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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,808
Loc: Canada
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Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? 8
#27554945 - 11/23/21 12:24 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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An old debate that many people may or may not be aware of is if coir has any kind of nutes for cubes or is it just a water reservoir? This has been a long standing debate that’s called into question whether cubes can eat coir and if they can or cannot raises other questions like are cubes truly secondary decomposers or just occupying that niche. While I’m not looking to answer the more in-depth implications, I did want to try and find if cubes do or do not “eat” coir.
To reach that end I’ve made some coir verm cakes with no grain, no flour, no dissolved nutes. A tiny amount of nitrogen has been added but it’s so small and represents about 2 mg per cake. The cakes have been sterilized to ensure there are no other organisms present to break down and release any potential nutes. I will be inoculating these cakes with some low nute LC and so if any fruits grow from these cakes we can infer at least some nutrients were available. This isn’t controlled enough to be an experiment but I feel we can make some good observations here.
Coir verm cakes:

Will keep this updated as it goes.

Edit: here is the quick and underwhelming conclusion
Okay so just to bring some closure to this thread here are the pics. We got some colonization at the top but the colony runs out of gas as it travels. I assume it just got a bit of a jump with some stored energy to recover and colonize the top 1/4” but it gets weak as she goes. Some of the jars have some very threads growth that made it to the bottom but, it’s so weak I doubt it’s ability to contribute anything to the colonies ability to fruit.
I will put these into some kind of fruiting conditions but I won’t hope for much. Here are the pics for those who like pics.

Final update. They didn’t fruit or do anything.
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The Mycologist
Explorer

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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27554947 - 11/23/21 12:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- "That you are here—that life exists, and identity; That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.” ― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass

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Wezaa
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: The Mycologist]
#27554965 - 11/23/21 12:32 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm intrigued to see how your experiment goes.
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Nimpo
Big Black


Registered: 05/10/12
Posts: 2,375
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Wezaa]
#27554984 - 11/23/21 12:43 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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aNewBeginning

Registered: 06/26/21
Posts: 708
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Pastywhyte] 1
#27555010 - 11/23/21 01:01 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Which type of coco coir are you using?
Coco coir is harvested from coconuts which are grown in coastal areas. Due to the location it is harvested, it is naturally saturated with sodium chloride and potassium.
Coco coir intended for growing plants is usually washed then buffered with calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate.
Washing the coco coir with water removes some water soluble elements.
Buffering the coco coir displaces the sodium and potassium bonds (cation+). They become calcium and magnesium bonds (cation++).
This process is used to create a product that is ready to be used for growing plants hydroponically.
Coco coir that is not properly washed and buffered will lead to nutrient lockout when growing plants because coco coir will always favor the calcium and magnesium. As a result, sodium and potassium will be displaced into the roots because the coco coir has not been fully satisfied.
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If you're using coco coir that is intended for growing plants - it should already be washed and buffered.
If you're using coco coir that is intended for other purposes - it may not be washed and buffered. It might not even be washed.
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Coco coir that is both washed and buffered should contain calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate - a source of nitrogen, calcium and magnesium.
Coco coir that is only washed and not buffered should contain sodium chloride and potassium (I'm unsure of which form) - a source of sodium, chlorine and potassium.
Coco coir that is neither washed nor buffered should contain sodium chloride and potassium and god knows what else. I've found sea shells and many different colored salts in coco coir that has been "washed and buffered" so I can only speculate what unwashed, unbuffered coco would contain.
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To make matters worse, coco coir intended for growing plants hydroponically is often treated with trichoderma.
In theory, all coco coir will have trace amounts of trichoderma however some companies selling coco coir intended for growing plants will inoculate their coco coir with trichoderma.
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The coco coir you use may or may not have an impact on the outcome of this experiment.
I love the idea of this and will be keenly following your post.
My unsolicited suggestion is to try this experiment with multiple types of coco coir.
Off the top of my head
- bricks intended for reptile bedding
- bricks intended for cultivation of plants
- bagged coco intended for cultivation of plants
These could all lead to different results.
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Apologies for all the text - I used to grow plants in coco coir and researched it heavily.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,808
Loc: Canada
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: aNewBeginning]
#27555016 - 11/23/21 01:09 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah I know the difference between the different types and grades of coir. I’m using freshwater retted, brown fibre, finely shredded coir which is what most people want for growing plants as well as fungi. That is the purpose of the brand I buy which is canna coir. The one thing that’s perhaps a little important (if you cold prep your coir) with coir meant as a growing media is that it’s not infused or treated with Trichoderma and this particular brand is not.
Generally when I talk about coir I’m referring to freshwater retted brown fibre. I usually assume no one thinks I’m talking about white fibre coir or salt water retted coir. Those would be very unsuitable for growing fungi.
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aNewBeginning

Registered: 06/26/21
Posts: 708
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27555042 - 11/23/21 01:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:] Generally when I talk about coir I’m referring to freshwater retted brown fibre. I usually assume no one thinks I’m talking about white fibre coir or salt water retted coir. Those would be very unsuitable for growing fungi.
You got me there :P.
Finally a subject that I know a little bit about came up and I couldn't help but post.
My apologies for the indiscretion.
I'm keenly following!
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Dendrocopos
Latin woodpecker



Registered: 11/02/21
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: aNewBeginning]
#27555125 - 11/23/21 02:31 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorry to go off topic. But i am high, and i cant understand wich coir is better then. Unwashed?
Sorry for my tardines.
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aNewBeginning

Registered: 06/26/21
Posts: 708
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Dendrocopos]
#27555199 - 11/23/21 03:35 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Karlinator3000 said: Sorry to go off topic. But i am high, and i cant understand wich coir is better then. Unwashed?
Sorry for my tardines.
You want washed coir. The majority of brands will be washed.
The very cheapest and nastiest coco should be avoided.
If you're looking at a specific brand make sure to search for it on shroomery and see if anyone else has experience with it.
I'll leave it there, also sorry to go off topic pasty
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,808
Loc: Canada
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: aNewBeginning]
#27555234 - 11/23/21 03:56 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not off topic, talking about coir after all. Carry on
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Dendrocopos
Latin woodpecker



Registered: 11/02/21
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27555304 - 11/23/21 04:39 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nothing like a good coirversation, you dig
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Sockadin



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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Pastywhyte] 1
#27555305 - 11/23/21 04:39 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think they do eat the coir Pasty. I did something similar a while back. If I can find the image I will edit this post. I know that they can decompose tin foil. They have a way of breaking down different substrates, but the real question is what is decomposition and what substrate is providing nutrients.
As far as I remember this didn't really go anywhere.
Edited by Sockadin (11/23/21 04:40 PM)
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bigfootscreepyuncl
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27555312 - 11/23/21 04:43 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Damn I musta got lucky as hell last year - I got 22kg of coir bricks on cyber monday last year for like $16usd and so far it works like a charm. I had no idea there were such big differences in grades, etc. and I had no idea about adding trich! It's low grade but it works well and I'm a cheap bastard so I'm on the hunt for more holiday deals this year lol.
Mostly just wanted to post so I could see how this turns out keep it up Pasty I always love seein' what you're up to!
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I 5318008 NOT a virgin!
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Lemgrub



Registered: 04/02/18
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27555324 - 11/23/21 04:51 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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In a different approach; we should be able to check if cubensis has cellulase or laccase enzymes encoded into it's genome by doing a BLAST search I think. It's been a while since I studied genomics, but if there are good quality cube sequences publicly available to analyze (I'm 99% sure there are) one can compare it to known protein sequences and find a identity/similarity percentage match if they're present.
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Eclipse3130
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Lemgrub]
#27555361 - 11/23/21 05:35 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'll guess it will colonize briefly and stall out from the nutrients in the LC. I believe coir is mostly nutrition-less which is why spores won't germinate on it. At least that's why I believe if you inject coir with spores nothing happens
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Eclipse3130]
#27555427 - 11/23/21 06:40 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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A big part of the reason why coir is considered safe is because it’s thought spores can’t germinate on it. Hence why cube spores to coir isn’t recommended.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,808
Loc: Canada
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Lemgrub]
#27555428 - 11/23/21 06:41 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lemgrub said: In a different approach; we should be able to check if cubensis has cellulase or laccase enzymes encoded into it's genome by doing a BLAST search I think. It's been a while since I studied genomics, but if there are good quality cube sequences publicly available to analyze (I'm 99% sure there are) one can compare it to known protein sequences and find a identity/similarity percentage match if they're present.
Work like this on active species is woefully behind. There are now some people doing work in such areas but there is a long way to go.
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MysticMycologist
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Registered: 10/14/21
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27555430 - 11/23/21 06:43 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Spire said: Coir lacks the nutrients the Hpoo has. The only thing that Coir adds to the substrate is water retention. It contains little to no nutrients at all (Yes there are traces of nutrients).
How is this even a plausable debate?
You are flat out wrong.
Coir has as much food for fungi as horse manure and will grow very similar crops to horse manure. In addition, potency is genetic and environmentaly determined, and is not related to choice of substrate. RR
RR has a lot to say on this subject
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: MysticMycologist] 1
#27555450 - 11/23/21 07:00 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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RR is a pioneer in that regard. Before him people only used coir as casing material and it was thought to be worthless as bulk media. Our perception has changed in that regard but mostly due to the belief that grain spawn holds most of the nutes and that the coir is simply to supply water. While I am in agreement that the real nutes come from the grain, what isn’t well understood (at least by me) is if coir has any nutes at all or is it a truly secondary decomposer. If this can produce any fruits at all it would go a fair ways to illuminating what’s going on, even if the nutrients from coir are only incidental compared to the spawn.
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mind.at.large
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Re: Do cubes eat coir or is it just a water reservoir? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27555563 - 11/23/21 08:43 PM (2 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- Mind's Easy Bag 2 Bag Grain Transfers Endless Sub Tek ...the doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me...
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