slotted screwdriver is, well, less than ideal. I strongly disagree. Here's why:

For years I have been taking special care to heat the tips of my butter-knives; I bend/fold the tips in onto themselves like I'mmakimg Damascus steel, I then harden the tips.

My screwdriver tek works every time. I experience very few failures when driving screws into my deck, or when hanging pictures of my dog in the den.

My engineering skills have produced an end product which more or less mimics the original tool. Yes, I know what you're going to say: "why don't you just purchase a real screwdriver at the hardware store? It's far easier, plus they're cheap and purposely designed for driving screws"

Answer: Because I like to experiment! I'll be damned if anyone tells me that my screwdriver doesn't work, because it does.
Check out this picture of my dog, the frame was hung using my tek:






That's how I read many of the responsesto this thread. "Engineers" producing solutions to problems which don't really exist, armed with butter-knives when all they needed was a screwdriver.

Never bring a butter-knife to a screwdriver fight :lol:


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Invisibledowodenum
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: CocaineBuffet] * 6
    #28240546 - 03/21/23 09:36 PM (10 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

CocaineBuffet said:
Another what should be a temporary solution that has been going on long term.




"Nothing is quite as permanent as something temporary that works."

Old Russian proverb


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: San Pedro Girl] * 6
    #28263378 - 04/05/23 10:23 AM (9 months, 18 days ago)

Let's not allow that individual to further derail the thread. They're on 30 day shore leave to ponchovilla.

So, how about that laminar flow, pretty epic amirite? I mean, still air is pretty dope, but that lamina? So orderly, so parallel....it's almost like air has become transmuted into a fluid. :lol:

A fluid shaped by pressure, geometry, and velocity to flow smoothly without lateral mixing 😍


Sure does beat that old still air, or does it? I guess there are pros and cons associated with each design, pretty hard to take decent spore prints in flow, for example; or how about those moldy wild samples taken while foraging? Wow, science sure is interesting.

I'm glad we don't require a degree in engineering to grasp these simple principles. With just a little bit of consideration I bet even a child could grasp the fundamental physical principles which govern still air, turbulent flow, and laminar flow.



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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: SirPsycho] * 6
    #28320655 - 05/15/23 01:58 PM (8 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

SirPsycho said:
A thought occurs.

How come none of the people that post their fancy chambers ever actually have any mushrooms growing in them?





fancy tub w/mushrooms


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 5
    #27711233 - 03/28/22 06:56 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Bumping to remind you kids to stop buying dumb shit.:lol:


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 5
    #28022556 - 10/29/22 09:22 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

As the volume of spawn production increases so to do the vectors.


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: SirPsycho] * 5
    #28211331 - 03/02/23 05:14 PM (10 months, 21 days ago)

This hill gets stormed by noobs at least once per month, you'd think their skeletons would serve as a deterrent :rofl:


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OfflineSan Pedro GirlS
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: Shroomin4u] * 5
    #28211376 - 03/02/23 05:47 PM (10 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomin4u said:
Two points, stop calling me a noob if you don't like ad hominem you hypocritical oaf. Although I suspect this was bait to get me to attack you.

Second point. You are purposefully ignoring the price of HEPA filters and the fans that can overcome those kind of resistances. They range from a minimum of 200-900$

Gaskets, hinges, latches, etc. Plywood, 2x4s, etc. Cost a extremely small fraction of that. Not to mention you have to match your fan and filters with laminar math (because laminar flow is a mathematic equation.) A good quality GB would cost a fraction of what a laminar flow hood would.

As well SABs are just primitive Glove boxes. Or rather glove boxes are just upgrades to still air boxes.

Pretending like I want to slap gloves into drilled holes in a plastic bin is just what you want to hear because you can't even imagine that you're wrong. So you'll just contuine living in delusion and beleiving that I'm not as smart as you (how sad.)

-sidenote You don't need inert gas for a glovebox, but you could easily purchase said gas from a welding shop if you wanted to use it.



The crew around here are more about practical application vs speculation. A lot of members grow well using SABs and FFUs. Hell, some even do open air transfers. A lot have failed or discovered the useless/inferior nature of glove boxes, but the point is they are speaking from experience. The best way to prove your point is to knock out some amazing, contamination free grows with your glove box, showing that with the same money/time commitment you get better results than other methods.

I promise that Stipe-n cap, et al will shut up and respect you for demonstrating innovation with results. Or if you come back after trying and failing, but learn from that failure, they’ll also respect you. I think what they’re having a hard time with is obstinance sans results.

Welcome and good luck!😊


--------------------


Edited by San Pedro Girl (03/02/23 05:58 PM)


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: Way] * 5
    #28231623 - 03/16/23 07:20 AM (10 months, 8 days ago)

What the fuck does McDonald's have to do with anything?


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 5
    #28232332 - 03/16/23 05:05 PM (10 months, 7 days ago)

:boot:


Edited by mushboy (03/16/23 05:10 PM)


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: San Pedro Girl] * 5
    #28240474 - 03/21/23 09:08 PM (10 months, 2 days ago)

I have it sitting on a few of the packaging strips it came with. Reduces the vibration of the table it is on. Not elegant but it works :shrug:


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: SirPsycho] * 5
    #28263312 - 04/05/23 09:35 AM (9 months, 18 days ago)

One does not simply fook aboot without finding oot:popcorn:


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: SirPsycho] * 5
    #28319873 - 05/14/23 07:50 PM (8 months, 10 days ago)

Is that pop bottle Bluetooth? How did you get mushrooms without wires?


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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: NFLProof] * 5
    #28320647 - 05/15/23 01:50 PM (8 months, 9 days ago)

A thought occurs.

How come none of the people that post their fancy chambers ever actually have any mushrooms growing in them?


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Invisiblesandman420
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 4
    #27711247 - 03/28/22 07:16 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

:underageban: :raisemyglass:


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- Sandbag Tek - How To Sterilize Spawn Bags - All About Static Pressure / Pressure Drop for DIY Flow Hoods - Sandman's LC Tek-

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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Box fan flowhoods, Glove boxes, Positive pressure boxes and Automated Mono-Tubs [Re: LiquidGlass] * 4
    #28018745 - 10/27/22 06:17 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

you could post up some pics or examples of your 'great results'.

not trying to be a dick but anyone can just use their own definition of great but without context its meaningless.


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