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Rahz
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Rights or Privileges
#27589277 - 12/21/21 09:32 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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On the surface it seems simple. Rights are things that are afforded to everyone and can't be taken away. Privileges are things which are granted to a subset of the whole.
Yet a right is only a right when the leadership decides it's a right. Felons can't vote in many states yet some think voting is a right. Some will say health care is a human right, but then suggest those who aren't vaccinated should be denied health care.
I submit that there are no rights, only privileges.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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kreg
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: Rahz]
#27589283 - 12/21/21 09:42 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sup, I'm the police, I'm here to arrest you for speaking out of line. How dare you.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: Rahz]
#27589296 - 12/21/21 09:57 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: ... Some will say health care is a human right, but then suggest those who aren't vaccinated should be denied health care.
until they get their shot, which is essential health care, they are in fact resisting their own rights and need to be set straight on that.
it's not a fun task but it must be done.
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Rahz
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If a person "must" exercise a right, it's not a right. In any case, what you're describing is a privilege.
It's this kind of double speak that authoritarians use to deny privileges.
I suppose people are so used to being lied to from a very young age that it tends to go over their head.
If you want to coerce people into doing something, why not just admit it rather than speak of rights?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: Rahz]
#27589345 - 12/21/21 10:54 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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not really, the right to access medical privileges continues, the prerequisite for the medical service however has sequential, priortities of its own.
consider the right to education versus the privilege achieved of high grades.
anyone should be able to achieve high grades, but most do not. anyone can go to school, and most do exploit this right until they stop.
think of it also in terms of size.
any size fish has the right to the water it breathes, however the shark breathes much more water than the minnow.
we do not get the same quantity of the things to which our rights entitle us, but an appropriate measure should be afforded based on each case.
in the case of vaccine resisters during a plague (pandemic), the resistance is specifically extending the duration and the breadth of the hardship which the health services are supposed to allay.
Vaccine resisters are costing the health system millions of dollars by catching and spreading more plague (covid) than would otherwise be happening. As a result of this reassignment of health staff to covid, other medical treatments are not available to anyone.
Unfortunately there is not right to intelligence, so vaccine resistance endures. BTW, I typed in my browser https://www.foxnews.com/ and was astonished at the cohesively idiotic voices each headline conveyed.
I think there is a right to tell it true, and no one has a right to lie. Lieing is not a right it's a wrong.
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Rahz
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"right to access medical privileges"
You said it all right there lol.
Fish have no right or privilege to breathe unless the sharks decide they do. Can't very well breathe when you're being digested. 
"no one has a right to lie"
Freedom of speech unless it's not what you want to hear. And you know how the topic of truth get's treated here philosophically, as well as basic differences in beliefs in the social sphere.
This thread is intended to be a general discourse on the difference between a right and a privilege (there isn't one) rather than a discussion on what should or should not be a right because in reality there are no rights apart from privilege). Saying a right can be taken away is no different than saying a privilege can be taken away.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: Rahz] 1
#27589375 - 12/21/21 11:34 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think history shows us that most governments down through the ages have been mostly authoritarian, resembling nothing like modern parliamentary democracy. Presumably, it could go in the other direction (and seems to be in America): a move from more democratic forms to more autocratic forms.
So if rights can be taken away, or don't even exist in the first place, I agree with you: rights are only privileges, and historically, they are typically temporary ones.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: Rahz]
#27589423 - 12/21/21 12:21 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:... This thread is intended to be a general discourse on the difference between a right and a privilege (there isn't one) rather than a discussion on what should or should not be a right because in reality there are no rights apart from privilege). Saying a right can be taken away is no different than saying a privilege can be taken away.
put this way, I think we really have to sharpen privilege as well, and may end up re-establishing rights and losing privilege altogether.
why not observe the little perch engaged with the wealth of his environment, and indeed part of it, just as a baseline of existence, hazardous and glorious at the same time, but it is the inheritance of the life form, of each life form.
In a sense the baseline of life is the inheritance which sounds like being endowed with privilege(s) to immerse in the bounty and danger.
it is an inherited right, by right only of inheritance of life. no dispensation of privilege exists, and the bully fish (shark perhaps) is just an indescriminate danger, inherited with the rest.
Society is our conjured up waterworld, the bounty and scourge at the same time for us little fish. It is part of the flesh we have inherited.
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kreg
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: Rahz]
#27589447 - 12/21/21 12:37 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: If a person "must" exercise a right, it's not a right. In any case, what you're describing is a privilege.
It's this kind of double speak that authoritarians use to deny privileges.
Bless you I agree so much. There are countries that are begging to have the vaccine whatsoever, idk maybe its worldwide now but I think the US should just share ro those places that dont have it now since we have so many folk that dont even want it.
Edited by kreg (12/21/21 12:38 PM)
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Rahz
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Seems like double speak to me (re-establishing rights and losing privilege altogether), though I agree with some of what you said about the fish. Especially in light of your comments on access to medical help, I'm not sure how you can rationalize re-establishing rights and losing privilege altogether. Regarding the fish, it's hardly a right or privilege to breathe if it can be taken away at any moment. That seems to be applying human ideals to nature.
A person who speaks of rights (existing apart from privilege) is either blissfully ignorant, willfully ignorant (lying to themselves) or lying to others.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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kreg
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: kreg]
#27589451 - 12/21/21 12:41 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Do what thou wilt x Love is the law, love under will. stop being an offtopic pube, the weed forum is that way!
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kreg
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: kreg]
#27589452 - 12/21/21 12:43 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'd like to think that all humans have a right to oxygen. The right not to be raped or murdered, totally, because no one has the right to rape or murder anyway right
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redgreenvines
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: kreg]
#27589481 - 12/21/21 01:07 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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as part of the inheritance of the life form, the social task of betterment of the environment would include minimizing threats to the health and welfare of all members.
how each betterment is prioritized and managed is the function of government.
maybe rights are the set of all inheritances and all basic betterment's of society.
We have The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is a basic definition of those social "improvements" that are legally protected
Quote:
Equality rights are at the core of the Charter. They are intended to ensure that everyone is treated with the same respect, dignity and consideration (i.e. without discrimination), regardless of personal characteristics such as race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age, or mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, residency, marital status or citizenship.
this is a definite improvement over not being sure if you have the right to buy cookies when you are black, and or disabled, and or old, and or from Povungnituk.
you have that right, it is not a privilege.
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Rahz
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: kreg]
#27589512 - 12/21/21 01:40 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
kreg said: I'd like to think that all humans have a right to oxygen. The right not to be raped or murdered, totally, because no one has the right to rape or murder anyway right
Rights (privileges) are opinions.
When the Russian Mongol army invaded Germany there was much rape and murder. It's doubtful the field commanders or further leadership cared and seems reasonable that various people up the chain of command were fine with "raping those German bitches". More ancient (or less so) laws establishing the rights of harem owners basically condoned rape, along with marital ideology in other cultures (being married off and producing offspring wasn't a choice).
So while I agree with you that rape is bad and am willing to stand up against it (to the limited degree of my immediate surroundings and friends/family) that is simply my opinion. Nature is less specific about right and wrong in such matters.
Anyone who believes in capital punishment will disagree and suggest that oxygen is a privilege. Even for a person who doesn't believe in capital punishment, they are only advising their opinion. Even if they believe in God given rights, I would suggest it's still an opinion. Opinions are subject to change and not everyone agrees. Agreement is the essential component of a right/privilege.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: Rahz]
#27589568 - 12/21/21 02:37 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nature has no part of determining if rape is a crime.
We all know that it is a violation, by definition.
We do not need others to agree that violation is offensive, and if possible the source of violation has to be stopped.
That may involve capture of the violator to address compensation or it may involve correction of society so that it manages violation with more integrity.
There is work in this, it is not the lowest common denominator, violation is low and common.
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Rahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Quote:
We do not need others to agree that violation is offensive, and if possible the source of violation has to be stopped.
I'm a fan of the golden rule but not everyone agrees. As I noted, historically being offensive wasn't necessarily criminal.
And being offensive (outside the scope of the current topic) isn't necessarily criminal, though it appears some think it should be.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Posts: 37,530
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: Rahz]
#27589696 - 12/21/21 04:14 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
We do not need others to agree that violation is offensive, and if possible the source of violation has to be stopped.
I'm a fan of the golden rule but not everyone agrees. As I noted, historically being offensive wasn't necessarily criminal.
And being offensive (outside the scope of the current topic) isn't necessarily criminal, though it appears some think it should be.
the offence being rape specifically in the side convo
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laughingdog
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: Rahz] 1
#27589705 - 12/21/21 04:28 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: On the surface it seems simple. Rights are things that are afforded to everyone and can't be taken away. Privileges are things which are granted to a subset of the whole.
Yet a right is only a right when the leadership decides it's a right. Felons can't vote in many states yet some think voting is a right. Some will say health care is a human right, but then suggest those who aren't vaccinated should be denied health care.
I submit that there are no rights, only privileges.
. Doesn't the whole business depend on ideas of justice and fairness?
. Isn't nature rather indifferent? (Zebra and Lions, parasitic wasps laying eggs in caterpillars to eat them form the inside out, tornadoes, hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, and of course all sort of diseases, etc.). And less dramatically perhaps the random nature of genes we got, and the intelligence we got...or didn't get.
. So yes hunter gatherers know what is fair, and it helps keep their societies functioning. . But no, their society doesn't go beyond what is common sense, and necessary for survival, and most of us could not stand or bear to be in a situation with no real privacy, and almost total conformity.
. Which leads me think our Western notions, are based on a lot of ignored assumptions, and on technology that is actually very vulnerable. . I think 'rights' like 'free will' are convenient fictions, or myths, that work for us part of the time (if one can afford a good lawyer, and the judge just ate a delicious lunch, at a nice restaurant, with a pretty lady), but that at other times backfire.
Edited by laughingdog (12/21/21 04:31 PM)
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Rahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
We do not need others to agree that violation is offensive, and if possible the source of violation has to be stopped.
I'm a fan of the golden rule but not everyone agrees. As I noted, historically being offensive wasn't necessarily criminal.
And being offensive (outside the scope of the current topic) isn't necessarily criminal, though it appears some think it should be.
the offence being rape specifically in the side convo
I know and depending on the context rape wasn't a crime historically. It was more a matter of property rights.
Point is, we do need others to agree that violation is offensive if we want it to be a right/privilege. In a more general sense what is a violation and whether a particular offence should be a crime does need to be discussed. I suppose that's how we got to this glorious present.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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kreg
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Re: Rights or Privileges [Re: Rahz]
#27589771 - 12/21/21 05:44 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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getting a little muddy now are you talking about society, or what? In nature?? the only rights and "laws" in nature are the laws of physics and if you break the speed of light im telling you you will get arrested
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