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Asante
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Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through them
#27598779 - 12/29/21 03:22 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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If any ole source claimed this, I'd consider it conspiracy, but its none less than the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, organisation of geniuses of the atomic age including Einstein, keepers of the Doomsday Clock and watchdogs against disruptive technologies.
Black communities are fed deliberate falsehoods to weaponize their response into being a detriment to themselves anjd society, such as urging them not to get vaccinated or to inflame tense racial situations.
Frankly you see this ALL THE TIME on places like facebook.
Be advised about this.
A lot of "BLM stupidity" in reality is being systematically injected into black communities to destabilize race relations and wreak societal havoc.
Who wants to discuss this from a political angle?
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doubleD
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Asante]
#27599659 - 12/30/21 09:56 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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"ADVISE TAKEN" I'll be on the lookout big guy
-------------------- teach your kids to recognize and despise all the propaganda
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Mach z 800
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: doubleD] 2
#27599732 - 12/30/21 10:57 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Lol sounds like they are following Americas foot steps🤣😅.
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Oz_Salvia
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Asante]
#27600915 - 12/31/21 08:16 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, I've run a number of false flag fake FB accounts to discourage the indigenous from getting vaccinated in the endeavour many don't so they die when COVID makes the rounds. This will upset many liberals who love POC, well tough shit. Kiss my white gawd given ass! Yep, proud as hell to be racist! 
FB has tried to block. Just think how organised white men like me are conspiring together online with fake shit to fill shipping containers in POC!  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-18/facebook-ban-feared-dangerous-for-indigenous-vaccine-rollout/13166658

https://ntindependent.com.au/nt-government-orders-covid-19-portable-mortuaries-to-be-rolled-out/
The Gunner Government has ordered 10 refrigerated shipping containers it intends to use as COVID-19 morgues to be rolled out in Darwin, Alice Springs and Nhulunbuy, the NT Independent can reveal.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Oz_Salvia]
#27601670 - 12/31/21 07:50 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think blaming racial tensions in America on Russia is an excuse that expired about 75 years ago, and didn’t hold much weight before that.
And let’s not try to say the group of scientists who urged the West to believe that a nuclear war was inevitable is some objective fact disseminator.
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nooneman


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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Asante]
#27601702 - 12/31/21 08:17 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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It'd be nice if we could find some way to make peace with russia, but they seem dead set against that.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet


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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Oz_Salvia] 1
#27601970 - 01/01/22 03:52 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Happy New Year, Shroomery!
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: nooneman]
#27602121 - 01/01/22 07:58 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: It'd be nice if we could find some way to make peace with russia, but they seem dead set against that.
We broke treaties to put nuclear missiles on their border, then overthrew their government and intervened in the resulting electoral processes. To this day we sanction and blockade Russia, resulting in misery for millions of Russians.
But yeah, if only they’d understand we just want peace.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27602228 - 01/01/22 09:49 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's almost like the Russian govt can't event be blamed for the poverty and misery that has always existed in their own country . Putin is obviously an egalitarian.
Are you talking about the INF treaty ?
Edited by Psilynut2 (01/01/22 09:54 AM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Psilynut2]
#27602561 - 01/01/22 02:56 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Im talking about us using NATO to move missiles into Turkey, and then threatening to blow up the planet when the Soviets respond in kind by sending missiles to Cuba.
And what does Russia’s faults have to do with our constant Sabre rattling and near century long economic and political sabotage? Are you gonna argue those things are fine because not every Russian has an iPad or something
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27602564 - 01/01/22 02:57 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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The point is you’re a fucking rube if you think we’re spending trillions of dollars on a military because we want to reduce poverty and misery.
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Kryptos
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Re: too long [Re: Asante]
#27602646 - 01/01/22 04:16 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: Black communities are fed deliberate falsehoods to weaponize their response into being a detriment to themselves anjd society, such as urging them not to get vaccinated or to inflame tense racial situations.
This is true for any marginalized community, it just so happens that good old American racism makes black communities most susceptible. The most effective fighters are always the ones with the least to lose.
This also plays into ...certain... elements in the US. Have you seen the movie Snowpiercer? Do you remember that snece, when they finally storm the train, right after they realize the guards have no bullets? Who do they run into after they break the lines of the guards? The stand-in for the middle class white guy.
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Psilynut2
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Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27602670 - 01/01/22 04:36 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The point is you’re a fucking rube if you think we’re spending trillions of dollars on a military because we want to reduce poverty and misery.
What ? I think Russia's military spending is responsible for their poverty. I was just going to argue the poverty situation in Russia would be the same regardless of what we do . They have issues bigger than sanctions , you can't blame it all on us . Their economy has adapted to the sanctions that isn't really the reason .
Quote:
Much of that economic pain can be traced back to decisions taken inside the Kremlin. The coronavirus pandemic has exposed a failure to tackle longstanding structural problems, such as woefully underfunded hospitals and schools, low pensions and high levels of corruption that typically stops a large proportion of fiscal resources reaching their intended target.
Then, as the pandemic took hold, the government chose to abandon a $360bn investment plan designed to pump funds into poorer regions, and instead doubled down on protecting its $183bn national wealth fund — built up by years of austerity measures such as raising the pension age and increasing retail taxes — as a buffer against potential global shocks.
People are really at the end of the rope . . . [They] are reaching breaking point,” said Elina Ribakova, deputy chief economist at the Institute of International Finance. “This is the cost of the ‘fortress Russia’ strategy.”
“[The authorities] were so concerned about their external threats that they completely forgot about the domestic population . . . they have been ignored for too long and now they are getting frustrated.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/24b45679-ed22-4df7-89ab-f3d5fad71c95
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Psilynut2]
#27602689 - 01/01/22 04:56 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the point is that the sanctions are only helping fuel the right wing nationalist authoritarian movements that are actively participating in the giant state sponsored grift that is the Russian economy.
You cannot blame the US exclusively, but we aren't exactly the good guys in this situation either.
EDIT: I will also add, the Kremlin has lately really stepped up the, uh, Patriotism rhetoric. Russian society has, for the last 80ish years, been pretty saturated with the "glorious" nature of their victory over Nazi Germany, but it's really been stepped up a notch in the last few years. Lots of new monuments going up.
I don't think that's a good sign.
Actually, along with the topic I just started (which was originally a response here that kind of...grew...)I think there is a very real Russia/China vs. The World match up in the next few years, maybe decade. And I don't think there is any amount of money or patriotic rhetoric that can prepare the US/EU for an adequate response at this point, after Afghanistan.
Edited by Kryptos (01/01/22 05:05 PM)
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Psilynut2
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27602727 - 01/01/22 05:42 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Old people are the Kremlins main voting block . Not surprised that's happening . They don't have much else to be happy about . I dont think there's much risk . Russia isnt even capable of winning an arms race against us . Their economic reality wouldn't allow it .
Edited by Psilynut2 (01/01/22 05:43 PM)
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Brian Jones
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27602743 - 01/01/22 06:03 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
nooneman said: It'd be nice if we could find some way to make peace with russia, but they seem dead set against that.
We broke treaties to put nuclear missiles on their border, then overthrew their government and intervened in the resulting electoral processes. To this day we sanction and blockade Russia, resulting in misery for millions of Russians.
But yeah, if only they’d understand we just want peace.
I was following along with your last two posts till "We... overthrew their government". I'm not buying that at all. I'm sure we were filled with sneaky plans and contingencies. Whatever the level of support from the world community Gorbechev received, he was the engineer of the breakup of the Soviet Union, and he had strong domestic support from what I'm thinking was the middle strata of society, the educated. The old elites were obviously not with him. I think the workers started out with him. But I think he lost them. Like Putin, they long for the days of empire.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Asante
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Psilynut2] 1
#27602782 - 01/01/22 06:35 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said: Russia isnt even capable of winning an arms race against us . Their economic reality wouldn't allow it .
They dont have to, they have M.A.D
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Psilynut2] 1
#27602794 - 01/01/22 06:41 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said: Old people are the Kremlins main voting block . Not surprised that's happening . They don't have much else to be happy about . I dont think there's much risk . Russia isnt even capable of winning an arms race against us . Their economic reality wouldn't allow it .
Italy wasn't much of a threat either, back in the day. Hence why I specified Russia/China vs. The World.
I think there are very interesting parallels there, actually. Italy provided the fascist blueprint for Germany, just like Russia provided the state-sanctioned authoritarian gangster capitalism that I would argue China has perfected. Germany and China were ideologically followers, but economic leaders.
China is absolutely gearing up for some sort of confrontation, as is Russia. Both countries are fomenting dissident movements within their neighbors, analogous to Austria and that one compromise/appeasement that I forget the name of off the top of my head.
I am not making predictions here so much as I am doomsaying, I think there are a lot of things that need to fall into place for this to play out, but ai don't think that the sharply authoritarian turn of the non-european powers of the world bodes particularly well for the future. At some point, they will turn on an other.
Based on the relatively tame actions of Russia/China during the Trump years vs. the Biden years, and the nature of the modern GOP, I think it is within the realm of possibility that it becomes China/Russia/GOP-USA vs. The World. I expect some sort of explicitly eco-fascist message to take root in the GOP within the next decade as climate denialism stops being viable.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Asante]
#27603147 - 01/02/22 12:29 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said:
Quote:
Psilynut2 said: Russia isnt even capable of winning an arms race against us . Their economic reality wouldn't allow it .
They dont have to, they have M.A.D
And besides their ICBM arsenal, they have over 15,000 tanks. China is second with over 9,000. The U.S. has 6,000.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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nooneman


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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#27603149 - 01/02/22 12:35 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
nooneman said: It'd be nice if we could find some way to make peace with russia, but they seem dead set against that.
We broke treaties to put nuclear missiles on their border, then overthrew their government and intervened in the resulting electoral processes. To this day we sanction and blockade Russia, resulting in misery for millions of Russians.
But yeah, if only they’d understand we just want peace.
All I said was that it'd be nice if we could make peace with russia. It would be nice. And then I said they seem dead set against it. They are dead set against it. That's all I meant.
It was pretty simple: it'd be nice if we could make peace with russia, but they're dead set against it, all of which is true.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27603186 - 01/02/22 02:00 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
Asante said:
Quote:
Psilynut2 said: Russia isnt even capable of winning an arms race against us . Their economic reality wouldn't allow it .
They dont have to, they have M.A.D
And besides their ICBM arsenal, they have over 15,000 tanks. China is second with over 9,000. The U.S. has 6,000.
Tanks are irrelevant for modern warfare.
Edit: tanks are irrelevant for modern warfare between legitimately modern militaries. Tanks are absolutely relevant when you're fighting enemies using old Soviet gear from the 60s.
Tanks are also good for keeping a few thousand welders in Ohio on welfare employed at great expense to the US taxpayer.
Edited by Kryptos (01/02/22 02:05 AM)
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Psilynut2
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Asante]
#27603337 - 01/02/22 07:45 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
They dont have to, they have M.A.D
MAD isn't really something you have , it's also something that happens to you . If you factor out the nukes , we have a completely dominate Air Force . Russia has 140, 000 people working in their air force , we have 700,000 , not including the air power of our Army and Navy or NATO . Their plane numbers are pathetic compared to ours . In a conventional fight our airpower and our ability to deliver it overseas is so overwhelming we would level Russia and China , a ground invasion wouldn't even be required . Russia only has 1 serviceable aircraft carrier and Chinas aren't even worth mentioning , they can't return the favor .
Edited by Psilynut2 (01/02/22 07:46 AM)
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet


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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Psilynut2] 1
#27603461 - 01/02/22 09:18 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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The capability to mutually destroy each other with nukes is definitely something you have. Even if the whole US military stood down, North Korea doesnt have it.
Quote:
If you factor out the nukes
Do you seriously think Russia will "factor out the nukes" if the US infringes to far on them, for instance when they invade Ukraine?
They have single ICBM's with 16! MIRV warheads on them. One of those could knock out texas.
The US can play army all they like and get 10x the jets or whatnot, but fact is that that doesnt mean dick against Russia.
Bullying brown people in developing nations yes, but Putin won't feel a thing when he presses the button and over a gigaton of brute force closes in on the US from all directions at once.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Asante]
#27603632 - 01/02/22 11:11 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think Asante is right to a point. A shooting war between Russia/China and the US won't devolve into a nuke fight until the end, but it will eventually end with nukes.
However, a shooting war between the two countries will mostly consist of missiles. Anti tank missiles, anti air missiles, and shipkillers. That's why I think planes, tanks, and even aircraft carriers are going to be less of an effective combat force and more target practice.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Asante] 1
#27603805 - 01/02/22 01:25 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you seriously think
I'm starting to think you may understand the concept of talking about something hypothetically , that's what I'm thinking . Quote:
but Putin won't feel a thing when he presses
Pushing that button for him means Moscow won't exist 10 mins later. You know what MAD means right? That button may as well be directly wired to ours.
Quote:
for instance when they invade Ukraine?
I don't think they are going to invade , I'm not sure they can afford to , I think its all elaborate bluff to achieve something none of us really understand yet.
Edited by Psilynut2 (01/02/22 01:41 PM)
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Psilynut2
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Psilynut2]
#27603836 - 01/02/22 01:43 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
However, a shooting war between the two countries will mostly consist of missiles. Anti tank missiles, anti air missiles, and shipkillers. That's why I think planes, tanks, and even aircraft carriers are going to be less of an effective combat force and more target practice.
Possibly , but,
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/07/why-russia-china-or-north-korea-cant-kill-the-b-2-stealth-bomber-in-a-war/
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Psilynut2]
#27604095 - 01/02/22 03:58 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think something that's been flying openly for nearly three decades is likely, pardon the pun, on Russian radars.
Of course due to MAD theory I don't think that a war between the three will necessarily be exhaustive. I do see Ukraine becoming a proxy war very soon, and I think that will likely spread. A war in Ukraine doesn't even have to be fought for the purposes of a win, it could be fought to drive an effective wedge into NATO, Europe, and by extension, the entire concept of liberalism. And not economic neoliberalism, but the social concept of people having the right to self-governance. This is why I think it is no accident that this is happening while Biden is in office.
From my perspective, over the last few years, Poland's nationalist party, which has taken power, has effectively placed Poland back within Russia's sphere of influence in the name of nationalism. This was achieved by rejecting the EU.
And I think it's very similar to how the US GOP has taken over the non-college educated blue collar vote, which used to be reliably democratic. Poland is, essentially, the backwater rednecks of Europe. They have poor infrastructure, relatively low education, and Polish workers are routinely imported by other countries to do relatively unskilled labor. There are many reasons for this, mostly due to the fact that Poland has been picked over by other European powers for the last 200 years.
Polish nationalism and authoritarianism comes from the attempt to stop being the butt of the joke. Just like a Trump speech: "they are laughing at us".
I don't think the point of Putin, Xi, or even Trump is to conquer the world. I think the point of all three is to make people willing to give up their liberal democratic freedoms willingly in an attempt to reclaim some imagined lost respect.
That is why the EU is so dangerous, it's a bastion of reasonably successful, ideological, liberal democracy. Same with the democratic party in the US. That's why there are so many attempts to drive division, to make democracy seem ineffective. Because in the alternative, authoritarian, worldview, the majority of the population is willing to give that up.
That's why I don't think there is much point having an argument of who would win in a shooting war. The point of the war would not be a military victory. The point of a war would be for more PATRIOT acts.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27604340 - 01/02/22 06:55 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think something that's been flying openly for nearly three decades is likely, pardon the pun, on Russian radars.
They figured out how to pick it up along time ago . That doesn't give you the ability to shoot it down though . Your right it's a pointless conversation I just like to argue I guess.
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Asante
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Psilynut2]
#27604387 - 01/02/22 07:41 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said:. Quote:
but Putin won't feel a thing when he presses
Pushing that button for him means Moscow won't exist 10 mins later. You know what MAD means right? That button may as well be directly wired to ours.
Yeah but, he doesn't appear to be the kind of guy who, you know, feels
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Psilynut2]
#27604449 - 01/02/22 08:44 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said:
Quote:
I think something that's been flying openly for nearly three decades is likely, pardon the pun, on Russian radars.
They figured out how to pick it up along time ago . That doesn't give you the ability to shoot it down though . Your right it's a pointless conversation I just like to argue I guess.
It almost certainly does. Missiles tend to go faster than planes, because they don't need shit like pilots and life support and microwaves and two days worth of frozen meals in a minifridge (which the B2 has, by the way, according to your article). Missiles just need an engine and a warhead.
Human technology, as a general rule, is much better at blowing shit up than at protecting shit. It's just a lot easier to blow shit up. That's kind of the whole point of a stealth plane: you can't shoot down what you can't see. If you can see it, you can shoot it down.
Especially since, as your article points out, it barely flies faster than a passenger jet. You don't even need a missile. If you can spot it, you could probably shoot that thing down with an old MiG-15 left over from the Korean war. They fly about the same speed. Just give your pilot a radio to contact ground radar, because I don't think those came standard on the old MiGs. Or like, an iPhone would work. Once they're within 23 miles, they should be able to see it no problem (also according to your article).
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Psilynut2
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27604704 - 01/03/22 05:37 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Seems like an easy thing to spot in the dark from 23 miles away .
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27604955 - 01/03/22 10:48 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: I think something that's been flying openly for nearly three decades is likely, pardon the pun, on Russian radars.
Of course due to MAD theory I don't think that a war between the three will necessarily be exhaustive. I do see Ukraine becoming a proxy war very soon, and I think that will likely spread. A war in Ukraine doesn't even have to be fought for the purposes of a win, it could be fought to drive an effective wedge into NATO, Europe, and by extension, the entire concept of liberalism. And not economic neoliberalism, but the social concept of people having the right to self-governance. This is why I think it is no accident that this is happening while Biden is in office.
From my perspective, over the last few years, Poland's nationalist party, which has taken power, has effectively placed Poland back within Russia's sphere of influence in the name of nationalism. This was achieved by rejecting the EU.
And I think it's very similar to how the US GOP has taken over the non-college educated blue collar vote, which used to be reliably democratic. Poland is, essentially, the backwater rednecks of Europe. They have poor infrastructure, relatively low education, and Polish workers are routinely imported by other countries to do relatively unskilled labor. There are many reasons for this, mostly due to the fact that Poland has been picked over by other European powers for the last 200 years.
Polish nationalism and authoritarianism comes from the attempt to stop being the butt of the joke. Just like a Trump speech: "they are laughing at us".
I don't think the point of Putin, Xi, or even Trump is to conquer the world. I think the point of all three is to make people willing to give up their liberal democratic freedoms willingly in an attempt to reclaim some imagined lost respect.
That is why the EU is so dangerous, it's a bastion of reasonably successful, ideological, liberal democracy. Same with the democratic party in the US. That's why there are so many attempts to drive division, to make democracy seem ineffective. Because in the alternative, authoritarian, worldview, the majority of the population is willing to give that up.
That's why I don't think there is much point having an argument of who would win in a shooting war. The point of the war would not be a military victory. The point of a war would be for more PATRIOT acts.
Quote:
Kryptos said: I think something that's been flying openly for nearly three decades is likely, pardon the pun, on Russian radars.
Of course due to MAD theory I don't think that a war between the three will necessarily be exhaustive. I do see Ukraine becoming a proxy war very soon, and I think that will likely spread. A war in Ukraine doesn't even have to be fought for the purposes of a win, it could be fought to drive an effective wedge into NATO, Europe, and by extension, the entire concept of liberalism. And not economic neoliberalism, but the social concept of people having the right to self-governance. This is why I think it is no accident that this is happening while Biden is in office.
From my perspective, over the last few years, Poland's nationalist party, which has taken power, has effectively placed Poland back within Russia's sphere of influence in the name of nationalism. This was achieved by rejecting the EU.
And I think it's very similar to how the US GOP has taken over the non-college educated blue collar vote, which used to be reliably democratic. Poland is, essentially, the backwater rednecks of Europe. They have poor infrastructure, relatively low education, and Polish workers are routinely imported by other countries to do relatively unskilled labor. There are many reasons for this, mostly due to the fact that Poland has been picked over by other European powers for the last 200 years.
Polish nationalism and authoritarianism comes from the attempt to stop being the butt of the joke. Just like a Trump speech: "they are laughing at us".
I don't think the point of Putin, Xi, or even Trump is to conquer the world. I think the point of all three is to make people willing to give up their liberal democratic freedoms willingly in an attempt to reclaim some imagined lost respect.
That is why the EU is so dangerous, it's a bastion of reasonably successful, ideological, liberal democracy. Same with the democratic party in the US. That's why there are so many attempts to drive division, to make democracy seem ineffective. Because in the alternative, authoritarian, worldview, the majority of the population is willing to give that up.
That's why I don't think there is much point having an argument of who would win in a shooting war. The point of the war would not be a military victory. The point of a war would be for more PATRIOT acts.
I agree with much of what you said, but Poland is still in the EU and NATO. Their current political situation may be the way they're headed or it may be a temporary thing (probably can say the same thing about us/Trump).
On the obsolescence of tanks, it depends what you are trying to do. Missiles don't get you territory. If Russia invades Ukraine they will use tanks. They know it's nearly certain we will only respond with harsh words and sanctions. We wont start shooting anti-tank missiles or any other missiles.
In general I agree with your statement that the point of war is not military victory. For all practical purposes, neither the U.S. or Russia/USSR has won a war since WWII, and at some level they weren't trying to win. But I still think Russia wants Ukraine back in the empire, and a certain number of Ukrainians want that too.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Psilynut2
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27605012 - 01/03/22 11:28 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Majority of Ukrainians don't though , especially since 2014 . Russia doesn't have much to offer economically or culturally.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27605935 - 01/03/22 08:30 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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I actually saw another article in the NYT earlier today, specifically talking about how the EU is potentially looking at ways to revoke funding (which both Hungary and Poland gladly take) for nations that do not follow the principles of the EU. Both Hungary and Poland can be convincingly argued to have become a one party system. Orban openly calls himself an illiberal dictator, and has since like, 2015ish.
I also don't think tanks give you territory. Infantry gives you territory. Mechanized infantry does it better, but they use APCs and infantry support vehicles. Battle tanks belong to neither category. They are breakthrough vehicles designed for heavily defended front lines, a category of warfare that has been obsolete since the development of the guided missile. At least for people that can build and afford guided missiles.
Of course, for a proxy war in which one side is heavily outgunned, a token force of tanks can still be useful as a mobile gun platform. I believe I have read somewhere than an M1 Abrahms has never been destroyed by enemy fire in combat. I wonder if an M1 Abrahms has ever been hit by something that isn't 20 years older than it in combat.
Russia absolutely wants Ukraine back in the empire, and I think it is doing so by destabilizing the country through a bit of an arms race, while funding nationalist opposition parties. I think the ultimate goal is a far right nationalist government that isolates itself from (elitist) Europe and quietly finds itself back in Putin's warm embrace. Just like Poland.
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mycosis


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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27606044 - 01/03/22 09:47 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Saudi Arabia has lost a number of M1 Abrams tanks to Yemeni rebels.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Brian Jones]
#27606596 - 01/04/22 10:47 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
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The Ecstatic said:
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nooneman said: It'd be nice if we could find some way to make peace with russia, but they seem dead set against that.
We broke treaties to put nuclear missiles on their border, then overthrew their government and intervened in the resulting electoral processes. To this day we sanction and blockade Russia, resulting in misery for millions of Russians.
But yeah, if only they’d understand we just want peace.
I was following along with your last two posts till "We... overthrew their government". I'm not buying that at all. I'm sure we were filled with sneaky plans and contingencies. Whatever the level of support from the world community Gorbechev received, he was the engineer of the breakup of the Soviet Union, and he had strong domestic support from what I'm thinking was the middle strata of society, the educated. The old elites were obviously not with him. I think the workers started out with him. But I think he lost them. Like Putin, they long for the days of empire.
And who put Gorbachev into power?
Or maybe you think the voters decide history
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Brian Jones
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27607864 - 01/05/22 10:35 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't think we did, as a central cause. We supported perestroika and glasnost, assumably on self-serving as well as idealistic grounds. A lot of this started with Brezhnev and Andropov. Soviet communism ended primarily because enough top level Soviet communists wanted it to end. They knew it wasn't working.
I'm sure we had our fingers in the pie, but you give the U.S. way too much credit. How is it that we couldn't stop a peasant guerilla force in Southeast Asia, but we took out the USSR?
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Brian Jones
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Brian Jones]
#27607882 - 01/05/22 10:50 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: I actually saw another article in the NYT earlier today, specifically talking about how the EU is potentially looking at ways to revoke funding (which both Hungary and Poland gladly take) for nations that do not follow the principles of the EU. Both Hungary and Poland can be convincingly argued to have become a one party system. Orban openly calls himself an illiberal dictator, and has since like, 2015ish.
I also don't think tanks give you territory. Infantry gives you territory. Mechanized infantry does it better, but they use APCs and infantry support vehicles. Battle tanks belong to neither category. They are breakthrough vehicles designed for heavily defended front lines, a category of warfare that has been obsolete since the development of the guided missile. At least for people that can build and afford guided missiles.
Of course, for a proxy war in which one side is heavily outgunned, a token force of tanks can still be useful as a mobile gun platform. I believe I have read somewhere than an M1 Abrahms has never been destroyed by enemy fire in combat. I wonder if an M1 Abrahms has ever been hit by something that isn't 20 years older than it in combat.
Russia absolutely wants Ukraine back in the empire, and I think it is doing so by destabilizing the country through a bit of an arms race, while funding nationalist opposition parties. I think the ultimate goal is a far right nationalist government that isolates itself from (elitist) Europe and quietly finds itself back in Putin's warm embrace. Just like Poland.
Yes, but a proxy war in which one side is heavily outgunned describes most wars. WWIII is not going to happen, except on the last day of the world. Those 24,000 tanks, requiring maintenance, must have some purpose besides parades. The American made FGM-148 is a great anti-tank missile, designed precisely to take out Russian tanks, but Ukraine doesn't have enough of them.
I do think your sociopolitical theories on Poland and Hungary are a good analysis.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Brian Jones]
#27608456 - 01/05/22 09:49 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: Those 24,000 tanks, requiring maintenance, must have some purpose besides parades.
Target practice?
Keeping a few thousand Ohio tank mechanics voting for their senator? I guess that's US specific.
I really don't think that those tanks exist for any reason other than inertia. Probably economic inertia, but there might be a few generals too old for their own good. As far as I understand, armies are generally good at dealing with that. But, my first guess is it keeps people voting for the right guy as long as the defense budget increases. Military contracts are the last gasp of US manufacturing.
This is also why I think Iran's military is often underestimated. Their military, while decently small, still seems to consist entirely of missiles and various unmanned missile delivery systems. There is quite a lot to be said for precision airstrike capability that doesn't require training pilots.
Either way, I figure if a proxy war starts, Ukraine is going to end up finding a large pile of US missiles hidden somewhere. Definitely left over from Afghanistan. Definitely not freshly made, in return for some exploitative contract for Ukrainian industry.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: nooneman]
#27608844 - 01/06/22 09:10 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
nooneman said: It'd be nice if we could find some way to make peace with russia, but they seem dead set against that.
We broke treaties to put nuclear missiles on their border, then overthrew their government and intervened in the resulting electoral processes. To this day we sanction and blockade Russia, resulting in misery for millions of Russians.
But yeah, if only they’d understand we just want peace.
All I said was that it'd be nice if we could make peace with russia. It would be nice. And then I said they seem dead set against it. They are dead set against it. That's all I meant.
It was pretty simple: it'd be nice if we could make peace with russia, but they're dead set against it, all of which is true.
Ok great, but the implication here is that the US wants peace. We don’t.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Brian Jones]
#27608847 - 01/06/22 09:13 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: I don't think we did, as a central cause. We supported perestroika and glasnost, assumably on self-serving as well as idealistic grounds. A lot of this started with Brezhnev and Andropov. Soviet communism ended primarily because enough top level Soviet communists wanted it to end. They knew it wasn't working.
I'm sure we had our fingers in the pie, but you give the U.S. way too much credit. How is it that we couldn't stop a peasant guerilla force in Southeast Asia, but we took out the USSR?
Because we spent much more time and effort taking out the USSR than we did on a proxy war (against the USSR).
It’s like saying how did we put a man on the moon but can’t provide healthcare. Priorities.
I don’t think the US is solely responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union, but this prevailing narrative that “their government tried to do too much and also corruption so it failed” is incredibly shortsighted, and incredibly convenient to how history is told in this country.
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catcake1
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27611314 - 01/08/22 07:05 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Brian Jones
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27615843 - 01/12/22 06:27 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Until the end of 68, the communist forces in Viet Nam got more support from China than the USSR, which was also the case during the French involvement there.
On another note, I get the feeling that Putin is changing his mind every week on whether he wants to invade Ukraine. As he said, Lenin took it; it belongs to us. If he does, we wont do anything besides economic sanctions, and probably wont get much backing besides Canada and UK. A lot of Europe is energy dependent on Russia.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Brian Jones]
#27615989 - 01/12/22 09:26 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't think Putin changes his mind very often.
He does, however, rely on the appearance of uncertainty. This gives him control of the situation by forcing the US and EU into a reactive position.
What else do you do when you have to turn a losing hand into a win?
All I know is that I wouldn't want to play cards with Putin.
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Darwin23
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Asante] 1
#27625363 - 01/20/22 06:01 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is one of those perfect examples of the fundamental racism within anti-racism. It implies a failure of reasoning among black folks and attributes their mistakes to more cunning white interference. The article states that an insignificantly larger portion of the black population gets news from social media than the white population. It also lists the misinformation that blacks face. Of the four topics, only one of them is exclusive to the black community (black immunity). As someone from a community which is equally black and white in terms of population, I can confidently state that black immunity is not still widely believed (black folks are the only ones regularly wearing masks when there are no mask mandates).
--------------------
Take a look at my journal
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Kryptos]
#27625405 - 01/20/22 07:11 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
All I know is that I wouldn't want to play cards with Putin.
But you'd want him on your team for a game of charades!
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ModularMind
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Darwin23]
#27630452 - 01/24/22 02:09 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darwin23 said: This is one of those perfect examples of the fundamental racism within anti-racism. It implies a failure of reasoning among black folks and attributes their mistakes to more cunning white interference. The article states that an insignificantly larger portion of the black population gets news from social media than the white population. It also lists the misinformation that blacks face. Of the four topics, only one of them is exclusive to the black community (black immunity). As someone from a community which is equally black and white in terms of population, I can confidently state that black immunity is not still widely believed (black folks are the only ones regularly wearing masks when there are no mask mandates).
QFT B.O.L.E.!!!
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RedRH
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27632270 - 01/25/22 02:22 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
Asante said:
Quote:
Psilynut2 said: Russia isnt even capable of winning an arms race against us . Their economic reality wouldn't allow it .
They dont have to, they have M.A.D
And besides their ICBM arsenal, they have over 15,000 tanks. China is second with over 9,000. The U.S. has 6,000.
Good luck with getting all those tanks on shore here to attack us;)
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RedRH
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Darwin23]
#27632276 - 01/25/22 02:30 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Bingo! I agree. Funny that 4 years ago, I was not a racist but now I am according to the media and indoctrinators masquerading as "educators". Not only am I supposedly a racist, I am supposedly a domestic terrorist threat of the worst kind because I check off all the boxes on their list. My minority wife disagrees with them as do our children.
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Kryptos
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: RedRH] 1
#27632355 - 01/25/22 03:47 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Something tells me that either (a) you were a racist four years ago but didn't know it or (b) you watch too much grievance TV/Fox news.
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ModularMind
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Kryptos]
#27632514 - 01/25/22 05:20 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Something tells me that either (a) you were a racist four years ago but didn't know it or (b) you watch too much grievance TV/Fox news.
I’m finding your posts less and less in touch with the reality of the disseminated propaganda. Really got your heels dug in. That should work out well for you.
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christopera
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: ModularMind] 1
#27632741 - 01/25/22 07:42 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Grievance Tv

That’s amazing.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Kryptos
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: ModularMind]
#27633344 - 01/26/22 07:22 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ModularMind said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Something tells me that either (a) you were a racist four years ago but didn't know it or (b) you watch too much grievance TV/Fox news.
I’m finding your posts less and less in touch with the reality of the disseminated propaganda. Really got your heels dug in. That should work out well for you.
And I find your posts to be of mach quality with better spelling.
Nobody goes from non-racist to racist in four years. So, either you were always racist, or you're drinking the Fox News Kool aid.
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RedRH
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Kryptos]
#27633638 - 01/26/22 10:43 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Something tells me that either (a) you were a racist four years ago but didn't know it or (b) you watch too much grievance TV/Fox news.
I thought I made it very clear that I am not a racist and was referring to becoming a racist through label attribution and other's beliefs that I am simply because I check off the boxes that in their minds = RACIST! It is the changing definition of what is a RACIST that one finds they now meet the nebulous new definitions. So tell me: What defines a racist?
I took no personal swipe at you but see you could not resist suggesting that I am a racist or somehow "less than" for what you ASSUME is my choice in news sources. You are wrong on both accounts. That little "something" whispering in your ear is making a fool of you. This is a HUGE problem with the extreme left and extreme right that must shove everything into a box and label it. Enjoy wallowing in your ignorance.
The news and social media are a cancer for what they have devolved into. So what truths are you learning from your inner journey with psychedelics? I am keenly aware of my own biases and self deception. I urge anyone that requires news commentators telling them what to think and who to hate to open their eyes. Who needs to think when you have CNN, MSNBC, and Fox doing your thinking for you? I have no clue regarding your consumption of supposed "news" ,or information, and the sources of it. It is an easy trap to assume people can be summed up by their political beliefs or who they voted for. One thing I am not is a bootlicking blind follower of any party or person.
Edited by RedRH (01/26/22 11:03 AM)
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ModularMind
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: Kryptos]
#27633710 - 01/26/22 11:39 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
ModularMind said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Something tells me that either (a) you were a racist four years ago but didn't know it or (b) you watch too much grievance TV/Fox news.
I’m finding your posts less and less in touch with the reality of the disseminated propaganda. Really got your heels dug in. That should work out well for you.
And I find your posts to be of mach quality with better spelling.
Nobody goes from non-racist to racist in four years. So, either you were always racist, or you're drinking the Fox News Kool aid.
That racist spawns from CNN. I just don’t find your 2 options, decided by the ilk of the OG racists, to hold water. Siding with the current racist talking points of the day doesn’t in any way lessen your overt racism.
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ModularMind
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: RedRH]
#27633725 - 01/26/22 11:51 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RedRH said: It is the changing definition of….nebulous new definitions.
They prefer definition fluid. It’s the only arrow in their quiver across every aspect of society, politics, education, science, economics, etc.. Having failed the citizenry in education for so long affords them a great deal of manipulation of the ignorant.
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Kryptos
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Re: Outsiders like Russia extensively target Black Communities with Disinformation Warfare to disrupt society for and through... [Re: RedRH]
#27634080 - 01/26/22 04:38 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RedRH said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Something tells me that either (a) you were a racist four years ago but didn't know it or (b) you watch too much grievance TV/Fox news.
I thought I made it very clear that I am not a racist and was referring to becoming a racist through label attribution and other's beliefs that I am simply because I check off the boxes that in their minds = RACIST! It is the changing definition of what is a RACIST that one finds they now meet the nebulous new definitions. So tell me: What defines a racist?
I took no personal swipe at you but see you could not resist suggesting that I am a racist or somehow "less than" for what you ASSUME is my choice in news sources. You are wrong on both accounts. That little "something" whispering in your ear is making a fool of you. This is a HUGE problem with the extreme left and extreme right that must shove everything into a box and label it. Enjoy wallowing in your ignorance.
The news and social media are a cancer for what they have devolved into. So what truths are you learning from your inner journey with psychedelics? I am keenly aware of my own biases and self deception. I urge anyone that requires news commentators telling them what to think and who to hate to open their eyes. Who needs to think when you have CNN, MSNBC, and Fox doing your thinking for you? I have no clue regarding your consumption of supposed "news" ,or information, and the sources of it. It is an easy trap to assume people can be summed up by their political beliefs or who they voted for. One thing I am not is a bootlicking blind follower of any party or person.
Okay, so basically someone called you a mean word and you got all butthurt? Or, more specifically, someone called someone you identify with a mean word on TV, and you got butthurt by proxy?
And I'm the one that needs to do some thinking for myself?
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: RedRH]
#27634798 - 01/27/22 07:07 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RedRH said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
Asante said:
Quote:
Psilynut2 said: Russia isnt even capable of winning an arms race against us . Their economic reality wouldn't allow it .
They dont have to, they have M.A.D
And besides their ICBM arsenal, they have over 15,000 tanks. China is second with over 9,000. The U.S. has 6,000.
Good luck with getting all those tanks on shore here to attack us;)
That's a revelation. We have 5,500 nuclear warheads. No one is going to attack us here. The point was that Russia and China can do what they want on their side of the world, and ultimately, we can't stop them.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Asante
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27634871 - 01/27/22 08:07 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I would like the Dutch Government to make use of its strategic reserve of a ton of plutonium, and create a dozen or so nuclear bombs in the 50-80 kT range to equip the Royal Dutch Airforce with. These can later be refurbished as initiators of 1 Megaton hydrogen bombs in Phase II.
Then we get around the table with France in particular, also with the rest of the nuclear nations.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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RedRH
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27635065 - 01/27/22 11:34 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
And besides their ICBM arsenal, they have over 15,000 tanks. China is second with over 9,000. The U.S. has 6,000.
Good luck with getting all those tanks on shore here to attack us;)
Quote:
Brian Jones said: That's a revelation. We have 5,500 nuclear warheads. No one is going to attack us here. The point was that Russia and China can do what they want on their side of the world, and ultimately, we can't stop them.
We could stop them but the price would be massive. Germany is the key to determining if NATO will be around much longer if they do not get on board with sanctions, in my opinion. Now that they rely on Russian oil and natural gas due to the completion of the Russian pipeline, they have leverage over Germany. If Germany comes to it's senses and unifies with NATO, then NATO survives. If not, NATO will be a toothless mutt and the US should
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: RedRH]
#27635097 - 01/27/22 12:05 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nah, NATO's future depends entirely on the US. We are the least reliable member of NATO right now, and Germany is simply responding pragmatically. They know that the US cannot be relied upon past 2024, and therefore they cannot simply slam the door on Russian gas.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: RedRH]
#27635699 - 01/27/22 09:55 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RedRH said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said:
And besides their ICBM arsenal, they have over 15,000 tanks. China is second with over 9,000. The U.S. has 6,000.
Good luck with getting all those tanks on shore here to attack us;)
Quote:
Brian Jones said: That's a revelation. We have 5,500 nuclear warheads. No one is going to attack us here. The point was that Russia and China can do what they want on their side of the world, and ultimately, we can't stop them.
We could stop them but the price would be massive. Germany is the key to determining if NATO will be around much longer if they do not get on board with sanctions, in my opinion. Now that they rely on Russian oil and natural gas due to the completion of the Russian pipeline, they have leverage over Germany. If Germany comes to it's senses and unifies with NATO, then NATO survives. If not, NATO will be a toothless mutt and the US should
Yes, I said earlier we probably only have Canada and Britain with us in strong opposition if Russia invades Ukraine. Germany has energy dependence on Russia, and Eastern Europe is almost completely energy dependent on them. That about forces them into neutrality. Biden is talking about siphoning anti-tank missiles and other weapons to Ukraine through Baltic States like Lithuania and Estonia. That would be dangerous to the small states; it would motivate Russia to reabsorb them back into the empire for their insolence, and the argument could be made that it gives him a legitimate reason to do it.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#27635984 - 01/28/22 07:21 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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We created NATO on the pretext that
1) it was a bulwark against Soviet expansion 2) we would ourselves not expand NATO
The first pretext doesn’t exist anymore, and we broke the second one almost immediately.
So what is NATO if not just a tool for western imperialism? Why does anyone bother defending it or worrying about its legitimacy? It is entirely illegitimate.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27636053 - 01/28/22 08:55 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I remember the first one. I second one is highly debatable.
I have no problem with your, NATO is a tool for Western imperialism; and a functional way to keep our little Euro-allies with us.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27636335 - 01/28/22 01:34 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yet with Ukraine not yet able to join NATO Russia negotiates down the barrel of a gun. Who's the aggressor?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#27638949 - 01/30/22 07:42 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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ModularMind
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27638956 - 01/30/22 07:48 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Saw someone reference this as being “for the dead and wounded” Seemed suspicious.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#27639328 - 01/31/22 07:51 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: I remember the first one. I second one is highly debatable.
I have no problem with your, NATO is a tool for Western imperialism; and a functional way to keep our little Euro-allies with us.
Not sure what you mean. We absolutely made that promise during negotiations for German reunification.
Quote:
In early February 1990, U.S. leaders made the Soviets an offer. According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make “iron-clad guarantees” that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.” Less than a week later, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to begin reunification talks. No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany’s western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO’s expansion.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27639418 - 01/31/22 09:38 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's an op-ed. A lot of other sources do not agree.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#27639820 - 01/31/22 03:40 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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So you think the LA Times forged transcripts from James Baker?
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27639986 - 01/31/22 05:56 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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The transcript you linked specifically said: no formal deal was struck.
I guess this was before it was safe to assume that the US would go back on its word within four years.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27640090 - 01/31/22 07:42 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Someone should remind Putin that Russia isn’t the only nation capable of supplying LNG before he shoots himself and Ukraine in the foot.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27640162 - 01/31/22 08:52 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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He's not gonna invade Ukraine, he's just doing the nation-state equivalent of abusive gaslighting.
I think that's what Zelensky was saying earlier, too. Talk of imminent war does nothing but play into Putin's hands, by arousing national discontent. Then the invasion is no longer necessary. Just a nationalist isolationist movement that successfully alienates the west, and drives Ukraine back into Putin's bear hug.
Sorta like Poland. Or Crimea.
This war will be entirely psychological. The fact that the US's default foreign policy response is to send the marines only helps, because that tends to raise a few pulses after 20 years of very public drone strikes in the Middle East.
Putin is browbeating the populace into accepting his domination, using the potential threat of US drone strikes, by playing up an imaginary war that will never actually happen.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos] 1
#27640248 - 01/31/22 10:25 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: The transcript you linked specifically said: no formal deal was struck.
I guess this was before it was safe to assume that the US would go back on its word within four years.
Of course. But whether or not we kept our word isn’t the issue (it’s clear we didn’t). The promise was made, broken or not.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#27640726 - 02/01/22 10:51 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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And here is another interpretation. https://www.npr.org/2022/01/29/1076193616/ukraine-crisis-russia-history-nato-expansion I don't know the fine points of this issue, but to me a negotiation with Gorbachev has fuck all to do with the situation now with Putin. Gorbachev was more humane and honest than our Western leaders. If Putin isn't a dictator with plans to expand the empire he's 90% of the way there on both counts.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#27641924 - 02/02/22 07:05 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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An interpretation from the US government lol.
So when we break our word and expand NATO, it’s 
But when Putin hypothetically does it, it’s war.
I know it might be hard for some to process this, but Russia isn’t a the juggernaut that the USSR was 60 years ago. They want friendly governments in their sphere of influence as all nations do. Imagine if China teamed up with the Sinaloa cartel because we were “doing dictatorial empire expansion” by telling Mexico to halt Central American refugees, otherwise we’d fuck up their economy. That’s essentially what we’re doing in Ukraine. None of this is about democracy or freedom or some fear of a Russian invasion of Europe. We simply don’t want the EU to be so dependent on Russia for their energy, because then they’d have less reason to do everything we tell them to do.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27642222 - 02/02/22 10:48 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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James Baker was having a conversation with Gorbachev. That's all. He had no authority to make a deal, and Bush made no deal. So I'm saying your source (well the source referred to in your op-ed) was bullshit.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27642285 - 02/02/22 11:18 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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How does the Secretary of State not have authority? Even Trump’s stupid ass was smart enough to realize the US is the prime mover of NATO policy.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27642323 - 02/02/22 11:34 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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The Secretary of State only has the authority to make foreign policy on the President's behalf. Bush never signed off on this.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#27642559 - 02/02/22 02:24 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I know it might be hard for some to process this, but Russia isn’t a the juggernaut that the USSR was 60 years ago. They want friendly governments in their sphere of influence as all nations do. None of this is about democracy or freedom or some fear of a Russian invasion of Europe. We simply don’t want the EU to be so dependent on Russia for their energy, because then they’d have less reason to do everything we tell them to do.
They want friendly governments??
So Russia ratchets up tensions but it's somehow a plot by the West? Like I know you have good reason to be cynical of NATO but this is a problem created by Russia, not the other way around.
Russia amasses troops on a border and then declares there's nothing to see here it's the U.S./West that is the problem,.. that story is perverted.
Really you have to wonder what could have happened WITHOUT NATO as a deterrent. Probably similar to the expansion of China at the moment, 'reclaiming' nations that don't want to be reclaimed
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#27643679 - 02/03/22 10:11 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Maybe I’m the only one here with a memory that extends beyond a rolling 18 month period, but we are the ones who originally overthrew the Ukrainian government, creating a power vacuum that allowed ethnic Russians to seize parts of the country, spiraling into not civil war.
If Russia overthrew the Mexican government and sent the nation into a civil war on our border, and then we responded by trying to shore up political support in Mexico, would you say the US was ratcheting up tensions? Should we just allow a geopolitical enemy to set up shop on our border? No of course not. But when Russia does it, it’s some ghastly evil. We do the same shit with China and Taiwan.
And yet when Saudi genocides their neighbors to the south in Yemen, everything is kosher. You see, when our allies do something 100x worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine, somehow nobody gives a shit. That’s propaganda for you.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#27643685 - 02/03/22 10:14 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: The Secretary of State only has the authority to make foreign policy on the President's behalf. Bush never signed off on this.
Yeah I’m sure fucking *James Baker* went rogue in order to help Russia. The guy who grew up in Texas, ran BOTH of HW’s presidential campaigns, and served multiple neocon administrations, he was just making this shit up as he went. Come the fuck on man.
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#27643734 - 02/03/22 10:44 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I got downvoted into oblivion on reddit for attempting to explain that. I got a million replies advocating for more US weapons and greater NATO influence in the Ukraine. Thanks, Obama.
On NPR today they had some US representative on to talk about Yemen. The best part was that he said his interest is in protecting something like 60 thousand Americans in Saudi Arabia and that Iran is actively attacking the Saudi's, so it is American lives at risk. As if those Americans aren't allowed to come home.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: christopera] 1
#27643877 - 02/03/22 12:06 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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The US could be a case study in "when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27644032 - 02/03/22 02:14 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Maybe I’m the only one here with a memory that extends beyond a rolling 18 month period, but we are the ones who originally overthrew the Ukrainian government, creating a power vacuum that allowed ethnic Russians to seize parts of the country, spiraling into not civil war.
If Russia overthrew the Mexican government and sent the nation into a civil war on our border, and then we responded by trying to shore up political support in Mexico, would you say the US was ratcheting up tensions? Should we just allow a geopolitical enemy to set up shop on our border? No of course not. But when Russia does it, it’s some ghastly evil. We do the same shit with China and Taiwan.
And yet when Saudi genocides their neighbors to the south in Yemen, everything is kosher. You see, when our allies do something 100x worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine, somehow nobody gives a shit. That’s propaganda for you.
Good explanation  I'd just make the point that negotiation rather than sabre rattling is the way forward, lame I know, but .
Also, what other options does Ukraine have? Join NATO, rejoin Russia or limp along on it's own. The economy is a basket case.
Also the idea that NATO forces are ever going to step one inch into Russia just isn't going to happen, ever. If it does ever happen it's game over so the threat is effectively zero.
That's some decent propaganda as well from Russia.
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Black Cat
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#27644083 - 02/03/22 02:47 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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The USA is in the process of slitting it’s own throat and crumbling from internal turmoil and corruption. Russia is the least of its problems.
I love how Russia is still supposedly the evil aggressor even after the USA spent the latter half of the 20th century destroying the USSR through propaganda, proxy wars, constant military threats, and economic sanctions.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27644538 - 02/03/22 08:19 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said: The Secretary of State only has the authority to make foreign policy on the President's behalf. Bush never signed off on this.
Yeah I’m sure fucking *James Baker* went rogue in order to help Russia. The guy who grew up in Texas, ran BOTH of HW’s presidential campaigns, and served multiple neocon administrations, he was just making this shit up as he went. Come the fuck on man.
He didn't get to make deals that the President did not approve. You just cherry picked a story that made it sound like you were right. It doesn't matter what other neocon administrations Baker served. He was working for HW Bush and he was negotiating with Gorbachev.
Those are two separate points, but if we for a moment ignore the first issue, would negotiations we made with the Weimar Republic be binding on our relations with Hitler?
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: christopera]
#27646670 - 02/05/22 07:44 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said: I got downvoted into oblivion on reddit for attempting to explain that. I got a million replies advocating for more US weapons and greater NATO influence in the Ukraine. Thanks, Obama.
On NPR today they had some US representative on to talk about Yemen. The best part was that he said his interest is in protecting something like 60 thousand Americans in Saudi Arabia and that Iran is actively attacking the Saudi's, so it is American lives at risk. As if those Americans aren't allowed to come home.

Reddit is hopeless.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#27646671 - 02/05/22 07:48 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said: The Secretary of State only has the authority to make foreign policy on the President's behalf. Bush never signed off on this.
Yeah I’m sure fucking *James Baker* went rogue in order to help Russia. The guy who grew up in Texas, ran BOTH of HW’s presidential campaigns, and served multiple neocon administrations, he was just making this shit up as he went. Come the fuck on man.
He didn't get to make deals that the President did not approve. You just cherry picked a story that made it sound like you were right. It doesn't matter what other neocon administrations Baker served. He was working for HW Bush and he was negotiating with Gorbachev.
Those are two separate points, but if we for a moment ignore the first issue, would negotiations we made with the Weimar Republic be binding on our relations with Hitler?
It absolutely matters.
“Binding” doesn’t fucking matter. Did the Treaty of Versailles become a myth when Weimar was formed? Or did the German grievances against it cease to exist when Hitler seized power? Hardly.
The fact is we went back on our diplomatic assurances the second we felt like we could get away with it, as we always do. A student of history would not be aghast when confronted with this fact.
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27647392 - 02/05/22 06:29 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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How did James Baker get to make foreign policy that HW Bush didn't go along with?
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#27647543 - 02/05/22 08:03 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Who says HW didn’t go along with it
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27647857 - 02/06/22 03:02 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27648026 - 02/06/22 08:41 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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New developments in IMMINENT RUSSIAN INVASION:
It will happen between today and never.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27648244 - 02/06/22 12:15 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I loved how we simultaneously accused Russia of "being about to release" a fake video with crisis actors (which may or may not be true), while we announced our strike on ISIS in Syria. The CNN announcer had to stop himself in mid sentence after saying we killed the guy and back track to say he killed himself, his family, and others, in a suicide bombing, while we were attacking him. That could even be true, but media coverage has not had this cold war tone since the cold war.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27648272 - 02/06/22 12:37 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Trying to anticipate Putin and regain control of the narrative, before the war hawks start it up.
I am certain that Biden, his cabinet, Putin, Zelensky, and his cabinet all know that Russia is not about to invade. But this is not a decision that happens in a vacuum. Since this is politics, the choices come down more to general vibe than to correct action. I think the biggest risk is that some dude in Putin's government doesn't quite grasp the geopolitics of destabilizing the Ukraine through threats of military action, runs their mouth, and manages to get enough of the population thinking war is the correct choice of action that Putin is forced to start one. After all, Russian society has been militarizing lately.
That's also the problem of a strongman government. The strongest rules. That means that the guy at the top, as Trump said, must "always be the smartest person in the room". Which necessitates having stupid underlings. A smart underling might make a power play.
We talk about leaders as individual actors, but we must remember that they are not. They have to worry about public sentiment. Sometimes, the general public will demand that the leader makes a bad call, and they are forced to either do the wrong thing or pay a political price.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27648276 - 02/06/22 12:38 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wonder when the gas tap will get turned off and on, because that's what friendly governments do.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27648281 - 02/06/22 12:41 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Russian gas has always been a political play in Europe.
Thing is, Russia can't just turn the gas off forever without wounding one of the biggest export markets in the country.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27648285 - 02/06/22 12:46 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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It will be a technical problem, it'll be in the contract somewhere.
Did you see that dick make out like he was asleep when Ukraine walked into the Winter Games? Pathetic.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27648291 - 02/06/22 12:54 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I thought they had a shit ton of money squirreled away and aren't too worried about sanctions or loosing any gas revenue.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27648298 - 02/06/22 12:58 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Again, then we run into the public perception aspect of politics. Putin likely has a shitton of money squirreled away. What about the gas workers that live in the West?
China would likely be willing to buy the extra capacity, but then you need to get it there.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27648321 - 02/06/22 01:20 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here's a scenario.
That gas pipeline mysteriously blows up but luckily there's that spare one sitting there ready to go.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27648514 - 02/06/22 04:28 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Might not be the most unreasonable scenario. Definitely more reasonable than an invasion.
Who would that scenario help?
Who could be blamed for the explosion?
Where does the explosion happen?
Any sort of violence is destabilizing, so it helps whoever is trying to use chaos for their own means. This would be Putin. Especially if there is a very obvious piece of evidence showing that it is an anti-Russian attack, but if it's a Ukrainian nationalist attack, then this kind of complicates one possible method of forcing Ukraine into the Russian sphere of influence. If this explosion happens near the Russian border, then it's going to look like the attack was meant to hurt Russia, but it would also hurt European energy. Of course, this winter doesn't seem to be nearly as cold as, for example, last year, and BoJo is already taking a bit of a fall with UK energy prices. It would be hard to use a destroyed pipeline as leverage this particular year. Of course, the inflation rhetoric out of the US primarily blames Biden for raising the prices of gas, even though the prices of gas are very low. This might be able to manufacture an inflationary crisis, while further attacking the entire concept of liberal government where people get a say in their future, since that is now closely tied to the democratic party. I guess that depoends on your definition of "liberal", because some definitions of liberal have been...fairly jesus-y lately.
I think the scenario you proposed is exactly what the US recently referred to as a possible false flag scenario goading the US into war.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27648837 - 02/06/22 08:27 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yep, with construction finished on the Nord Stream 2 pipeline the timing is pretty convenient. If the existing pipeline shits itself that would ensure the new pipeline is brought into service immediately circumventing any leverage from the U.S. as well as cutting revenue to the Ukraine at the same time. No need for an invasion like Putin keeps blabbing on about. Just a guess though.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27648913 - 02/06/22 09:34 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Destabilizing Ukraine would probably piss off other parts of Europe, which limits the potential customer base. Especially since Biden indicated a willingness to ship LNG over.
Germany would definitely stand to benefit. Merkel was good at putting Germany in a position that things just turn out extremely well for Germany. I wonder if the new guy will maintain that.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27649105 - 02/07/22 03:52 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think the U.S. is at maximum capacity with their LNG export.
When the tap was turned off in 2008? I'm pretty sure the number of LNG port facilities in the EU increased.
Those things take years to construct. Like you said earlier China would buy the gas but getting there is the problem. I think China would happily end our(Aus) LNG contracts if it could find another supplier.
I'd guess people a lot smarter than me have played things forward but the more I think about that pipeline having a misadventure it seems to make sense.
The U.S. isn't the only government capable of stupid shit.
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27649218 - 02/07/22 07:22 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I dunno if I'm willing to buy such a permanent misadventure.
However, having additional capacity going outside of the Ukrainian borders does allow Russia to more specifically fuck with Ukraine, while shipping gas to the rest of Europe through Germany.
Blowing up a pipeline removes it from the board, which reduces chaos down the line.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27649677 - 02/07/22 03:43 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not necessarily a major catastrophe. Just enough of a calamity to bring Nord Stream II into service… repair the fault… job done.
I’m just speculating, but I’d be willing to take a bet on a pipeline failure before summer IF Nord Stream II isn’t given final approval to operate by then. Just to put my money where my big mouth is, and to be honest I’d be happy to loose and see this latest drama fizzle out.
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27649927 - 02/07/22 07:11 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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$50 U.S. towards one of the Shroomery’s charitable endeavours if anyone is interested.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27650546 - 02/08/22 08:02 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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While I agree with your thinking, it seems like more of a plan B for me. Short term goal sounds like using the threat of invasion to force Nord Stream 2 through, and then using the ability to bypass Ukrainian pipelines to draw Ukraine back into the Russian sphere of influence.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27651040 - 02/08/22 02:30 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Maybe things will be a little clearer after Olaf Scholz has a chat with Putin next week... he better keep an eye on his underpants while he's there.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27651125 - 02/08/22 04:04 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Eh, Germany is the cornerstone of Europe, economically and to an extent culturally. Plus, Germany stands to benefit quite a bit from the new pipeline.
I think Scholz is going to have a much more difficult time negotiating with Biden.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27651285 - 02/08/22 06:24 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes I guess so. This puts Scholz in an awkward position. If he comes away with a de escalation in troop numbers of sorts it makes the U.S. claims that Germany is in ‘lock step’ irrelevant.
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27651311 - 02/08/22 06:40 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Merkel picked a good time to step out, too.
Scholz is definitely in an awkward position, but this, once again, comes down to political will. Personally, I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with Nord Stream 2. I also don't think that Putin wants to start a war, and Biden I'm sure could do without the extra headache. Ukraine is...well, they're an eastern European backwater. They don't really get to make their own way, their future lies within the EU or Russia. They could try to pull an Egypt and play both sides, but that probably will not work out for them.
Ideally, Ukraine would take the opportunity to push for renewables. That would solve a lot of their own problems, as well as give a good amount of international prestige.
The biggest risk are, once again, the war hawks on either side. Putin's almost certainly got a flunky or two itching to attack, and a cursory glance at reddit shows a lot of (surface level) support for another war.
Scholz should do nothing. He sent a token force of 350 soldiers, and he should just sit down and shut his mouth. If he just makes vaguely positive yet noncommital noises whenever Biden or Putin speak, he's gonna come out on top. Most Germans support the pipeline (for obvious reasons). Let's see if he can stand up to international pressure.
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27651329 - 02/08/22 06:48 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes the main problem with that pipeline seems to be emanating from the U.S. government
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Kryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27651386 - 02/08/22 07:29 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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And Ukraine. The pipeline threatens one of the few things keeping Ukraine relevant: the ability to fuck with the EU gas supply.
The US, of course, never likes it when a customer finds a better dealer.
With any luck, the French Tokamak will make this point moot by 2025. Edit: shit, apparently it's 2035, now. Well, China should get one going before then.
Edited by Kryptos (02/08/22 07:33 PM)
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ApexIntelligence20
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27654231 - 02/10/22 07:05 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, so do Jews target blacks with Rap music, designed to create drug dealers.
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Brian Jones
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Jews are frequently viewed as dominating the movie business, not music. Matisyahu is an Orthodox Jewish rapper, but more of a positive message.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27656472 - 02/12/22 02:08 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've got CNN on in the background, and just heard that 'Kiev' is pronounced with one syllable. Never knew that.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Asante
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27658450 - 02/14/22 10:07 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Like kief?
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Asante]
#27659402 - 02/15/22 06:58 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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What they're saying is that Keev is the Ukrainian pronunciation and the two syllable Kiev is the Russian one. But now that I've been made aware of this there seems to be a certain nuance with the way they say it, that isn't exactly translatable to Americans. Kinda of the way we can't pronounce Sartre the way the French do. I can't remember what part of Eastern Europe you're from, but your take on this is probably more accurate than mine.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27659879 - 02/15/22 12:10 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Russian Prime Minister says Moscow is willing to negotiate to avert crisis
...... what a fucking joke.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#27660120 - 02/15/22 03:38 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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There never was a crisis though.
Biden could say Russia is about to send special force unicorns into Kiev, and when it doesn’t happen the media will congratulate Biden for stopping the Putin unicorns.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27660401 - 02/15/22 07:11 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: There never was a crisis though.
I know, that's why it's such an obnoxious load of horse shit, from both sides, particularly from Russia for being such a belligerent pig of a government
as well also from the U.S. and the U.K. governments in using the media to announce the 'Russian Invasion' to somehow thwart Russia's 'plans'.
It's a fucking joke but I aint laughin.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
#27660889 - 02/16/22 05:54 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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It reminds me of Krushchev sending nuclear missiles to Cuba so he could withdraw them in return for concessions.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27660955 - 02/16/22 07:15 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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He moved them there because it was the only way to get the US to remove missiles from Turkey. Being strategic with their nuclear arsenal was the only reason the Soviets lasted as long as they did.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27660991 - 02/16/22 07:57 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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The timeline is right. I always was taught that Krushchev removed the missiles to get JFK's pledge that we would never invade Cuba. Maybe Krushchev got two for one.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#27662312 - 02/17/22 08:56 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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But JFK did invade Cuba lol
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27662517 - 02/17/22 11:34 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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LOL? You have your timeline mixed up.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#27662547 - 02/17/22 12:02 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Of course the bay of pigs was before the missile crisis, I’m just pointing out when and where the world is supposed to take the US at its word.
Promising not to invade Cuba? Absolutely. Promising not to expand NATO? Absolutely not.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27662561 - 02/17/22 12:19 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think we already flogged a dead horse with who did and who didn't promise not to expand NATO.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27670876 - 02/23/22 08:42 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey everyone, I'm back to see what the discussion is about Ukraine.
Though I haven't gotten there yet (hopefully I will soon if someone's started something on it), I thought I'd respond to the posts I'm reading.
Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: We created NATO on the pretext that
1) it was a bulwark against Soviet expansion 2) we would ourselves not expand NATO
The first pretext doesn’t exist anymore, and we broke the second one almost immediately.
I remember the first one. I second one is highly debatable.
No, The Ecstatic is correct about the second one. Der Spiegel just released evidence of this.
If you can't read Der Spiegel, RT summarized it here.
Edit: Yes, I realize it wasn't a written promise, but a verbal promise nonetheless. Russia learned its lesson that it can't trust the U.S.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/23/22 09:11 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27670908 - 02/23/22 09:06 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: It reminds me of Krushchev sending nuclear missiles to Cuba so he could withdraw them in return for concessions.
Khrushchev sent nuclear missiles to Cuba in response to the US sending them near Russia's border in Turkey.
Edit: Sorry, I just saw that The Ecstatic beat me to it.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/23/22 09:10 PM)
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ModularMind
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Brian Jones
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said: It reminds me of Krushchev sending nuclear missiles to Cuba so he could withdraw them in return for concessions.
Khrushchev sent nuclear missiles to Cuba in response to the US sending them near Russia's border in Turkey.
Edit: Sorry, I just saw that The Ecstatic beat me to it.
https://janetpanic.com/why-did-nikita-khrushchev-want-president-kennedy-to-remove-missiles-from-turkey/#:~:text=A%20Deal%20Ends%20the%20Standoff%20During%20t
I was willing to accept The Ecstatic's explanation that removing missiles from Turkey was part of the explanation, but it was explained for decades as an action to get JFK to pledge not to invade Cuba. You have shown no evidence that I'm wrong. This source supports what I said. "Cuba was saved from U.S. invasion, which was always Moscow's principal strategic goal".
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27672353 - 02/24/22 09:46 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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And you have shown no evidence that Russia would have put its missiles in Cuba if the US hadn't put its missiles in Turkey first.
Of course, I agree with you that Khrushchev withdrew the missiles in return for concessions that included Cuban non-aggression.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Brian Jones
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That's fine except nobody was arguing about what you said in the first sentence, so there was no motive to supply evidence. When The Ecstatic mentioned the missiles in Turkey I responded that the timeline made sense for his argument and maybe Kruschev achieved two objectives.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Brian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27672658 - 02/25/22 06:01 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: What they're saying is that Keev is the Ukrainian pronunciation and the two syllable Kiev is the Russian one. But now that I've been made aware of this there seems to be a certain nuance with the way they say it, that isn't exactly translatable to Americans. Kinda of the way we can't pronounce Sartre the way the French do. I can't remember what part of Eastern Europe you're from, but your take on this is probably more accurate than mine.
LOL sorry, I just realized I was talking to you and not Kryptos. He's from Eastern Europe.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
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Registered: 11/01/14
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
#27672848 - 02/25/22 09:55 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't have much good input on pronunciation. I can speak Russian to someone that speaks Ukrainian and we can have a conversation without knowing the others' language.
To me, Ukrainian sounds like bastardized Russian with the occasional mispronunciation.
The Russian pronunciation of Kiev is two syllables, Ki-yef. The fact that the spelling has become Kyiv in a lot of English publications makes me think the true Ukrainian pronunciation is closer to Keev, or maybe Kyeev, in one syllable.
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Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
#27672859 - 02/25/22 10:04 AM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, I think it comes down to people speaking different languages, particularly their native language, do things with their mouth and tongue that other people can't exactly duplicate the sound of even when they try to say it like the native speaker. Lately I've been reading Keev and Kyeev to try to phoeneticize it for us.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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