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OfflineXXfuzyxgamingXX
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #27551388 - 11/20/21 04:03 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The first time I took shrooms I had what I believed to be cyans.. looked identical to cyans, the wavy cap.. during the trip I experienced mild facial paralysis, the right side of my face went numb and I was worried I was having a stroke, but was able to not freak out or worry too much, I knew it was just the shrooms. It wasn't that bad, mild facial paralysis, which went away after an hour. The trip was a blast, those shrooms felt so fucking amazing, it felt like I was on MDMA... had incredible CEV's and very intense tactile sensations... I was grabbing fistfuls of dirt and squeezing it because touching things felt so amazing. I was filthy and covered in dirt head head toe by the end of trip, it was probably the best night of my life. I was with like 5 other people and we had a blast. I've never had that happen on cubensis or 4-aco-dmt so it's definitely unique to the woodlovers. I dont think it's anything to worry about tho. It's probably just toxins in the wood substrate itself that the shrooms concentrate. Or, it's an unknown alkaloid causing it. Cyans were very unique from cubes in that it felt like a roll, like MDMA. Was an awesome experience, I can't wait to have those again


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind *DELETED* [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27559146 - 11/27/21 04:16 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineSub-Easy
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27559330 - 11/27/21 09:18 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

People eat a lot of mushrooms from the woods, and they would get more exposure to anything the mushrooms absorb than we would. We take in lots of pollution from the things we eat. That's not what is causing the problem. Not even from bacteria, mold, or poisonous wood they grow on. It doesn't work like that. Living things don't store poison from other living things in high enough concentrations to be harmful, unless they are biologically adapted to. So it's highly unlikely that some would be dangerous and some would have no effect. It's definitely something these mushrooms are making inside their bodies, Not absorbing it from the environment.

Some people are genetically much more sensitive to mycotoxins than others. But that also only applies to certain mycotoxins, some kinds mess with all of us. And the kinds of mycotoxins that relate to genetic sensitivity take a long exposure to cause problems. So genetic sensitivity is probably not it.

I thought they found the substance in azurescense that caused the paralysis?

I wouldn't call it a toxin. Toxins, and things that cause a reaction, are not at all the same thing.

It doesn't mean it's not a mycotoxin causing it, but considering it's popularity and history of study, I think they would know if it's a mycotoxin.

A toxin is a metabolic byproduct of a living thing, that causes disease or tissue damage. Disease is when an organ stops working properly.

So, intoxication might be a better way to think of it. Intoxication has nothing to do with toxic, even though the word toxic is in it.

But regardless, it's harmless to you, unless you get hurt because you can't move when you need to.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27559663 - 11/27/21 02:59 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:

Have you ever domesticated a wood lover that was known to cause paralysis and then after domestication it stopped causing those effects? I mean why would you even do that, right?




In light of all the reports of this it had occurred to me what a good experiment that would have been to do!  But at the time I was just glad to have survived and not much interested in why they did this.  IIRC it was a mix of mature caps and some immature ones that I made into the tea that had the evil effects.


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Offlinepenicilliam
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: Sub-Easy] * 1
    #27560529 - 11/28/21 09:46 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

It is already known that some mushrooms are such highly effective bioaccumulators that they're not suitable for foraging even in an unpolluted environment. As an example up here in the pnw some tend to concentrate metals to a degree that they're not safe for eating no matter where you find them. Given the location sensitive nature of the anecdotal reports here, it wouldn't surprise me to be the case. Wouldn't have to be a metal, that was just an example.


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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27560663 - 11/28/21 11:49 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
Wood Lover Paralysis From Magic Mushrooms: The Aeruginascin Hypothesis

Barbara E. Bauer, MS has written some great articles on the connection between Wood lovers and Bufotoxins. She makes a case for Aeruginascin, a drug nearly identical to bufotenidine, a toxic compound that causes paralysis. Aeruginascin has been recently identified in cubensis.









Anyone know if Aeruginascin has been found in wood lovers and at what amounts?
Also for those that have experienced WLP it seem sometimes it happens during the trip and sometimes after. Are the sensations the same? How do they compare. WL’s are probably my favorite to trip on but I’m usually maxed out at 2g’s (I must be quite sensitive to the actives)and have never experienced WLP although on most deeper trips I usually have a really hard time walking during the peak.
It also takes me a long while to feel comfortable back in my legs.


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind *DELETED* [Re: Sub-Easy]
    #27561502 - 11/29/21 02:04 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by djbabyjesus

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Edited by djbabyjesus (11/29/21 03:02 AM)


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: CHUCK.HNTR]
    #27561504 - 11/29/21 02:11 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CHUCK.HNTR said:
Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
Wood Lover Paralysis From Magic Mushrooms: The Aeruginascin Hypothesis

Barbara E. Bauer, MS has written some great articles on the connection between Wood lovers and Bufotoxins. She makes a case for Aeruginascin, a drug nearly identical to bufotenidine, a toxic compound that causes paralysis. Aeruginascin has been recently identified in cubensis.









Anyone know if Aeruginascin has been found in wood lovers and at what amounts?
Also for those that have experienced WLP it seem sometimes it happens during the trip and sometimes after. Are the sensations the same? How do they compare. WL’s are probably my favorite to trip on but I’m usually maxed out at 2g’s (I must be quite sensitive to the actives)and have never experienced WLP although on most deeper trips I usually have a really hard time walking during the peak.
It also takes me a long while to feel comfortable back in my legs.





To my knowledge they have not done research like that on the wood lovers. Just cubensis. Aeruginascin was found in small amounts in cubes and has been identified in Inocybe aeruginascens which there have been reports of paralysis.


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InvisibleLeafRaker
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27561615 - 11/29/21 06:50 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

To add to your list of Azzie trips gone wrong:

I have experienced paralysis of the muscles used for swallowing. So I very nearly choked due to a very intense Azzie trip.

Poisonous mushrooms sounds extreme and it even sounded extreme to me until I read this thread and really pondered the points made here. And my difficulty in grasping this is in spite of the fact that I have myself courted serious danger with Azzies AND I am obsessed with harm reduction/risk management across all things. The simple conclusion that you made should have been obvious to me, but I am embarrassed to say it wasn't.

I would warn almost all off of Azzies. And for those who insist on consuming them I'd say:
1. Keep doses comparatively small, possibly no more than 2g or so. It might make sense for those seeking a profound experience to top off those doses with cubes or libs or something else. Going big on Azzies alone is really questionable.

2. Always plan for much more time out of commission with Azzies. My paralysis always occurred as my head was close to baseline and that physical deficit lasted for at least a few hours. The total time out of commission was much longer than it is for any other mushroom, except maybe for some Ps cyans or subs.

3. It probably makes sense to have a sitter that has experience with WLP if you plan to take them. It's hard to plan for all possibilities if you are alone and getting things wrong could be fatal.


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Invisiblewolfman42
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: LeafRaker]
    #27561619 - 11/29/21 06:58 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

It is not just Azurescens that cause this.

I don't believe them to be poisonous but I've heard them described that way. Not just Azurescens. I've heard people talk that way about psychedelic Mushrooms in general.

I've read trip reports of paralysis on high doses. I myself experienced paralysis on a lemon tek dose of PEs.

I could not swallow, nor could I lift a glass of water to drink in the first place. I could not feel or move my body for the first hour. I was paralyzed flat like a board on my bed. I was able to swallow again after about an hour. Below the neck paralysis lasted much longer.

My friend almost called an ambulance due to my state. We both had some experience with psychedelics before but never had this happen.


Edited by wolfman42 (11/29/21 07:16 AM)


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InvisibleLeafRaker
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: wolfman42]
    #27561635 - 11/29/21 07:20 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Super interesting information. I reliably experienced paralysis on substantial doses of Azzies, but I don't remember it on any other of the half-dozen or so species I have consumed, including if memory serves (it's fuzzy, TBH) Ps cyans. And I am someone who prefers to consume what are by most people's standards very large quantities.

Perhaps we just need a much bigger discussion of paralysis with mushrooms? It seems like one of the most serious pitfalls of mushroom consumption. If we don't understand what's happening even in the most noted case, Azzies, we're probably flying blind elsewhere.


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Invisiblewolfman42
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: LeafRaker]
    #27561644 - 11/29/21 07:28 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LeafRaker said:
Super interesting information. I reliably experienced paralysis on substantial doses of Azzies, but I don't remember it on any other of the half-dozen or so species I have consumed, including if memory serves (it's fuzzy, TBH) Ps cyans. And I am someone who prefers to consume what are by most people's standards very large quantities.

Perhaps we just need a much bigger discussion of paralysis with mushrooms? It seems like one of the most serious pitfalls of mushroom consumption. If we don't understand what's happening even in the most noted case, Azzies, we're probably flying blind elsewhere.




I do not view it as a pitfall but I agree we are flying blind. It will take some time for research to catch up due to the legalities. However, we do have many thousands of years with these magnificent creatures. So in that sense I feel comfortable even if paralysis is one of the intended effects :wink:

I think paralysis is part of the mind blowing experience some of us will have on them but not all. It is highly dependent on body chemistry and I also have a low tolerance.

I am quite happy with that trip because it taught me so much, the paralysis was all part of the mind blowing experience for me.


Edited by wolfman42 (11/29/21 07:29 AM)


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InvisibleLeafRaker
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27561651 - 11/29/21 07:42 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Your thoughts on deer+elk have greatly stimulated my imagination. I might be talking utter nonsense, but given the problem I'd like to throw out a few things that hit me.

One is that the diet of all animals in the family Cervidae places a real imperative on consumption of minerals, especially sodium.

Coastal areas and floodplains feature environments and organisms uniquely well suited to large concentrations of sodium and other minerals. Coastal vegetation is typically wildly different from that found a few kilometers inland, though inland animals will favor sodium-rich vegetation as well, moose muching on lily pads in freshwater lakes is an example.

I could imagine that deer and elk in those parks at the mouth of the Columbia gorge themselves on sodium-rich plants and fungi. I could even imagine that plants and fungi have found ways of using the deer and elk for their own purposes, i.e. that Azzie spores might be much more successful in deer dung and that the deer can be assured to keep the dung in the right places for Azzies if you paralyze the deer amongst the dune grasses.

One of my clearer memories of consuming Azzies is a strong taste of sodium. I wonder if what we call WLP reflects compounds in Azzies or other mushrooms that act upon ionotropic receptors, essentially hijacking those receptors to produce drug-like effects. I've only a scant understanding of the pharmacology, but I think barbiturates, like Sodium Pentothal, operated on those ionotropic receptors. I also *think* those are the receptors targeted by 'lethal injection' punishments.


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Knowledge is finite, ignorance is infinite.


Edited by LeafRaker (12/03/21 09:43 AM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27569052 - 12/04/21 12:23 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
Just wanted to clear the air on toxic and poisonous substances. As they are defined, Wood Loving mushrooms like azzies,cyan and subs are by definition, potentially poisonous or toxic mushrooms. If WLP is real, then they can in fact be toxic to the human body. Azurescens are poisonous mushrooms with varying degrees of toxins. Are they toxic enough to kill a full grown human? Not at normal recreational doses. But toxic to children? Definitely. A child died in Portland from cyans. I bet if you asked her parents if they thought their child was just 'intoxicated' and took a harmless substance they would not agree. This was very close to a neighborhood called Westmoreland... In that area there was and old abandoned park where cyanescens grew...those particular cyans caused paralysis in the 1-2 gram range. Very bad indeed. One of my friends, couldn't even lift a gallon of milk....Now I'm not saying they were the same ones but they were from located within 1/4mile of the cyans that killed the little girl.





Yeah, all that, but you still don't know what it is that caused the problem, or if it's produced by the mushroom itself, or from something comingled with the putative "poisonous" mushrooms, or came from some other mushroom growing in close proximity.  I mean, where's the toxicology report?  That somebody ate some mushrooms and died from them isn't terribly unusual.  How long did it take? Was it typical liver toxicity, where you feel sick, apparently get better, then die from liver failure within the next week or so?  Was it from paralysis affecting breathing or cardiac function?  I mean it doesn't make it any less significant but in terms of what could be responsible it makes a huge difference. :shrug:

I've had the "couldn't lift a gallon of milk" effect one time from Ps cyan growing in a local park, but I've grown tons (well many lbs) of Ps cyan from a cult mutation of mine years ago and consumed them all without ever having a problem - regardless of the state of development of the fruits (if that matters).  And they were wonderful, pretty much my all time favorite grow, with no paralytic effect other than the usual lethargy and difficulty of engaging voluntary muscles.

I continue to suspect genetics as the root cause, not environmental, if only because a common mutation could occur multiple times... :buzzaldrin:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


Edited by PrimalSoup (12/04/21 12:29 PM)


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind *DELETED* [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27585218 - 12/17/21 05:47 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

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InvisibleChorb
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27585273 - 12/17/21 06:25 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:Barbara E. Bauer, MS has written some great articles on the connection between Wood lovers and Bufotoxins. She makes a case for Aeruginascin, a drug nearly identical to bufotenidine, a toxic compound that causes paralysis. Aeruginascin has been recently identified in cubensis.




Presuming that the amounts found in cubes isn't damaging, which, at least anecdotally it doesn't seem to be, I could see the presence of this compound actually being something of a positive. Acting enough on the body to make one sluggish and off their feet, being a mild sedative that keeps people from doing too many (potentially risky or embarrassing) things while tripping their ass off.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27585461 - 12/17/21 08:37 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
Primal, how many shrooms did you eat bro!? 😂 nah jk but for real, what dosages were y’all taking of the home cultivated cyans?




For the nasty fuckers, I did test them first to get a dosage which was probably equivalent to a few grams dried (as tea from fresh though).  I could look it up in my journal, I recall it says something like "EVIL FUCKERS BURN THEM ALL!" :laugh2:

For the domesticated ones it was always high doses, around 30-50 g fresh as tea.  That was from a time when I was dosing regularly but not quite as often as more recently, so tolerances weren't that high, but these were strong like PE strong. :awesomenod:

If it WAS something other than psilcocybin or close allies tolerance is unlikely to work the same for both things.  So I recall upping dosages regularly on the domestics but only ever having the usual "I can't figure out how to move" not the "I can't move anything" effect. FWIW. :shrug:

Quote:

I’ll look more into the girl that died and report back, she was pretty young.




12 I think.


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: wolfman42]
    #27585666 - 12/18/21 12:21 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wolfman42 said:
It is not just Azurescens that cause this.

I don't believe them to be poisonous but I've heard them described that way. Not just Azurescens. I've heard people talk that way about psychedelic Mushrooms in general.

I've read trip reports of paralysis on high doses. I myself experienced paralysis on a lemon tek dose of PEs.

I could not swallow, nor could I lift a glass of water to drink in the first place. I could not feel or move my body for the first hour. I was paralyzed flat like a board on my bed. I was able to swallow again after about an hour. Below the neck paralysis lasted much longer.

My friend almost called an ambulance due to my state. We both had some experience with psychedelics before but never had this happen.





I have had this exact thing happen to me. High dose of cubensis with super hot tomato soup on top....Just as you describe...but IME, its different than WLP. Same same but different. When It happened to me on cubes I ate my normal 3.5g but added the hot tomato soup and was floored and very blasted. Others has varying effects but I couldn't talk and was stunned by the glory and then super lethargic after. Everyone was super lethargic but enjoyed it. I couldn't move. Still, only loosely like WLP IMO. Related tho probably. Suspect compounds like Aeruginascin have been found in cubensis.


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27831231 - 06/22/22 03:36 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
I continue to suspect genetics as the root cause, not environmental, if only because a common mutation could occur multiple times... :buzzaldrin:




Speaking of genetics...look what I found....Azurescens in JUNE!



These are from an area with numerous paralysis reports. However, these seem a little different than what I usually find in the same area. These are all kinda short. Plus, they were found out of season. Anyway, they were all pretty similar looking for the most part. I took spore prints and ordered some agar plates. I used the spores from #1, #2 and #3 in the pic below.



Plate #1 was started first. last week or so. I scraped some spores directly from the spore print and it grew mycelium and a grayish hair-like contamination. I cut out a clean part and transferred it to another plate (pink pic).

A few days later I cut out a few more chunks and transferred to new plates. The streaks you see are from me fumbling around with the transfer on the agar. Kinda cool...everywhere it touched turned to myc.

After that I decided to try cutting out the contamination from the first plate. Seems good idk... So far all the plates look clean. Spore collections #2 and #3 were started a couple days ago. Same deal. Myc and grey hair like contams.


The fresh stem butts and caps were all transferred directly to an old 4ft 2x4 out back. Checked on them the other day and most took to the wood. Covered them in wood chips/coco/perlite. Planted ghost peppers on top.

Phenotypes acquired. June Azzies. I looked in a couple other spots but this was the only place I found any. One thing I noticed is it was around an active ant hill. Red and black medium-large sized ants. I wondered if they were similar to the ants that farm mycelium. They were carrying grass into the nest just like those ants do.


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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus] * 1
    #27831238 - 06/22/22 03:46 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Everything you've touched has not turned to mycelium sadly, that is bacterial.


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