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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Regis]
#27590427 - 12/22/21 08:58 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Yeah, you're right, i lost track of the numbers while posting lol.
Im drinking coffee in my old man pj'
; )
Morning Y'all lol.
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Hindsight
Mad Scientist


Registered: 01/24/21
Posts: 2,706
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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So p9hu7, regardless of any misreading, I do believe I may have learned something new from what you said but I want to confirm. In my example, I had the spawn ratio being the same. But let's change the scenario so it is different. You are saying that a tub with 1 quart of spawn and 2 quarts of coir will produce less than the same tub with 1 quart of spawn and 4 quarts of coir, due to the extra water provided by the additional coir, correct? If so, it seems like you have found that 1:6 is the optimal ratio, and you get diminishing returns beyond that?
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kreg
Shoebox Enthusiast+

Registered: 09/14/21
Posts: 2,434
Loc: sloosination🏳
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Hindsight]
#27590437 - 12/22/21 09:09 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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even if its the same ratio, monos are a larger size ratio, more depth, and width per length. They are 4:3 where shorboxes are 16:9 his example makes sense although the numbers are confusing. Regardless of ratio, monos require more spawn even if you were doing same length and width canopy in shoeboxes because of the depth you'd need more. Im stoned and still very wired from my coffee lets move on! lol although i am very curious about the 1:6 ratio part very surprising. I was ready to go inverse and try spawning a tub with very little sub!
Edited by kreg (12/22/21 09:12 AM)
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Hindsight] 1
#27590454 - 12/22/21 09:28 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Yeah, despite the basic math fail the more water you have the greater potential for a heavier flush. This is all genetic though, basic principles still apply. If you have dirty spawn or have a shit culture nothing you do with your sub will change that much, but if you have everything else in order than yes.
The change needs to be an increase in substrate, not a reduction of spawn.
If you're using 650gr coir and 4 quarts of spawn, for instance, you don't get more mushrooms by reducing the amount of spawn while maintaining the same amount of water in the substrate, the water reservoir hasn't changed, but this scenario allows for you to get more out of your spawn by not having to use as much for that recipe while maintaining the same results, you get a similar harvest while being conservative with your spawn. You get more bang for your buck.
Now if you increase the reservoir from:
650gr c/v 4 liters of water 4 quarts spawn
to
900gr c/v 5 liters of water 4 quarts spawn
you've just increased the amount of water by 1k grams, while maintaining the same baseline of supplementation. This is where you can take advantage of an efficient culture.
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Regis
Haben wir noch pepps?

Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 274
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 21 days, 23 hours
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one more reason to be absolutly anal about clean spawn. dont want to waste a fuckload of coir.
you still use 4 quarts grain with 1:6?
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Regis] 1
#27590471 - 12/22/21 09:40 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Yup, I think that 4 quarts is the baseline for a full size mono. I think that you'll get diminishing returns if you start adding additional mount of c/v with less spawn than that, plus it would take forever to colonize.
If using a standard 650g recipe you can probably get away with less than 4 quarts, but I think that 4 quarts is a good standard for bulk.
If reducing the amount of spawn to less than 4 quarts I would recommend using smaller sized tubs like sweater box mini monos or shoeboxes. I don't have data on that because I haven't directly tested it, this seems reasonable to me but I'd be interested to see the results with a full mono with a standard c/v recipe but with less than 4 quarts of spawn.
With a shoebox its different though, 1:6 though it may seem like a lot of sub for only 1 qt of spawn, but it's still only a shoebox worth of sub, it takes a bit longer to colonize but it doesn't harm the performance.
So yes, I've found that a 1:6 spawn to sub ratio works great for shoeboxes, and great for my 66qt monos using 4qts/lbs of spawn as a baseline, combined with compression and leveling with a trowel, and a thick compressed top layer.
This has changed my cult game. I should mention that its not a true 1:6 because the quart measurement used to measure my c/v is a full, actual quart. Not myco quarts which is only 3 cups.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (12/22/21 10:15 AM)
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Wes377
OU812



Registered: 09/13/21
Posts: 160
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 14 hours
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Following this....Should field capacity be changed when going from a monotub to growing in shoeboxes? Is there some tweeking?
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Wes377]
#27590516 - 12/22/21 10:25 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Field capacity doesn't change, this is the reason for increasing the volume of c/v along with the increased h20, if you increase h20 while maintaining the same amount of c/v you'll exceed field capacity and make your tub sloppy.
The only reason we use coir/verm is to hold water in reserve for fruits, so as water increases so does the necessity for sub to hold it effectively.
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kreg
Shoebox Enthusiast+

Registered: 09/14/21
Posts: 2,434
Loc: sloosination🏳
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i just haven't been using verm recently, mostly just haven't seemed to need it + keep forgetting I even have it.
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: kreg]
#27590549 - 12/22/21 10:56 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Whats your coirb recipe without verm?
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micelio
Song of Silence


Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 1,547
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: kreg] 1
#27590557 - 12/22/21 11:02 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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I doing a test now using two different size bags.
All bags are receiving 200 grams of spawn.
I'm using unicorn large grow bags and one gallon Ziploc.
The unicorn bags are receiving 800 grams hydrated coir/verm.
The one gallon Ziplocs are receiving 400 grams hydrated coir/verm.
I'm in the middle of harvesting and loosing some bags to trich, so I don't have an accurate average of wet weight.
It appears that the one gallon Ziplocs are producing much smaller fruit at about 150 grams wet per bag.
The unicorn bags are all producing over 250 grams wet, 326 gram bag was the highest. all large fruit.
In this test I started with 50 one gallon Ziplocs and 25 Unicorn bags.. (I'm guessing a little on the bag count since this test was for me to get a rough idea on cutting back on spawn.)
This test showed me just what happens when you cut back on spawn ratio.
More spawn Is not necessarily better.
I was adding 400 grams spawn to my Unicorn bags with 800 grams c/v and averaging a little over 200 grams wet.
So I can see now by using half the spawn I'm getting much much higher yield and bigger fruit..
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kreg
Shoebox Enthusiast+

Registered: 09/14/21
Posts: 2,434
Loc: sloosination🏳
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like 1:1 coir spawn im really new into things though. Most of my shoeboxes put out weird canopies
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: kreg]
#27590571 - 12/22/21 11:11 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Its the amount of water that matter, in grams when compared to harvest weight in wet grams. Coir weight is irrelevant.
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Hindsight
Mad Scientist


Registered: 01/24/21
Posts: 2,706
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Quote:
p9hu7 said: Whats your coirb recipe without verm?
I noticed your substrate formula on your top-layer thread. Any reason you add verm to the coir? I feel like coir holds water just as well as verm, but I've never done any tests nor side-by-side comparisons of tubs with 100% coir, vs adding some verm in there. Looks like you are doing 1 part verm to 3 parts coir. Just curious if you've done any tests that prove having verm in there is better than coir alone.
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MysticMycologist
Dirt Sherpa



Registered: 10/14/21
Posts: 1,755
Loc: seeking samadhi
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Hindsight]
#27590627 - 12/22/21 12:00 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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I feel like verm actually hold more water. When I hydrate my coir I do it on the wet side, and I keep adding dry verm until it is at the proper field capacity.
-------------------- Two eyes to look, One eye to see.
Prying open my third eye

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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Hindsight] 2
#27590632 - 12/22/21 12:02 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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You can use straight coir but I prefer using verm to add texture and to increase the amount of holding power that my coir has without having to add more coir.
I'm not sure if one holds more than the other pound for pound, er whatever.
So let's say that you're running the standard recipe but without verm:
650gr coir
3 quarts verm 4 quarts h20.
When you remove the verm but maintain the same amount of water you will have to add more coir to make up for the loss.
650gr of coir can only hold say 2 quarts of h20 before it exceeds field capacity, so either way you'll need to add more materials, in this case it will be more coir if you're not using verm.
I prefer the addition of verm to add texture and so that I'm not using soo much coir, which I am already using quite a bit of.
I judge my tubs based on a number of criteria but one of the most imortant/fundamental criterion is a cultures ability to move water into the fruits, I learned this hack from pasty.
So by having a known weight of starting water I can compare to the first flush wet weight of my tub:
My starting weight is 5000 grams of water If my harvest is on average 40% (2k gr) of that initial weight or greater, this is good;
If it's 50% (2500 gr) or greater this is great;
70% (3500 gr)is excellent.
This is how I track my cultures, but it is only 1 kind of efficiency.
Others are:
The cultures ability to efficiently utilize the available fruiting suurface;
Clustering;
Potency.
So the starting water weight is crucial because this is what ultimately determines The upper limit of your harvest. The weight of the c/v or just coir is simply incidental, it is a function of its ability to effectively hold water. More water will mean you must increase the thing that holds it, this is why I don't use the BE calculation for cubes, I don't think that it applies due to the dry weight of coir having no real affect on anything except it's ability to hold water.
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bakedbeings
orbiter of truth


Registered: 09/01/20
Posts: 4,563
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idk which holds more water but straight coir likes to clump up so i throw a handful of verm in there to keep things loose
-------------------- Confused? Well now you can!
HHG - cheapest way to start - how i roll
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Verm is definitely a great addition.
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Hindsight
Mad Scientist


Registered: 01/24/21
Posts: 2,706
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Nice, well I have a massive bag of coarse verm I have only been using in my pan substrates so will try adding it to coir for my cube subs too and see if I notice any difference.
Did you see Pasty was running an experiment to see if coir actually provides any nutrients to mycelium? https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27554945/fpart/1/vc/1
I've been waiting for the results of that.
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Hindsight]
#27590656 - 12/22/21 12:26 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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I have not. I'll take a look, thanks.
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