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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27643679 - 02/03/22 10:11 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe I’m the only one here with a memory that extends beyond a rolling 18 month period, but we are the ones who originally overthrew the Ukrainian government, creating a power vacuum that allowed ethnic Russians to seize parts of the country, spiraling into not civil war.

If Russia overthrew the Mexican government and sent the nation into a civil war on our border, and then we responded by trying to shore up political support in Mexico, would you say the US was ratcheting up tensions? Should we just allow a geopolitical enemy to set up shop on our border? No of course not. But when Russia does it, it’s some ghastly evil. We do the same shit with China and Taiwan.

And yet when Saudi genocides their neighbors to the south in Yemen, everything is kosher. You see, when our allies do something 100x worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine, somehow nobody gives a shit. That’s propaganda for you.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27643685 - 02/03/22 10:14 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The Secretary of State only has the authority to make foreign policy on the President's behalf. Bush never signed off on this.




Yeah I’m sure fucking *James Baker* went rogue in order to help Russia. The guy who grew up in Texas, ran BOTH of HW’s presidential campaigns, and served multiple neocon administrations, he was just making this shit up as he went. Come the fuck on man.


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27643734 - 02/03/22 10:44 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I got downvoted into oblivion on reddit for attempting to explain that. I got a million replies advocating for more US weapons and greater NATO influence in the Ukraine. Thanks, Obama.

On NPR today they had some US representative on to talk about Yemen. The best part was that he said his interest is in protecting something like 60 thousand Americans in Saudi Arabia and that Iran is actively attacking the Saudi's, so it is American lives at risk. As if those Americans aren't allowed to come home.

:huxleyfacepalm:


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: christopera] * 1
    #27643877 - 02/03/22 12:06 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

The US could be a case study in "when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27644032 - 02/03/22 02:14 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Maybe I’m the only one here with a memory that extends beyond a rolling 18 month period, but we are the ones who originally overthrew the Ukrainian government, creating a power vacuum that allowed ethnic Russians to seize parts of the country, spiraling into not civil war.

If Russia overthrew the Mexican government and sent the nation into a civil war on our border, and then we responded by trying to shore up political support in Mexico, would you say the US was ratcheting up tensions? Should we just allow a geopolitical enemy to set up shop on our border? No of course not. But when Russia does it, it’s some ghastly evil. We do the same shit with China and Taiwan.

And yet when Saudi genocides their neighbors to the south in Yemen, everything is kosher. You see, when our allies do something 100x worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine, somehow nobody gives a shit. That’s propaganda for you.




Good explanation :thumbup:
I'd just make the point that negotiation rather than sabre rattling is the way forward, lame I know, but .

Also, what other options does Ukraine have? Join NATO, rejoin Russia or limp along on it's own. The economy is a basket case.

Also the idea that NATO forces are ever going to step one inch into Russia just isn't going to happen, ever. If it does ever happen it's game over so the threat is effectively zero.

That's some decent propaganda as well from Russia.

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InvisibleBlack Cat
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27644083 - 02/03/22 02:47 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

The USA is in the process of slitting it’s own throat and crumbling from internal turmoil and corruption. Russia is the least of its problems.

I love how Russia is still supposedly the evil aggressor even after the USA spent the latter half of the 20th century destroying the USSR through propaganda, proxy wars, constant military threats, and economic sanctions.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27644538 - 02/03/22 08:19 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The Secretary of State only has the authority to make foreign policy on the President's behalf. Bush never signed off on this.




Yeah I’m sure fucking *James Baker* went rogue in order to help Russia. The guy who grew up in Texas, ran BOTH of HW’s presidential campaigns, and served multiple neocon administrations, he was just making this shit up as he went. Come the fuck on man.




He didn't get to make deals that the President did not approve. You just cherry picked a story that made it sound like you were right.
It doesn't matter what other neocon administrations Baker served. He was working for HW Bush and he was negotiating with Gorbachev.

Those are two separate points, but if we for a moment ignore the first issue, would negotiations we made with the Weimar Republic be binding on our relations with Hitler?


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: christopera]
    #27646670 - 02/05/22 07:44 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
I got downvoted into oblivion on reddit for attempting to explain that. I got a million replies advocating for more US weapons and greater NATO influence in the Ukraine. Thanks, Obama.

On NPR today they had some US representative on to talk about Yemen. The best part was that he said his interest is in protecting something like 60 thousand Americans in Saudi Arabia and that Iran is actively attacking the Saudi's, so it is American lives at risk. As if those Americans aren't allowed to come home.

:huxleyfacepalm:




Reddit is hopeless.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 34,046
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27646671 - 02/05/22 07:48 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The Secretary of State only has the authority to make foreign policy on the President's behalf. Bush never signed off on this.




Yeah I’m sure fucking *James Baker* went rogue in order to help Russia. The guy who grew up in Texas, ran BOTH of HW’s presidential campaigns, and served multiple neocon administrations, he was just making this shit up as he went. Come the fuck on man.




He didn't get to make deals that the President did not approve. You just cherry picked a story that made it sound like you were right.
It doesn't matter what other neocon administrations Baker served. He was working for HW Bush and he was negotiating with Gorbachev.

Those are two separate points, but if we for a moment ignore the first issue, would negotiations we made with the Weimar Republic be binding on our relations with Hitler?




It absolutely matters.

“Binding” doesn’t fucking matter. Did the Treaty of Versailles become a myth when Weimar was formed? Or did the German grievances against it cease to exist when Hitler seized power? Hardly.

The fact is we went back on our diplomatic assurances the second we felt like we could get away with it, as we always do. A student of history would not be aghast when confronted with this fact.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27647392 - 02/05/22 06:29 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

How did James Baker get to make foreign policy that HW Bush didn't go along with?


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 34,046
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27647543 - 02/05/22 08:03 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Who says HW didn’t go along with it


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27647857 - 02/06/22 03:02 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 34,046
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27648026 - 02/06/22 08:41 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

New developments in IMMINENT RUSSIAN INVASION:

It will happen between today and never.



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27648244 - 02/06/22 12:15 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I loved how we simultaneously accused Russia of "being about to release" a fake video with crisis actors (which may or may not be true), while we announced our strike on ISIS in Syria. The CNN announcer had to stop himself in mid sentence after saying we killed the guy and back track to say he killed himself, his family, and others, in a suicide bombing, while we were attacking him. That could even be true, but media coverage has not had this cold war tone since the cold war.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27648272 - 02/06/22 12:37 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Trying to anticipate Putin and regain control of the narrative, before the war hawks start it up.

I am certain that Biden, his cabinet, Putin, Zelensky, and his cabinet all know that Russia is not about to invade. But this is not a decision that happens in a vacuum. Since this is politics, the choices come down more to general vibe than to correct action. I think the biggest risk is that some dude in Putin's government doesn't quite grasp the geopolitics of destabilizing the Ukraine through threats of military action, runs their mouth, and manages to get enough of the population thinking war is the correct choice of action that Putin is forced to start one. After all, Russian society has been militarizing lately.

That's also the problem of a strongman government. The strongest rules. That means that the guy at the top, as Trump said, must "always be the smartest person in the room". Which necessitates having stupid underlings. A smart underling might make a power play.

We talk about leaders as individual actors, but we must remember that they are not. They have to worry about public sentiment. Sometimes, the general public will demand that the leader makes a bad call, and they are forced to either do the wrong thing or pay a political price.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27648276 - 02/06/22 12:38 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I wonder when the gas tap will get turned off and on, because that's what friendly governments do.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27648281 - 02/06/22 12:41 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Russian gas has always been a political play in Europe.

Thing is, Russia can't just turn the gas off forever without wounding one of the biggest export markets in the country.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Kryptos]
    #27648285 - 02/06/22 12:46 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

It will be a technical problem, it'll be in the contract somewhere.

Did you see that dick make out like he was asleep when Ukraine walked into the Winter Games? Pathetic.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27648291 - 02/06/22 12:54 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I thought they had a shit ton of money squirreled away and aren't too worried about sanctions or loosing any gas revenue.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Warfare to disrupt society forthem [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27648298 - 02/06/22 12:58 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Again, then we run into the public perception aspect of politics. Putin likely has a shitton of money squirreled away. What about the gas workers that live in the West?

China would likely be willing to buy the extra capacity, but then you need to get it there.

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