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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d] * 3
    #27544356 - 11/15/21 02:10 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Many on the anti-vax and anti-mandate side use flawed and disingenuous arguments to justify the fact that they simply don't give a fuck about anyone but themeselves, but they think they should still be entitled to soak up all the benefits of society. The more I listen to the arguments from that side the closer I get to being fully pro-mandate.



If you disagree with what I'm saying, can you address it completely, logically and directly? Koods likes to just cherry pick one little bit and disregard the rest, and ignore my requests for sources or numerical clarification.

It's not as if vaccine is risk is 1 + 1 = 2 and COVID risk is 2 + 2 = 4 and us 'antivaxxers' are arguing that 4 < 2. I see logic to both sides here (and for as long as not getting vaccinated has logic to it, I disagree with mandates and forcing people to take them).




I wasn't talking about you individually, but a few examples from your most recent posts:

Quote:

With natural exposure, I contract COVID, make spike proteins



Quote:

With the shots, if the spike proteins in them are harmful



Quote:

So natural exposure may result in lower lifetime spike protein amounts.





It's just clear that you are immensely confused and in the dark in terms of the science and data, yet you continue to argue passionately. Your time would likely be better spent trying to understand what you're talking about, not creating fantasy science to back up the narrative you want to be true.


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544362 - 11/15/21 02:13 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

which may result in greater spike protein amounts than COVID exposure.




I don’t think you are grasping the concept. When you are infected, your cells are going to produce many billions maybe even trillions of copies of the spike protein. Your cells literally produce viral proteins until they explode or die, spewing thousands of free spike proteins into the extracellular medium, getting into the blood stream and lymphatic system.

The amount of protein made from the vaccine is orders of magnitude smaller. A cell produces one or two copies before the mRNA that told the cell how to make it is degraded. The cell doesn’t explode. The proteins attach to the surface and eventually are destroyed. You could get the vaccine every week for your entire life and never make as many spike proteins as you would being infected for a week.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (11/15/21 02:21 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544364 - 11/15/21 02:17 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

No, sorry, the none of the vaccines cause your cells to produce live virus. It seems you'd think wrong


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544369 - 11/15/21 02:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Please don’t read scientific papers with the idea that the authors are implying anything. They aren’t. This seems to be the number one error I see with people who reference academic papers. The conclusions made are explicitly stated.

Their explicit conclusion was that PARTIAL vaccination does not provide sterilizing immunity. There’s nothing groundbreaking there.




There exact conclusion was:
Quote:


These results might suggest that the first vaccination induces immunogenicity but not sterile immunity.




I don't read papers and put words in their mouths or try to assume they're implying anything. But yes, that was an honest oversight on my part. Regardless, studies exist, that I've already supplied you with, that demonstrate the same (vaccines don't confer sterilizing immunity).


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: feevers]
    #27544372 - 11/15/21 02:21 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Quote:

feevers said:
Many on the anti-vax and anti-mandate side use flawed and disingenuous arguments to justify the fact that they simply don't give a fuck about anyone but themeselves, but they think they should still be entitled to soak up all the benefits of society. The more I listen to the arguments from that side the closer I get to being fully pro-mandate.



If you disagree with what I'm saying, can you address it completely, logically and directly? Koods likes to just cherry pick one little bit and disregard the rest, and ignore my requests for sources or numerical clarification.

It's not as if vaccine is risk is 1 + 1 = 2 and COVID risk is 2 + 2 = 4 and us 'antivaxxers' are arguing that 4 < 2. I see logic to both sides here (and for as long as not getting vaccinated has logic to it, I disagree with mandates and forcing people to take them).




I wasn't talking about you individually, but a few examples from your most recent posts:

Quote:

With natural exposure, I contract COVID, make spike proteins



Quote:

With the shots, if the spike proteins in them are harmful



Quote:

So natural exposure may result in lower lifetime spike protein amounts.





It's just clear that you are immensely confused and in the dark in terms of the science and data, yet you continue to argue passionately. Your time would likely be better spent trying to understand what you're talking about, not creating fantasy science to back up the narrative you want to be true.



How so? Please point out specifically what's wrong with those quotes.

You have to realize you literally quoted a hypothetical, that I provided to encourage Koodz to back up his claims that I was genuinely seeking. That's a very disingenuous reply on your part. If you want to dialogue about this, then get at the core of what I'm saying, not a tangential hypothetical I supplied only to encourage Koodz to help me confirm something.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 02:30 PM)


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544376 - 11/15/21 02:24 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

which may result in greater spike protein amounts than COVID exposure.




I don’t think you are grasping the concept. When you are infected, your cells are going to produce many billions maybe even trillions of copies of the spike protein. Your cells literally produce viral proteins until they explode or die, spewing thousands of free spike proteins into the extracellular medium, getting into the blood stream and lymphatic system.

The amount of protein made from the vaccine is orders of magnitude smaller. A cell produces one or two copies before the mRNA that told the cell how to make it is degraded. The cell doesn’t explode. The proteins attach to the surface and eventually are destroyed. You could get the vaccine every week for your entire life and never make as many spike proteins as you would being infected for a week.



I'm asking you for a source to confirm that the vaccine does indeed create so much less spike proteins. I'm not disputing this fact, I'm looking to confirm it. I believe I've heard and believe it personally, but I could not find it myself. Without proof, your statements don't mean much, that's why I'm asking for it. If it's not true, then it could be the case that natural immunity may result in lower lifetime spike protein amounts.

You guys are so blindly hostile, lol. And my argument does not at all rest on this hypothetical that I've entered with Koodz, fwiw. I'm just asking him to prove this so I can confirm myself, nothing wrong with that.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 02:27 PM)


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27544378 - 11/15/21 02:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
No, sorry, the none of the vaccines cause your cells to produce live virus. It seems you'd think wrong



That's not what I meant or said, I meant that they don't necessarily stop the virus from reproducing. So even though you're vaccinated, SARS-COV-2 could still presumably be reproducing.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 02:28 PM)


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544386 - 11/15/21 02:30 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

There’s not going to be any sterilizing immunity with covid unless you get regular boosters. There’s no such thing as natural long term neutralizing immunity to coronaviruses. Every single human coronavirus has demonstrated the ability to reinfect usually within a year or two. The only possible way to get there is through regular boosters that will maintain sufficient levels of circulating antibodies.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544397 - 11/15/21 02:41 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
No, sorry, the none of the vaccines cause your cells to produce live virus. It seems you'd think wrong



That's not what I meant or said, I meant that they don't necessarily stop the virus from reproducing. So even though you're vaccinated, SARS-COV-2 could still presumably be reproducing.




There is not a single vaccine in the world that completely stops viruses from getting into your cells. Part of the adaptive immune response is the ability to kill your own cells after they have been infected. And there is no adaptive immune response that can’t be overwhelmed by exposure to enough viruses.

Covid vaccines don’t provide the same immunity that measles vaccines do, not because the vaccines are better or worse but because the viruses have different abilities.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544418 - 11/15/21 02:56 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
There’s not going to be any sterilizing immunity with covid unless you get regular boosters. There’s no such thing as natural long term neutralizing immunity to coronaviruses. Every single human coronavirus has demonstrated the ability to reinfect usually within a year or two. The only possible way to get there is through regular boosters that will maintain sufficient levels of circulating antibodies.



I didn't say 'long term sterilizing immunity'. But clearly the longer the window of sterilizing immunity, the better. So far it appears natural immunity provides superior sterilizing properties for several months. If the vaccines provide no or little sterilizing immunity, this undoubtedly a huge benefit to natural immunity in terms of reducing spread. Natural immunity also seems to be more generalized. See
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

You seem to imply that COVID vaccines may confer sterilizing immunity, this is counter to everything I've read. Can you please provide a source?


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 03:14 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods] * 2
    #27544424 - 11/15/21 02:59 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Imagine trying to explain rna viruses to someone with strong opinions about vaccines at this stage of the pandemic


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544431 - 11/15/21 03:03 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
No, sorry, the none of the vaccines cause your cells to produce live virus. It seems you'd think wrong



That's not what I meant or said, I meant that they don't necessarily stop the virus from reproducing. So even though you're vaccinated, SARS-COV-2 could still presumably be reproducing.




There is not a single vaccine in the world that completely stops viruses from getting into your cells. Part of the adaptive immune response is the ability to kill your own cells after they have been infected. And there is no adaptive immune response that can’t be overwhelmed by exposure to enough viruses.

Covid vaccines don’t provide the same immunity that measles vaccines do, not because the vaccines are better or worse but because the viruses have different abilities.



Exactly, so it's about to what degree the vaccine is reducing reproduction. Many are wrongly under the impression it's similar to a measles vaccine, so they apply similar logic throughout, but that's not the case.

So back to my point, if it's reproducing, despite being vaccinated, then, logically, you're being exposed to both SARS-COV-2 spike proteins and the vaccine spike proteins.. so IF the vaccine spike protein is harmful and biodistributes beyond the injection site (and I couldn't find evidence either way, aside from that japanese study on animals which found it traveled everywhere), the factors you'd need to consider are a) how much spike proteins the vaccines produce and how often you get a booster, b) how much they limit reproduction of SARS-COV-2 (and to what extent harm from spike proteins is reduced from the vaccinated immune response), and c) how much an unvaccinated produces, comparatively, and how long before they'll likely be producing again. Only with that data could you conclude what minimizes lifetime spike protein exposure. However, if the vaccines spike protein does stay local and is not harmful, then the comparison becomes simpler, but we still need some data regarding how effective the vaccines are at reducing SARS-COV-2 reproduction.

So, in essence I'd like to see data on how effective the vaccines are at reducing SARS-COV-2 reproduction, along with how the spike proteins biodistribute, which is why I was asking for sources.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 03:16 PM)


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27544435 - 11/15/21 03:06 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Imagine trying to explain rna viruses to someone with strong opinions about vaccines at this stage of the pandemic



? I don't have 'strong opinions about vaccines' in general (I get my tetanus shots for example), and the vaccines we're talking about are mRNA vaccines... I just take issue with people thinking the risk analysis is cut and dry, while disparaging any viewpoints that aren't supportive of vaccine mandates.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 03:13 PM)


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods] * 1
    #27544489 - 11/15/21 03:44 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

It wasn’t easy. Had to figure out the molecular weight of a strand of mRNA that encodes for the spike protein then used avagadros number to get the number of actual molecules in a 50 microgram dose of the vaccine. The answer is about a trillion mRNA molecules. That translates directly into 1 trillion spike proteins. 

In an average covid infection a person has a viral load of about 10-100 billion copies of the virus or degenerate viral material, with about 30 spike proteins per virus.

So in the end it does appear that the amount of spike protein you get from the vaccine is about the same as the infection. I was pretty surprised how close these two calculations were to each other, but in hind sight I guess it makes sense that they would dose the vaccine to be similar to what you would get during infection.

Of course the major difference is that nearly all the vaccine action happens in your arm muscle while the virus produces spikes in cells all over your body

Also, there’s no evidence that circulating spike proteins have any toxic effects whatsoever

It seems like the people who push natural immunity only look at the benefit. The benefit may be marginally better. The cost are vastly different. The “natural vaccine” kills about 1% of the people who take it. Making it the most deadly vaccine since the old smallpox vaccines from the 1800s. Nearly 10% of all deaths in the 20-29 age group in the past few months are due to people getting their immunity naturally. It’s such a bad wager.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (11/15/21 03:54 PM)


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d] * 1
    #27544495 - 11/15/21 03:49 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Imagine trying to explain rna viruses to someone with strong opinions about vaccines at this stage of the pandemic



? I don't have 'strong opinions about vaccines' in general (I get my tetanus shots for example), and the vaccines we're talking about are mRNA vaccines... I just take issue with people thinking the risk analysis is cut and dry, while disparaging any viewpoints that aren't supportive of vaccine mandates.




The risk analysis is cut and dry. The outcomes for infection are far worse in every age demographic. vaccine skeptics are worried about the 1 in 20,000 chance of myocarditis with the vaccine, and would rather take the 1 in 8 chance of myocarditis from covid as was seen in a study of infected college athletes. It’s mind boggling the disconnect

This is what covid induced myocarditis looks like in action


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (11/15/21 03:52 PM)


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544503 - 11/15/21 03:55 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
It wasn’t easy. Had to figure out the molecular weight of a strand of mRNA that encodes for the spike protein then used avagadros number to get the number of actual molecules in a 50 microgram dose of the vaccine. The answer is about a trillion mRNA molecules. That translates directly into 1 trillion spike proteins. 

In an average covid infection a person has a viral load of about 10-100 billion copies of the virus or degenerate viral material, with about 30 spike proteins per virus.





No offense, but I'd rather see a proper source? But thank you for taking the time to calculate and come to an honest conclusion. But how did you factor how often a vaccinated person will be boosted, and how often an unvaccinated will be reinfected? It sounds like, from your calculations, that boosters every 3-6 months may result in substantially more spike proteins over a lifetime. Whether this is harmful or not is another question. 


Quote:

koods said:
Of course the major difference is that nearly all the vaccine action happens in your arm muscle while the virus produces spikes in cells all over your body




I've only seen claims that this is true, no data. The only data I did see was that japanese study, where it did flow freely through mice, but they gave them a ridiculously high dose (greater than what a human recieves). It did spread throughout the body though.


Quote:

koods said:
It seems like the people who push natural immunity only look at the benefit. The benefit may be marginally better. The cost are vastly different. The “natural vaccine” kills about 1% of the people who take it. Making it the most deadly vaccine since the old smallpox vaccines from the 1800s. Nearly 10% of all deaths in the 20-29 age group in the past few months are due to people getting their immunity naturally. It’s such a bad wager.



To the contrary, I feel that people who push vaccines overlook that fact their solution relies on continual boosting, which has an unknown risk and effectiveness, and it may not prevent some other COVID related side effects, like mental issues. There is some data to suggest that probability of side effects increase with the second dose - if this trend continues, what might the 10th dose look like? There is just a lot of unknowns in terms of what the risk profile really is.

When adjusting appropriately for my own demographic, my risk is much less than 1%. Last I checked it was like 1 in 37,000. I have no comorbidites, and am in the same 20-29 demographic. Of course, the closer one nears an 'at risk' demograhic, the more vaccinating makes sense.

At least with natural immunity, the risk is easier (imo) to determine numerically, and it may confer stronger, longer lasting and/or more generalized immunity. It doesn't make me an anti vaxxer and I  believe if you feel differently about the risk reward you have every right, I don't discriminate against vaccinated people or look down on them.


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544509 - 11/15/21 03:59 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The risk analysis is cut and dry. The outcomes for infection are far worse in every age demographic. vaccine skeptics are worried about the 1 in 20,000 chance of myocarditis with the vaccine, and would rather take the 1 in 8 chance of myocarditis from covid as was seen in a study of infected college athletes. It’s mind boggling the disconnect

This is what covid induced myocarditis looks like in action




How can you say it's cut and dry, when we don't even know the adverse event probability of taking your 6th booster? You realize the vaccination solution may entail boosters every 3-6 months, indefinitely, else you risk COVID, right? It's a very weird risk proposition either way. If you plan to live ten more years, that's 15-30 boosters to stay 'topped off' and keep symptomatic COVID risk at bay. If you miss a beat, you're (presumably) exposed to normal COVID risk. Or if there's a 'vaccine breaking' variant, you're even worse off. And from what I've seen so far from adverse events, it looks like the odds of an adverse advent increase for each booster (i.e, for example first booster has say x% risk, the next one has 2x% - totally made up numbers but hopefully you catch my drift, after 10 boosters it may not look good).

Compounding on this is the spike protein issue, and the incomplete coverage they may offer. They may not stop any or all 'long COVID' issues, the spike proteins may be harmful, or the may not sufficiently reduce reproduction of COVID (so you'd be hit with the spike proteins each time you're infected, to some degree). It's just not cut and dry.

I'd like to see a source that concludes the risk for myocarditis from COVID is 1 in 8.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 04:02 PM)


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27544515 - 11/15/21 04:01 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Quote:

koods said:
There’s not going to be any sterilizing immunity with covid unless you get regular boosters. There’s no such thing as natural long term neutralizing immunity to coronaviruses. Every single human coronavirus has demonstrated the ability to reinfect usually within a year or two. The only possible way to get there is through regular boosters that will maintain sufficient levels of circulating antibodies.



I didn't say 'long term sterilizing immunity'. But clearly the longer the window of sterilizing immunity, the better. So far it appears natural immunity provides superior sterilizing properties for several months. If the vaccines provide no or little sterilizing immunity, this undoubtedly a huge benefit to natural immunity in terms of reducing spread. Natural immunity also seems to be more generalized. See
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

You seem to imply that COVID vaccines may confer sterilizing immunity, this is counter to everything I've read. Can you please provide a source?





Sure. Here’s Israel’s data on infection rates for people in different vax category. Dark green is with a booster and as you can see almost nobody is even getting infected after they’ve had their booster. These numbers show over 96% effectiveness at preventing infection. That’s just about as good as you get with any vaccine. Light blue is vaccinated ?which included the previously infected)



Where’s you evidence that you get anything even close to this with natural infection. Getting covid twice is a hobby for shroomerites. Natural immunity doesn’t seem very impressive in the real world


Edited by koods (11/15/21 04:15 PM)


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544519 - 11/15/21 04:02 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

No offense, but I'd rather see a proper source?



No offense but I couldn’t find one so I had to do the math myself which you are welcome to do.

I did your research.

Here’s the numbers you need:

Average m.w. mRNA nucleotide: 400
Nucleotides in vaccine mRNA: 3800
mRNA dose in vaccine 30ug -100 μg

Have at it


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (11/15/21 04:09 PM)


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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544531 - 11/15/21 04:10 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:

Sure. Here’s Israel’s data on infection rates for people in different vax category. Dark green is with a booster and as you can see almost nobody is even getting infected after they’ve had their booster. These numbers show over 96% effectiveness at preventing infection. That’s just about as good as you get with any vaccine. Light blue is vaccinated ?which included the previously infected)





Unfortunately that data isn't very useful without understanding how they were testing and who was subjected to it. If it was only 'symptomatic' individuals, then it wouldn't be saying much at all for infection rates.


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