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kreg
Shoebox Enthusiast+

Registered: 09/14/21
Posts: 2,434
Loc: sloosination🏳
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Shoeboxes vs Monos
#27590273 - 12/22/21 06:15 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Im sure it's been brought up before but I'd like to bring it up again for newer folk to chime in and older folk to vouch for if their opinions have changed. SHOEBOXES VS MONOS. Lets talk pros and cons and workflow efficiency and such. Ive just now got to where I have more spawn than I need, I have 7 live containers, my fridge is full, and I've nocced every jar I have. I haven't really even had the chance to do monos before due to all the dumb noob cult problems i had starting out but I've always felt shoeboxes were better. My logic is that shoeboxes require less space and spawn, but they can put out the same canopies as monos. Although you sacrifice a little height in spawn depth, you can have the space of a mono in stacked shoeboxes. Furthermore using less spawn there's less loss if there is any contamination. Even if all your spawn is bacterial youre not shitting an entire bed of live fruit all at once, just little small beds one at a time. If you prefer monos please please share a little info on what type of tub you use or any modifications you do to any existing teks (and here too pls Mono ppls)
Edited by kreg (01/29/22 07:20 PM)
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Hindsight
Mad Scientist


Registered: 01/24/21
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: kreg] 1
#27590314 - 12/22/21 07:04 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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The amount of fruit you get is a function of the amount of spawn you use. For example, all things being equal other than tub size, if you mix 1 quart of grain spawn to 2 quarts of coir in a shoebox, and then you you mix 4 quarts of grain to 8 quarts of coir in a larger monotub, you will get 4x the fruit weight in the larger monotub because you used 4x the grain.
Some say that a larger tub puts out larger/more fruit due to the larger cake size being more conducive to that, but I don't think that's ever been proven.
Shoeboxes don't really take less horizontal space; if you want to grow X ounces of mushrooms, whether you do it in 6 shoeboxes or 1 big tub, it's about the same. Monotubs tend to be taller though, so you could stack shoeboxes and have more fruit per vertical foot.
I like shoeboxes for two reasons: 1. I don't lose a whole tub if I end up with a contamination issue 2. I don't grow on a large scale, I like to try a lot of different varieties, and I like to grow out as many cultures of a variety as I can in order to find the best phenotypes. Shoeboxes fit this best.
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Scrimshaw
Sponsored by Sterilite


Registered: 06/27/14
Posts: 793
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Hindsight] 1
#27590320 - 12/22/21 07:21 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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I do most of my grows in shoeboxes for the same reasons Hindsight outlined above.
In my experience, the pros for monotubs are less cleanup, more flexibility to dial in conditions, less maintenance if done right, and potentially more water to draw from given the greater sub depth. Cons are contam risk.
Just to play devils advocate though…if you’re utilizing G2G or wedges from the same plate into you jars…if one goes bad, aren’t they all likely to be bad anyway? So maybe the contam thing is slightly overblown for the monos.
9 times out of 10 I do shoeboxes so I can experiment with different varieties, hunt for clones, try new sub prep/surface conditions, etc.
I grow as a hobby only. Even if monos yielded more, I don’t really care since one grow is more than I would ever need anyway.
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Hindsight] 4
#27590327 - 12/22/21 07:39 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Hindsight said: The amount of fruit you get is a function of the amount of spawn you use. For example, all things being equal other than tub size, if you mix 1 quart of grain spawn to 2 quarts of coir in a shoebox, and then you you mix 4 quarts of grain to 8 quarts of coir in a larger monotub, you will get 4x the fruit weight in the larger monotub because you used 4x the grain.
Some say that a larger tub puts out larger/more fruit due to the larger cake size being more conducive to that, but I don't think that's ever been proven.
This is not the case, if more spawn = more fruit then 1:1 spawn ratio would be ideal, or additional supplementation would be measurably beneficial. Mushrooms are approximately 92% water, the reason why larger tubs put out larger fruits isn't due to the colonies access to grain, it's because there is a greater water reservoir to draw from. There is a minimum requirement for supplementation that's provided by the grain however it's not significant.
You said it yourself, 4 quarts of grain to 8 quarts of substrate is still 1:2 spawn ratio, the water reservoir is now four times what it was previously whereas the grain has only doubled.
RR used to have an example of the importance of water in a flush, he had 1 fruit growing from a tiny bit of coir that grew quite large because it was given access to a constant supply of water, he was illustrating the importance of misting as the flush was coming in, but if you can begin with this water already in the sub, misting then becomes unnecessary.
Increase the amount of water available to your mycelium and you will increase the harvest weight, reduce the amount of water and you will place a limitation on the potential of the culture.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (12/22/21 07:49 AM)
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kreg
Shoebox Enthusiast+

Registered: 09/14/21
Posts: 2,434
Loc: sloosination🏳
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thank you p9 you took the words right out of my head, you rock. I've seen the classic condensation tuning thread, but for someone like me who likes shoeboxes more I think my misting situation needs to be down first. I've been trying to only mist once or twice a day not to choke them out, recently I've been waiting til it looks like the surface coir is visibly dry and lighter then I mist til it's a little dark again. I've also been running with a group that's been giving me lots of blobhead mutants though so maybe that's still too much.
Edited by kreg (12/22/21 07:50 AM)
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: kreg]
#27590335 - 12/22/21 07:51 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Any time 
When considering the dry ingredients in any grow by weight, then compared to the water weight, the water represents a large percentage of not only the environment but makes up a significant amount of the organism itself.
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bakedbeings
orbiter of truth


Registered: 09/01/20
Posts: 4,563
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: kreg]
#27590338 - 12/22/21 07:54 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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maybe this is Bad, i guess ill find out by posting it, but i dont like spraying water all over my fruiting bodies mid-flush so in a situation where i feel they need more moisture ive taken to just pouring some water on the surface of the sub. it drinks it up pretty fast, havent had any issues thus far
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Pouring water onto the surface or bottom watering is a great way to beef up the flush, but ask yourself why you'd do this after that fact as apposed to adding that additional water to the sub to begin with?
Coir/verm can only hold soo much water before it gets sloppy, so account for the excess water required during the flush by increasing the cv to accommodate that water before spawning.
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Hindsight
Mad Scientist


Registered: 01/24/21
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I stand corrected!
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: kreg] 1
#27590357 - 12/22/21 08:09 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
kreg said: thank you p9 you took the words right out of my head, you rock. I've seen the classic condensation tuning thread, but for someone like me who likes shoeboxes more I think my misting situation needs to be down first. I've been trying to only mist once or twice a day not to choke them out, recently I've been waiting til it looks like the surface coir is visibly dry and lighter then I mist til it's a little dark again. I've also been running with a group that's been giving me lots of blobhead mutants though so maybe that's still too much.
Have you checked out my thread that covers these issues?
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27426583
By increasing the sub in your shoebox you will not need to mist, and by adding the thick compressed top layer you'll eliminate blobs.
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bakedbeings
orbiter of truth


Registered: 09/01/20
Posts: 4,563
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Quote:
p9hu7 said: Pouring water onto the surface or bottom watering is a great way to beef up the flush, but ask yourself why you'd do this after that fact as apposed to adding that additional water to the sub to begin with?
fair question. typically i only do this when my tubs are "done" to see if theyll cough up a few more fruits before succumbing to the little green monster. in other instances i might have more spawn than space so i end up doing something close to 1:1.5
at least i ditched the humidifier
-------------------- Confused? Well now you can!
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Regis
Haben wir noch pepps?

Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 274
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 21 days, 23 hours
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Quote:
p9hu7 said:
You said it yourself, 4 quarts of grain to 8 quarts of substrate is still 1:2 spawn ratio, the water reservoir is now four times what it was previously whereas the grain has only doubled.
How is the grain volume only doubled? There is 4 quarts grain and 8 quarts CV with 1:2.
So both increased four times.
Or do you change the ratio for monos?
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Regis]
#27590365 - 12/22/21 08:14 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Because 2x2=4, which is double, not 8 times ; )
But yes, my tubs are 1:6
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Regis
Haben wir noch pepps?

Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 274
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Hindsight uses 1 quart grain and 2 quarts coir for shoeboxes, and 4 quarts grain and 8 quarts coir for monos. Not 2 quarts grain and 2 quarts coir for shoeboxes.
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Regis
Haben wir noch pepps?

Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 274
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 21 days, 23 hours
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Regis]
#27590375 - 12/22/21 08:21 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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I will try 1:6 for the next grow. Always used 1:2 and was annoyed by the small fruits. Thanks for the tip
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 8,259
Loc: Canada
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Regis]
#27590382 - 12/22/21 08:25 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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1:2 @ 1 part grain to 2 parts coir, or 1 quart of spawn to 2 quarts of coir.
Now, 4 parts grain to 8 parts coir, yes?
The ratio remains the same, 1:2 but:
The difference between 1 part and two parts is what? It has doubled, yes? So two times as much grain. 4 quarts is twice as much as 2 quarts.
The coir has increased from 2 quarts coir to 8 quarts of coir in the example given in the post above.
Quote:
For example, all things being equal other than tub size, if you mix 1 quart of grain spawn to 2 quarts of coir in a shoebox, and then you you mix 4 quarts of grain to 8 quarts of coir in a larger monotub, you will get 4x the fruit weight in the larger monotub because you used 4x the grain
The difference between 2 quarts and 8 quarts is 4, 2x4=8. 8 quarts of sub is a 4 fold increase.
Twice as much grain, four times as much c/v.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (12/22/21 08:49 AM)
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Mr Piggy
Playing "queer pass"



Registered: 09/29/11
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Loc: bioilliminicent©️
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I honestly don't like shoeboxes over monos. It's just more to fuss with and their moisture levels have to be monitored. I've also never matched the output of a mono with a shoe box. With the big boi tub I just set it and forget it, which is my cult style. I also get much better second and third flushes from a mono because as P9 pointed out, moisture.
I'll be giving the 2.5 gal ziplocks a go here soon. Those definitely appear to have chunks of shoeboxes in their stool when it comes to output.
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Regis
Haben wir noch pepps?

Registered: 06/07/20
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Quote:
Hindsight said: For example, all things being equal other than tub size, if you mix 1 quart of grain spawn to 2 quarts of coir in a shoebox, and then you you mix 4 quarts of grain to 8 quarts of coir in a larger monotub...
Quote:
p9hu7 said: Now, 2 parts grain to 8 parts coir, yes?
No. 4 quarts grain to 8 quarts coir.
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
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Re: Shoeboxes vs Monos [Re: Regis] 1
#27590418 - 12/22/21 08:46 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Ah yes, i wrote the wrong number somehow, but 4 is not 4x as much as 2.
Nvm, im now going back over what was said. He said 1, not 2. My bad, you are correct.
I need to wake up before posting.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (12/22/21 08:57 AM)
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Regis
Haben wir noch pepps?

Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 274
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 21 days, 23 hours
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Edit: it's all good. Thought I was somehow missing something
Edited by Regis (12/22/21 08:58 AM)
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