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mistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
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simple senescence question
#27546079 - 11/16/21 05:12 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am developing a pretty decent grasp of what senescence is and how it makes sense in nature - but hoping to connect with someone with some experience or scientific expertise to break down a specific scenario...
I have a favorite strain that I've grown about 10 generations of grows with. The strain was originally taken from a spore print, then agar then LC then bulk. New generations primarily came from that original LC ( from doing a LC to LC propagation ) ... sometimes tissue clone to agar to LC to bulk if the LC seemed bacterial or showed signs of contamination.
I've noticed the fruiting slowing down, but thinking it may be from multiple factors - not necessarily as a result of senescence.
I have always wanted to clarify if say... taking a spore print at any point "resets" genetics, and if not, what it does reset exactly.
From my understanding a cube print doesn't restore all genetic possibilities from the first Cubensis ever grown, LOL. In other words, I am assuming that if say one was growing a Penis Envy - the chances of cultivating a B+ from a PE spore print would be unlikely? impossible?
Thanks in advance!
Edited by mistermushly (11/16/21 05:54 PM)
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Assyrian
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Registered: 11/17/21
Posts: 159
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I think it might help picturing the concept of senescence in terms of copies made from an original. When you start with spores, they germinate creare new individuals or originals. When you clone one of these originals, by growing up and expanding, it is copying itself over and over, substrate to substrate, allowing more room for error and stretch into each copying process. So just like a painting that has been copied by a painter that copied it from a copy made by some other painter which was made from the original, each copying process introduces room for distancing it from the original.
Some thorought readings on fungal senescence can be found in a 1992 article published in the annual review of genetics and the book The Fusarium laboratory manual.
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mistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
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Re: simple senescence question [Re: Assyrian]
#27547385 - 11/17/21 06:41 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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thanks Assyrian, a good explanation, Another good analog might be the way human cells continue to copy until they wear out and we essentially age.
Mushrooms reproduce differently however, so wondering if they essentially carry all of they're original genetics within there spores or become narrowed with each clone or crossbreed etc....
...the related question that remains " I am assuming that if say one was growing a Penis Envy - the chances of cultivating a B+ from a PE spore print would be unlikely? impossible? "
Edited by mistermushly (11/17/21 06:59 PM)
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Assyrian
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Registered: 11/17/21
Posts: 159
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I think the same genetics principles for other organisms would apply. It would be highly unlikely but not statistically impossible to get a non-PE looking culture from a PE spore print, unless somehow normal caps traits have been completely lost and can no longer be found in those spores. While starting from spores each time would reset the senescence clock to zero, the possibility of having dropped some genetic traits compared to the previous generation still stands and cannot be avoided. It'd be around the same with pollinating flowers, you're crossing two individual flowers (or germinating two spores) and hence cutting out the traits that might have been present in other plants whose flowers weren't pollinated and the resulting seeds not grown. Bottlenecking is less sharp since every spore print has hundreds of thousands of spores (flowers) which germinate (pollinate) into almost as many mycelia (seeds).
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mistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
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Re: simple senescence question [Re: Assyrian]
#27556956 - 11/24/21 11:11 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nice breakdown Assyrian, thanks- Thinking of senescence and genetic breeding as 2 separate phenomena clears things up.
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Tri-Polar
Paramecium Brain



Registered: 08/23/18
Posts: 374
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I think this post from Workman may answer your question  12 years old but relevant
Quote:
Workman said: Mushrooom genetics are a little strange since a single mushroom produces spores that can then act as both parents for a new mycelium. Essentially, you are selfing or inbreeding each time you do a multispore grow.
Now consider a wild collection of Psilocybe cubensis with a high heterozygosity. This basically means that most or all of each pair of genes in the mushroom are different from each other. Its the same gene location with the same basic function, but different versions. For example, if there is a single gene for height, you might have a version that gives short mushrooms and a version that gives tall mushrooms. If heterozygosity is high, you have one of each which may result in medium mushrooms unless one of the height genes is dominant.
Now, when you do multispore from a single mushroom you randomly get a mix of all the genes. Sticking to our height gene example, you could get two short copies, two tall copies or one of each. Obviously the strains with two short copies will be short and the ones with two tall copies will be tall.
Lets say we liked the short mushrooms so we saved that one and took a spore print for later. In this example the tall version of the height gene is lost to later generations. There is a net loss of heterozygosity. Over the entire genome the loss is about 50% per generation.
So mathematically we can figure out how many sequential multispore generations we need until the heterozygosity is reduced to an insignificant level and the strain is stable even from multispore.
Starting with a presumably high (~100%) heterozygosity from a wild collection. In reality, the heterozygosity is probably lower than 100%, but its an easy number to start with.
100% wild print 50% 1st generation from wild print 25% 2nd generation from 1st generation print 12.5% 3rd generation..... 6.25% 4th generation..... 3.12% 5th generation..... 1.56% 6th generation..... 0.78% 7th generation.....
You can see that the heterozygosity drops off quickly in the first few generations and is less than 1% after the 6th generation. This highlights the importance of choosing the best traits early on when there are more to choose from. Attempting to isolate traits in well established strains results in only minimal improvements unless spontaneous mutations increase the heterozygosity in a positive way (rare).
In summary:
Popular classic strains in circulation have all been grown well beyond 6 generations and are relatively stable from multispore with little need for isolation.
New strains, from wild material or cross breeding between different strains of the same species, can be stabilized fairly quickly with 6 or 7 generations of sequential multispore grows.
Selection is most important early in the process and if good genes are bred out, they are gone forever. Archiving original or early generation prints is recommended for preserving heterozygosity for later selective breeding. Continuous isolation of a bad strain with hopes of significant improvement is futile.
Does that help?
-------------------- Intro to Shroomery The Sexy TEKs™ IF I HAVE SEEN FURTHER IT IS BY STANDING UPON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS, BITCH. hey fuck you dont look at me
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mistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
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Re: simple senescence question [Re: Tri-Polar]
#27560816 - 11/28/21 02:18 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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this is awesome for the average non-scientist to get a grasp- Thanks Tri-Polar! ( and Workman if your out there in the ether somewhere) Though sometimes can be misleading sometimes it's great to have the depth of knowlege from posts created decades before.
If accurate ( and the genetic possibilities fall off in even 50% rate per generation) this answers a lot of questions, and makes things quite easy to track. The biggest takeaway I think is how it highlights the importance of saving/backing up before traits are potentially lost.
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QM33
(NOT A PUPPET!) ❤❤❤❤❤



Registered: 04/09/20
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-------------------- OmManiPadmeHum,OmManiPadmeHum, OmManiPadMeHum... There are known knowns, there are known unknowns, there are also unknown unknowns. With great privilege comes great responsibility.
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Tri-Polar
Paramecium Brain



Registered: 08/23/18
Posts: 374
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Re: simple senescence question [Re: QM33]
#27562451 - 11/29/21 10:02 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- Intro to Shroomery The Sexy TEKs™ IF I HAVE SEEN FURTHER IT IS BY STANDING UPON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS, BITCH. hey fuck you dont look at me
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