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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
mine dg *DELETED*
    #27547757 - 11/18/21 04:17 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by djbabyjesus

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Edited by djbabyjesus (09/03/23 09:02 PM)


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InvisibleAssyrian
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Registered: 11/17/21
Posts: 159
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27547782 - 11/18/21 04:50 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The dose makes the poison, look into the concept of LD50.
I think it depends on where you want to draw the line and defining poisonous.
Like, are side effects proof of poisoning?
Which substances are they caused by?
Are they just unpleasant effects caused by an unknown substance or interaction between substances?
Are these unpleasant effects somehow damaging to some organs or just transitory alterations in perception that don't cause any permanent damage?
Lots to be pondered, as you can see it depends on how strict you want to be.


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
shoulda died already
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Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus] * 2
    #27547785 - 11/18/21 04:55 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Mushrooms are sensitive to their substrate, they can and will pick up things in the soil that you may not want to consume. That account needs to weigh their experiences against a cultivated patch that's grown in a supplied substrate.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Registered: 05/30/21
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #27547798 - 11/18/21 05:19 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
Mushrooms are sensitive to their substrate, they can and will pick up things in the soil that you may not want to consume. That account needs to weigh their experiences against a cultivated patch that's grown in a supplied substrate.




This. My theory of woodlover paralysis is it is caused by mycotoxins from various wood-rotting molds growing alongside the mushroom. This theory is supported by the fact that some patches cause it a little, some a lot, some not at all.


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InvisibleAssyrian
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #27547831 - 11/18/21 06:05 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Mushrooms are known to be bioconcentrators so obviously that can't be ruled out in non-controlled conditions, however as previously said, it'd be even just an unpleasant side effect of some biologically active but not necessarily toxic compound
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioaccumulation


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27548382 - 11/18/21 01:43 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
By definition, "Mushroom poisoning is poisoning resulting from the ingestion of mushrooms that contain toxic substances. Its symptoms can vary from slight gastrointestinal discomfort to death in about 10 days. Mushroom toxins are secondary metabolites produced by the fungus."




No psilocybin woodlovers aren't poisonous in the sense you state at all (liver toxicity), nor are all woodlovers poisonous even in the sense of muscle problems - IF you grow them yourself.  It's always the wild ones that throw these effects, SFAIK.  And I've encountered it myself with wild Ps. cyans I picked in a local park under some blackberry vines.  Miserable stuff, one of the worst experiences I've ever had with mushrooms - and I trashed the culture I was taking from them.

As to WHY?  I suspect it's environmental toxins, pesticides, substrate, or perhaps genetics.  If you domesticate them and they don't have this paralytic effect than you won't get it from any dose.  I know because I've grown tons of a Ps cyan strain that I started from spores, grew indoors (well in the garage in a converted fridge) and that mutated due to mumble mumble see this thread from which I grew tons of excellent fruit and consumed all of it. :shrug:

I suspect people also confuse the muscle inhibition effect of high doses (cubes included) with paralysis but it's not at all the same thing. :hereyougo:


--------------------

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Edited by PrimalSoup (11/18/21 01:52 PM)


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind *DELETED* [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27548718 - 11/18/21 06:48 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by djbabyjesus

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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind *DELETED* [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #27548729 - 11/18/21 07:01 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind *DELETED* [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27548745 - 11/18/21 07:17 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by djbabyjesus

Reason for deletion: false


Edited by djbabyjesus (11/18/21 08:05 PM)


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27548778 - 11/18/21 07:44 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
and I trashed the culture I was taking from them.





That's what I'd do too, but it's a shame, because it would really be useful information to grow that culture. If one identified some azurescens that were known to produce the 'paralysis' reaction, it'd be really interesting to see if the ones artificially grown from that culture would have the same problems. Also, if another toxic fungi or bacteria was involved, it might reveal on an agar culture one took from the outside of the fruiting body or from stem butt/substrate.

If another organism is involved, one could clean it on agar and 'cure' the azzies of the paralysis reaction.

Of course, who the hell wants to grow out a mushroom they know might give them a bad reaction? It'd take someone very motivated, willing to grow mushrooms knowing they might be inedible, merely for science. I can say I got a clean azurescens syringe, and I fully expect any mushrooms I get from it will be completely free of this reaction.


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #27548789 - 11/18/21 07:58 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

"I can say I got a clean azurescens syringe, and I fully expect any mushrooms I get from it will be completely free of this reaction."




What makes you expect the phenotype you have is non-paralysis causing? I am curious. Plz let us know how that comes out. And if you have any negative effects (paralysis) in the 2g plus range.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27548792 - 11/18/21 08:03 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
Quote:

"I can say I got a clean azurescens syringe, and I fully expect any mushrooms I get from it will be completely free of this reaction."




What makes you expect the phenotype you have is non-paralysis causing? I am curious. Plz let us know how that comes out. And if you have any negative effects (paralysis) in the 2g plus range.




Because I don't think it is caused by phenotype, I think it is caused by co-culturing with other fungi which are the ones actually producing the toxins. So if that theory is right, it is impossible to get the reaction starting from clean spores. I trust that these spores are fully cleaned of any non-azuresces fungi.

I will be testing it but I'm gonna have to update you in one year, haha  - I am assured that since I just started spores now I can't get fruits this year.


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #27548804 - 11/18/21 08:07 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)



I've wondered if the forest of amanitas had something to do with it.
Also Creon, have you ever experienced WLP? I just looked into co-culturing. Interesting stuff. Its kinda like graphing trees where they can adopt trait from the parent plants root system. I read somewhere that azzies don't like being grown in sterile conditions and it works better if you take mycelium from out side because of a possible symbiotic relationship with other organisms.



Edited by djbabyjesus (11/18/21 10:27 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus] * 1
    #27548900 - 11/18/21 09:22 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
Maybe its a phenotype issue. Some containing more nasty stuff than others. People either get lucky from a home patch or they don't....people have reported growing strains of cyan at home and having negative effects. In my experience, this is very true with cyans and azzies. Ive had it take 7g to cause paralysis from cyans...and another time only two grams...different sources... one source(area) was a constant problem. With azzies, some wild patches I pick are all good year after year, up to 5-7 grams no problems. Some places I won't even eat the mushrooms from...Identical substrate. I'm a big fan of the idea that the wild ones are just that, wild untamed phenotypes that produce varied drug profiles. Some good, some toxic or for lack of a better term..bad. Bad for you, cause paralysis.




I didn't mean so much they never cause paralysis if you grow them yourself, more that if you grow them yourself you can select a strain that doesn't have that effect, like any other selection for what you want/what you don't want.  I've had cubes that were totally nasty in various ways and I trashed those cultures too. :laugh2:

I've got some culture going that came from Capt Future and identifed as something in azure/sub/alleni spectrum which I'm aiming at a big outdoor grow for next year so I fucking HOPE they aren't going to slay me that way. 

That would totally suck. :nojustno:

Wild patches are the devil's playground it would seem; heaven or hell, flip that coin.  :utterconfusion:

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
I do think you are on point with growing out certain culture over others.... you know....its not too late in the year...I could possibly go get spore prints from the different areas. I have 4 separate areas....one of which I swear is the good Azzie phenotype with no paralysis. Maybe someone wants to grow out All 4 and see which are good? Science!!!




I'll totally take a suspected good azurescens spore print, I'd hate to commit to 4 separate tests as that one cyan experience was enough for a lifetime.  I'd done a small amount and they seemed good, then with the full up I thought I was gonna stop being able to breath, so, uhm, no thanks.  But I like the idea.  Need some volunteers to test them, obviously. :lol:

I do think it's genetics.  The ones I stumbled on were growing in prime habitat without any obvious cofactors. :buzzaldrin:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind *DELETED* [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27548951 - 11/18/21 10:07 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by djbabyjesus

Reason for deletion: locations


Edited by djbabyjesus (11/19/21 03:02 AM)


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InvisibleBlazer420
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Registered: 06/13/09
Posts: 4,825
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus] * 1
    #27548991 - 11/18/21 10:37 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

lol the psilocybin in any mushrooms will make your body react to it as its a poison. No matter what species it is.. Wood lovers just are known to have some paralysis affects. :lolsy:


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: Blazer420]
    #27549040 - 11/18/21 11:40 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Blazer420 said,
lol the psilocybin in any mushrooms will make your body react to it as its a poison. No matter what species it is.. Wood lovers just are known to have some paralysis affects.




how does your body react to psilocybin it as its a poison? I'm not sure that psilocybin has been shown to be poisonous. :shrug:


Edited by djbabyjesus (11/20/21 03:57 AM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27549861 - 11/19/21 02:26 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
I'll do it. I'm pretty sure we are close to narrowing down an antidote. I have some questions.....how does a person separate a pheno of mushrooms from the rest.....does, a stem butt make a clone of that pheno? I can separate the 4 collections...but phenos exist with those collections....How do you suggest I go about separating them.....BY collection and then maybe by look? put ones that look alike together from the same collection....were talking more like 8-16 different runs  :laugh:






Mmm, as long as the stems are attached so you know what they came from.  Stems or caps it doesn't matter for cloning but usually stems since you can split them open and go after the cleaner tissue.  For cloning.

Prints will have more genetic variation than clones from tissue but those phenos are pretty distinct just looking at them. Like the next to last ones the best FWIW.

Moving away from the coast it could just be climate variation too. For the other you need to find the smoking deer - having a liedown ("oh no I can't move!") near a patch that's become unresponsive to predators (you or cougars).  I think that would be a gold standard test.  Got a lot of deer in my neighborhood and you can have all of them that you want. :laugh2:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind *DELETED* [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27550625 - 11/20/21 03:25 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by djbabyjesus

Reason for deletion: location


Edited by djbabyjesus (11/20/21 05:38 AM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Azurescens are Poisonous Mushrooms...Change my mind [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27551326 - 11/20/21 03:09 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
If I followed the deer trail I would come to a spot where the entire area had been matted down as if a few deer had laid down there. In those spots, tons of Azurescens....and deer do doo.  :glittershitz:





Bingo!

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:






Lovely.  Interesting theory, a psilocin dominant woodlover would be excellent for tea. :hereyougo:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


Edited by PrimalSoup (11/20/21 03:23 PM)


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