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OfflineMushyMom
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Registered: 07/19/21
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Last seen: 9 months, 28 days
Clemency for Julius Jones
    #27548250 - 11/18/21 11:37 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Wouldn’t it be cheaper and easier to just get rid of the death penalty?


Clemency for Julius Jones

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InvisibleAltered Beast
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Registered: 11/08/21
Posts: 245
Loc: Pullman Berth
Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: MushyMom]
    #27548262 - 11/18/21 11:47 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Might be cheaper, but that doesn’t mean it’s in the best interest of the public.

I understand where you’re coming from, and I’m conflicted about the death penalty, still, if somebody murdered anyone near and dear to me I’d probably want them executed.

If you can imagine to yourself that your child fell victim to a heinous crime, and you can honestly see yourself being okay with letting the perpetrator live, then you truly are an advocate for abolishing the death penalty.

I can’t see myself forgiving or being okay. If it happened to my family, even for lesser crimes than murder, I would try to arrange to have the culprit shanked to death in prison.

Edited by Altered Beast (11/18/21 11:52 AM)

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OfflineVP123
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Altered Beast]
    #27548293 - 11/18/21 12:13 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

What about the execution of people wrongly convicted? How would you feel if a close friend/relative who you know is innocent, ends up being executed for a crime he/she never committed? It happens, as you can see in this link

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence/executed-but-possibly-innocent

And in the meantime, those who actually committed the crime can laugh at the execution of an innocent person and the fact that, since the case was closed with the execution, they will not face any future consequences for that particular crime.

Edited by VP123 (11/18/21 12:14 PM)

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InvisibleAltered Beast
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Loc: Pullman Berth
Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: VP123]
    #27548316 - 11/18/21 12:34 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I said I was conflicted. A principle of the law is supposedly that it’s better for a guilty person to get away than it is for an innocent person to be convicted.

As horrific as it is for an innocent person to be executed, they are the exceptions not the rule. The guilt of the majority of people currently on death row isn’t questionable.

If something happened to someone close to me I’d want the culprit put to death, whether the state or a hitman or (preferably) myself did the killing.

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OfflineMushyMom
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Altered Beast]
    #27548335 - 11/18/21 12:55 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

It’s a great theory but the entire system is so flawed.  It winds up costing more all around and doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent.  From a cost/benefit standpoint, it seems like a waste.

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InvisibleAltered Beast
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Registered: 11/08/21
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Loc: Pullman Berth
Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: MushyMom]
    #27548352 - 11/18/21 01:07 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Running a society according to a literal cost basis has proven to be an incredible disaster over the last 40 years, morally, environmentally, and, paradoxically enough, fiscally.

Deterrent or no deterrent, there’s a part of the human spirit that demands vengeance, and it’s not a part of myself I’m willing to deaden for the sake of civility or society or anyone else.

Edited by Altered Beast (11/18/21 01:11 PM)

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: MushyMom] * 2
    #27548564 - 11/18/21 04:39 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Yes it would be cheaper to get rid of the death penalty. Then there is the issue of executing innocent people. Then there is the issue of a state executing anyone, since it does not deter crime. Altered Beast argues abolishing capital punishment may not be in the public interest. I'm not going to be overly critical of him because he's debating rationally, nondogmatically and admits to being conflicted on the issue. I agree with him that if somebody does great harm to someone I care about, I would like to kill them. But I wouldn't. And friends and relatives of murder victims are not a proxy for the public. I don't think capital pumishment is in the public interest.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27550725 - 11/20/21 06:56 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I think he should be released from prison an we should get rid of the death penalty as well its has no use.

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Registered: 04/28/17
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27554763 - 11/23/21 09:57 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think I would say it has no use .
  I never felt it was something that was intended to serve or benefit  society as a whole in any way .
 
  I always thought it's something that  is just for the victims , the close relatives or the people really affected by the loss of a loved one .
  If someone kills my wife and kids theres only going to be one thing that I will ever want for the rest of my life .
  To kill the motherfucker that did it .
    If the state kills the person who murdered them , 
  what does that have to do with you ?
  That's my justice , you aren't part of it .


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27554794 - 11/23/21 10:18 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Just wanna chime in here and say that if you’re starting sentences like “I’m opposed to the death penalty except for..” you don’t oppose the death penalty.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27554816 - 11/23/21 10:43 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

It's easy to understand the psychology of the victim's family. They are obviously disturbed. We shouldn't be making important social policy based on their psychology.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27554822 - 11/23/21 10:51 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The other day I saw a guy wearing a shirt that said "We kill people that kill people" and I was like


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27554829 - 11/23/21 11:01 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
It's easy to understand the psychology of the victim's family. They are obviously disturbed. We shouldn't be making important social policy based on their psychology.




Or anyone else’s


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27554925 - 11/23/21 12:12 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

It's disturbing to me to think that if someone murdered you , you would want that person reformed so they can have a second chance , and your cool with your family paying for it . 
  You guys are way better people than me though ....


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27554973 - 11/23/21 12:35 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
It's disturbing to me to think that if someone murdered you , you would want that person reformed so they can have a second chance , and your cool with your family paying for it . 
  You guys are way better people than me though ....




It’s disturbing to me that you think “I oppose the death penalty” means “I want murderers to go free.”


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27555011 - 11/23/21 01:03 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

What  would you want for my murderers then ? Since what I would want would be too much for you .


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Edited by Psilynut2 (11/23/21 01:08 PM)

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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27555169 - 11/23/21 03:03 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
What  would you want for my murderers then ? Since what I would want would be too much for you .


id want them to be ran threw a wood chipper slowly.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27555217 - 11/23/21 03:50 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
It's disturbing to me to think that if someone murdered you , you would want that person reformed so they can have a second chance




Why?

That's my reasoning, too. Why? Why would I want that person to die for it? Personally, in that scenario, I'm dead. I don't give a fuck anymore. There's nothing you can do to the guy that killed me that will change that. At this point, it becomes entirely a question of the safety of the people that are still alive. There are many solutions to that problem, and I happen to think that reformation is the best of them.

Killing is weird like that. Stealing? Yeah, I'd want my shit back. But you can't give me back life. That kind of makes the whole endeavor pointless, in my mind. Death penalty, or life in prison, doesn't really provide a solution. Nothing really provides me with a solution to death. If you can't provide a solution, then do the next best thing: some of what I would do. I like to think that the overall tone of my life is motivated by some desire for general welfare, and so the best way to help that is to turn a killer into a positive force within society.

Now, I use the word killing, while you use the word murder. Murder is a very specific form of killing, i.e., "unjust" killing.

I don't see a distinction between different forms of killing. Society says that a soldier that kills in combat is a hero, a person that kills in self defense has done a great thing, and the guy that randomly shoots you is a criminal. The outcome is the same in every case, but the motivation is different. I don't really care about motivation, I care about results. Nobody cares how you feel, we want raps.

These distinctions are, in my opinion, arbitrary and growing seemingly more capricious.

Heroic soldiers are rare. Most soldiers are, at worst, conscripts that are being coerced into picking up a gun at gunpoint, and at best, people that are have the ever so respectable veneer of having their coercion be financial. Chances are that a hero soldier didn't kill a half-dozen hero soldiers. Chances are the hero soldier just killed a half-dozen average dudes that just want to get through this unfortunate part of their life alive.

The guy that kills someone in self defense, in my view, rarely has to. I actually have trouble visualizing a realistic case where someone absolutely must kill in self defense and simply cannot make any decisions to avoid the situation, except for like, some crazy guy deciding that you, specifically, must die for no reason at all. In literally every case of justified self defense I've ever heard, there was either the option to retreat, an overreaction, or the guy committing a self defense made a series of decisions to put themself in danger. To me, even the conscious choice to carry a weapon in self defense signifies that you have decided to kill your way out of a situation instead of taking any other opportunity to resolve it peacefully. You are already discounting the possibilities of either fleeing or not putting yourself in a dangerous situation to begin with.

The guy that walks up to you and shoots you in the street is the crazy guy that decided to kill you for no reason from the above paragraph. You cannot stop that guy. You don't know when someone will snap and kill some people. The only way to prevent that guy is to disarm him, and that means disarming everybody. Because anybody could be that guy. The difference between someone exercising their constitutional rights and the murderer is your dead body. And, of course, the aforementioned snapping. Which, of course, people can see coming. It's like after every school shooting the surviving students are like "yeah, everyone knew that guy was totally gonna shoot up the school" The not-surviving students presumably have trouble making noises that don't involve violent defecation and gurgling. Since we have successfully built a fragmented society ruled by capitalism, which destroys natural human bonds and forcibly replaces them with methods of generating revenue, we don't see the crazy guy coming outside of fairly close-knit communities, and we don't get them whatever help they need.

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
and your cool with your family paying for it .




My family would be paying for the death penalty or for life in prison, too. Death penalty happens to be, by far, the most expensive option. Reforming the killer happens to be the least expensive option.

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
What  would you want for my murderers then ? Since what I would want would be too much for you .




Ideally, I'd want them to be shown more productive outlets for their energy. I kinda want the same for...basically everybody. But, again, capitalism demands that some people never realize their talents because they are not profitable enough.

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: Kryptos]
    #27555251 - 11/23/21 04:02 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Would it be ok for me to kill the person who is trying to murder me  or is my life not worth their chance  at self improvement and a more productive life style ?  If it is ,
  why is it so wrong for someone else to kill them on my behalf later ?


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Clemency for Julius Jones [Re: MushyMom]
    #27555267 - 11/23/21 04:10 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

To be honest, I have no problem with the death penalty. I'd like to be against it intellectually, but I have less than zero sympathy for the people who end up there, so it's hard for me to be against it. Emotionally, I actually like Japan's methods where they never tell you when you're going to be executed, and it could be at any time. One day the door just opens, and within minutes you're hanging. I like how it keeps people on death row in perpetual fear every moment of every day of their lives until the end.

I have a big problem with murderers being released from jail. If you murder someone, you should spend the rest of your life in jail, period, no exceptions.

I have no interest in deterrence, I have interest in removing people from society who murder people. However that happens is fine. Intellectually, I agree with all the arguments against the death penalty, but emotionally I like it.

Even if you get rid of the death penalty, I think our punishment for murderers should be significantly more severe than it is now. They should never, ever get out.

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