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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27543402 - 11/14/21 05:18 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Quote:

koods said:
That article isn’t talking about sterilizing immunity, which is what you are talking about. Sterilizing immunity is the kind that prevents reinfection. Sterilizing immunity fades quickly for both groups and depends primarily on circulating antibodies. That article is talking about the ability of the body to mount a defense when you are reinfected.



I'm not necessarily talking about sterilizing immunity. I'm comparing the immunity profiles between vaxxed and unvaxxed. The study on natural immunity did state however that natural immunity conferred better protection against infection, which is equivelant to stating it provides better sterilizing immunity.




There’s no difference between the rate of loss of neutralizing antibodies in both groups. Infected people may start at a higher level and have a slightly more diverse set of antibodies, but they end up the same. The only way to protect against infections in the long term will be occasional boosters. The differences in immunity between vaccinated and unvaccinated in no way can justify choosing to get covid over vaccination. The covid strategy requires getting infected with a virus that infects cells all over your body. Spike proteins exploding out of heart muscles. Loss of lung capacity even in mild cases. Who knows what the long term consequences. Why would you choose that? It’s nuts. People are not being rational


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27543413 - 11/14/21 05:27 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Quote:

koods said:
That article isn’t talking about sterilizing immunity, which is what you are talking about. Sterilizing immunity is the kind that prevents reinfection. Sterilizing immunity fades quickly for both groups and depends primarily on circulating antibodies. That article is talking about the ability of the body to mount a defense when you are reinfected.



I'm not necessarily talking about sterilizing immunity. I'm comparing the immunity profiles between vaxxed and unvaxxed. The study on natural immunity did state however that natural immunity conferred better protection against infection, which is equivelant to stating it provides better sterilizing immunity.




There’s no difference between the rate of loss of neutralizing antibodies in both groups. Infected people may start at a higher level and have a slightly more diverse set of antibodies, but they end up the same. The only way to protect against infections in the long term will be occasional boosters. The differences in immunity between vaccinated and unvaccinated in no way can justify choosing to get covid over vaccination. The covid strategy requires getting infected with a virus that infects cells all over your body. Spike proteins exploding out of heart muscles. Loss of lung capacity even in mild cases. Who knows what the long term consequences. Why would you choose that? It’s nuts. People are not being rational



Do you have a source that shows there's no difference in this rate of loss? The vaccine also causes spike protein madness, and it requires it every 6 months to avoid COVID. Antibodies in vaxxed and unvaxxed may trend toward the same level, but the sources I've provided show that natural immunity provides higher levels for longer.

Further, I believe I've probably already had it. At the end of the day the risk is so marginal it's not even worth worrying about. We don't know the long term consequences of continual boosters either. I'm inclined to go with the simpler solution here, given that the risk of adverse events in both cases is very very rare.

Additionally, if it provides better sterilizing immunity as well, it can be argued I'm contributing to spread and death more by not having a natural immune response.

This study shows natural immunity to coronaviruses may last 17 months, while the vaccines have been shown to drop off after 6:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00219-6/fulltext


Edited by junk_f00d (11/14/21 05:32 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27543442 - 11/14/21 06:03 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The vaccine also causes spike protein madness,




Lol wut. Nearly all the spike proteins are produced in cells in the arm and that’s where they stay until they are destroyed. Infection results in spike proteins being made all over the body, circulating in the blood and lymph and at numbers orders of magnitude higher than the vaccine. If you don’t like spike proteins, then infection is not the route for you.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27543449 - 11/14/21 06:11 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

The vaccine also causes spike protein madness,




Lol wut. Nearly all the spike proteins are produced in cells in the arm and that’s where they stay until they are destroyed. Infection results in spike proteins being made all over the body, circulating in the blood and lymph and at numbers orders of magnitude higher than the vaccine. If you don’t like spike proteins, then infection is not the route for you.



Then how does stuff like this happen:
https://www.citizensjournal.us/first-autopsy-of-dead-person-vaccinated-for-covid-found-to-contain-spike-proteins-in-every-bodily-organ/

I understand that's how they were intended to work, but how are they actually working? How many spike proteins are leaving the injection site?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d] * 2
    #27543492 - 11/14/21 06:49 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

The source for that article is inforwars. The infowars article says it was viral rna was found all over his body. It’s like the telephone game where each time the story is told it changes.

The article claims that he was loaded with viral rna and blamed the vaccine. But the patient was actually infected with sars-cov2 when he died and he had not been fully vaccinated. He got sick before his second dose.

Quote:

The scientific report out of Germany published by the International Journal of Infectious Diseases in June examined the autopsy of an 86-year-old man who had received a single dose of the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine but died 4 weeks later after becoming infected with the virus by a nearby patient at a hospital.




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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d] * 2
    #27543496 - 11/14/21 06:52 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I like how citizens journal doesn't link to the study, but to infowars  and from there to study, classic goobers.


Edited by falcon (11/14/21 06:53 PM)


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27543507 - 11/14/21 07:08 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The source for that article is inforwars. The infowars article says it was viral rna was found all over his body. It’s like the telephone game where each time the story is told it changes.

The article claims that he was loaded with viral rna and blamed the vaccine. But the patient was actually infected with sars-cov2 when he died and he had not been fully vaccinated. He got sick before his second dose.

Quote:

The scientific report out of Germany published by the International Journal of Infectious Diseases in June examined the autopsy of an 86-year-old man who had received a single dose of the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine but died 4 weeks later after becoming infected with the virus by a nearby patient at a hospital.






Here's the real one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8051011/, I had just heard about this before and sent the first link I found. The implications still stand whether infected or not though, but in this case it's hard to tell due to the age of the individual. In other words, if vaccinated individuals are still producing spike proteins from SARS-COV-2, that's not good. I've tried finding sources on this and evidence to support that the spike proteins stay local, but it's been fruitless so far.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/14/21 07:09 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d] * 1
    #27543533 - 11/14/21 07:40 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

There’s nothing in that article about spike proteins. It’s about viral RNA in a man who died in the early stages of an acute sars-cov2 infection. He died from a unrelated bacterial infection.

The vaccines give a fixed dose of a small segment of viral RNA. It can’t take over the body. That requires the entire virus that includes instructions for replicating itself. The RNA in the vaccine lacks any capability of being replicated


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods] * 1
    #27543707 - 11/14/21 11:35 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Those who say they prefer to get Covid rather than the vaccine as a way to gain immunity forget to consider long Covid. It isn't simply a matter of getting Covid and then recovering and having natural immunity but you will have to contend with having various symptoms including (copy and pasted from the link below):

  • Fatigue
  • Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing
  • Cough
  • Joint pain
  • Chest pain
  • Memory, concentration or sleep problems
  • Muscle pain or headache
  • Fast or pounding heartbeat
  • Loss of smell or taste
  • Depression or anxiety
  • Fever
  • Dizziness when you stand
  • Worsened symptoms after physical or mental activities


https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Warrk]
    #27543722 - 11/15/21 12:04 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

They’re not going to get long covid. They have extremely good immune systems.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Warrk] * 4
    #27543821 - 11/15/21 05:18 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Warrk said:
Those who say they prefer to get Covid rather than the vaccine as a way to gain immunity forget to consider long Covid. It isn't simply a matter of getting Covid and then recovering and having natural immunity but you will have to contend with having various symptoms including (copy and pasted from the link below):

  • Fatigue
  • Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing
  • Cough
  • Joint pain
  • Chest pain
  • Memory, concentration or sleep problems
  • Muscle pain or headache
  • Fast or pounding heartbeat
  • Loss of smell or taste
  • Depression or anxiety
  • Fever
  • Dizziness when you stand
  • Worsened symptoms after physical or mental activities


https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351




Person 1- "I want to get the virus itself, that way I'll have stronger immunity."

Person 2- "To what?"

Person 1- "The virus that I already caught!"


If people don't care about getting the virus in the first place why do they care about having a stronger immunity to the virus that they will purposefully have no immunizity to when they contract it? Many of these people  just seem incapable of anything more than 1-step problem solving.

Long Covid is an absolute bitch, anecdotally out of the maybe 20 people I know who caught confirmed Covid now at least 4 of them have had their lives completely altered by it.

My 31 year old (healthy, no underlying conditions) cousin who got hospitalized last year still has lung issues, every couple months she gets knocked down with nauseau and vertigo/fatigue and can't work or even leave the house for weeks. My wife's aunt had fluid drained from her head 6 months post-infection because she's had some systemic inflammatory issue triggered by Covid that doctors can't diagnose.

The conservative estimate from what I've read seems to be around 5-10% of people with mild or asymptomatic cases will get long Covid, 25-50% will get long-covid if you include mental health issues and fatigue persisting for a period post-infection.

I'm someone who takes dumb risks all the time and wasn't too concerned with catching Covid, my main fear was the high chance of losing my taste/smell for an unknown period because food is awesome and that'd be depressing. I got vaccinated because it was an easy risk assessment and I like living in a society that works together to keep things functioning, and actually looks out for the most vulberable.

Many on the anti-vax and anti-mandate side use flawed and disingenuous arguments to justify the fact that they simply don't give a fuck about anyone but themeselves, but they think they should still be entitled to soak up all the benefits of society. The more I listen to the arguments from that side the closer I get to being fully pro-mandate.


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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: feevers] * 1
    #27543835 - 11/15/21 05:44 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

:whathesaid:

Always a voice of reason feevers, I enjoy reading your posts.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: feevers] * 1
    #27544265 - 11/15/21 12:54 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
The more I listen to the arguments from that side the closer I get to being fully pro-mandate.




I know I'm tired of hearing the same stupid arguments from people about 'their rights' whilst ignoring mine and the broader communities.


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27544284 - 11/15/21 01:13 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
There’s nothing in that article about spike proteins. It’s about viral RNA in a man who died in the early stages of an acute sars-cov2 infection. He died from a unrelated bacterial infection.

The vaccines give a fixed dose of a small segment of viral RNA. It can’t take over the body. That requires the entire virus that includes instructions for replicating itself. The RNA in the vaccine lacks any capability of being replicated



Can you show me proof that spike proteins stay where they're supposed to? That's a very serious concern, and I don't believe Pfizer did any animal studies on the matter. This link discusses this, but provides no answers as it claims no one knows yet:
https://regenerativemc.com/biodistribution-of-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/

I recall skimming the Japanese study and can source if you want. The tables are all in English, and they do find the spike proteins do not remain local.

At any rate, that authors behind the autopsy paper conclude that this implies the vaccines don't provide sterilizing immunity, or didn't in this case (which has been a point I've been trying to repeatedly make). Do you disagree with this?


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: feevers]
    #27544289 - 11/15/21 01:17 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Warrk said:
Those who say they prefer to get Covid rather than the vaccine as a way to gain immunity forget to consider long Covid. It isn't simply a matter of getting Covid and then recovering and having natural immunity but you will have to contend with having various symptoms including (copy and pasted from the link below):

  • Fatigue
  • Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing
  • Cough
  • Joint pain
  • Chest pain
  • Memory, concentration or sleep problems
  • Muscle pain or headache
  • Fast or pounding heartbeat
  • Loss of smell or taste
  • Depression or anxiety
  • Fever
  • Dizziness when you stand
  • Worsened symptoms after physical or mental activities


https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351



Most people don't experience this at all, the vast majority never even knew they had COVID, and for a fair comparison you'd need to compare risk of covid (including both short and long term risk) to the total risk profile of vaccine plus indefinite boosters (right now this is an undefined risk, but data seems to support the idea that the risk increases as the booster count does). With the booster solution, it's worth pointing out that you're still at risk for COVID too, especially newer variants. Also, a lot of people already have natural immunity, so subjecting them to both risk profiles seems senseless to me.

So you're options are either accept COVID risk, or accept risk of indefinite boosters (which still includes COVID risk since efficacy wanes). I would rather live in a world where I didn't have to face either risk, I don't know what's better, but I don't think it's strictly illogical to just bite the bullet here and take the COVID risk over the indefinite boosters solution. If you already have natural immunity, and aren't at risk, I don't see why you'd get vaccinated (until you're at risk or something significantly changes your risk equation). If you have no immunity (from vaccinations or natural exposure), then it should be up to you, and I think there's logic to both.

I think you have to be ignorant to think the risk profiles are completely known on either side (for both yourself and society at large), so disparaging one for their choices doesn't seem right to me (and similarly, neither does a mandate).

Lastly, one thing I want to point is that vaccines were designed and studied with reduction of clinical, symptomatic disease in mind. They may not prevent brain damage or some of these other long COVID effects, so to immediately assume that they do reduce your odds for all of these symptoms as well seems to wrong to me (especially when they don't confer sterilizing immunity). Admittedly, I don't hear vaccinated complaining about loss of smell, but this is a gray area on the whole imo, and to assume they provide this additional protection comes off as unfounded.


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 01:31 PM)


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: feevers]
    #27544292 - 11/15/21 01:20 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Many on the anti-vax and anti-mandate side use flawed and disingenuous arguments to justify the fact that they simply don't give a fuck about anyone but themeselves, but they think they should still be entitled to soak up all the benefits of society. The more I listen to the arguments from that side the closer I get to being fully pro-mandate.



If you disagree with what I'm saying, can you address it completely, logically and directly? Koods likes to just cherry pick one little bit and disregard the rest, and ignore my requests for sources or numerical clarification.

It's not as if vaccine is risk is 1 + 1 = 2 and COVID risk is 2 + 2 = 4 and us 'antivaxxers' are arguing that 4 < 2. I see logic to both sides here (and for as long as not getting vaccinated has logic to it, I disagree with mandates and forcing people to take them).


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 01:39 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d] * 2
    #27544315 - 11/15/21 01:39 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Quote:

koods said:
There’s nothing in that article about spike proteins. It’s about viral RNA in a man who died in the early stages of an acute sars-cov2 infection. He died from a unrelated bacterial infection.

The vaccines give a fixed dose of a small segment of viral RNA. It can’t take over the body. That requires the entire virus that includes instructions for replicating itself. The RNA in the vaccine lacks any capability of being replicated



Can you show me proof that spike proteins stay where they're supposed to? That's a very serious concern, and I don't believe Pfizer did any animal studies on the matter. This link discusses this, but provides no answers as it claims no one knows yet:
https://regenerativemc.com/biodistribution-of-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/

I recall skimming the Japanese study and can source if you want. The tables are all in English, and they do find the spike proteins do not remain local.

At any rate, that authors behind the autopsy paper conclude that this implies the vaccines don't provide sterilizing immunity, or didn't in this case (which has been a point I've been trying to repeatedly make). Do you disagree with this?




I don’t believe you when you say you’re concerned about spike proteins in the vaccine, because you show no concern about the spike proteins that are made in cells all over your body when you get infected and in numbers a million times greater.

again your link says absolutely nothing about spike proteins. The word spike doesn’t even appear once in that entire page. I don’t understand why you keep thinking articles that don’t even mention spike proteins are about spike proteins and it’s getting pretty hard to take you seriously at this point.

Quote:

At any rate, that authors behind the autopsy paper conclude that this implies the vaccines don't provide sterilizing immunity, or didn't in this case (which has been a point I've been trying to repeatedly make). Do you disagree with this?




Please don’t read scientific papers with the idea that the authors are implying anything. They aren’t. This seems to be the number one error I see with people who reference academic papers. The conclusions made are explicitly stated.

Their explicit conclusion was that PARTIAL vaccination does not provide sterilizing immunity. There’s nothing groundbreaking there.

There’s a reason nearly every covid vaccine and many other vaccines require multiple doses, and that’s because neutralizing antibodies are only produced in the presence of the antigen and it takes a week or more for the cells that make antibodies to mature. For the first week of your first infection, or your first vax shot, your body is building the cellular factories that will eventually  make antibodies.

If  you are no longer infected or the contents of the vaccine are gone before the body can make antibodies then you won’t make many antibodies. Antibodies will only be made en mass when you have mature memory cells that have been activated by the presence of the antigen. This is why people need two or more shots with a decent time gap in between (some of these cells take months to fully mature) and why people who clear the virus quickly and have mild or asymptomatic cases have very low levels of circulating antibodies. If you are someone who wanted to rely on your natural immunity and compare it to the vaccines, if you were sick for less than a week you should consider yourself partially vaccinated.


Edited by koods (11/15/21 02:05 PM)


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: koods]
    #27544320 - 11/15/21 01:44 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I don’t believe you when you say you’re concerned about spike proteins in the vaccine, because you show no concern about the spike proteins that are made in cells all over your body when you get infected and in numbers a million times greater.



With natural exposure, I contract COVID, make spike proteins (boo) and maintain immunity for longer than the shots. With the shots, if the spike proteins in them are harmful, the solution on the table right now involves a booster every 6 months, which may result in greater spike protein amounts than COVID exposure. Additionally, if the vaccines don't confer sterilizing immunity, it may not prevent COVID from producing spike proteins.

So natural exposure may result in lower lifetime spike protein amounts.

Can you supply me with a source that confirms your claim about vaccines producing less spike proteins?


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 01:50 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: junk_f00d] * 1
    #27544330 - 11/15/21 01:51 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Except the virus doesn't just force your cells to make spike protein, it hijacks them to produce whole virus.


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Coronavirus Chat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27544333 - 11/15/21 01:55 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Except the virus doesn't just force your cells to make spike protein, it hijacks them to produce whole virus.



Right, what are you implying? It is worth pointing out, again, that the vaccines may still permit this as well, especially with newer variants. I would imagine to a lesser degree, though I haven't seen any data on this, but I have seen data suggesting the viral loads are the same, with vaccinated clearing up 20% sooner (which implies reproduction of the virus is still happening to a similar degree, I'd think).


Edited by junk_f00d (11/15/21 03:25 PM)


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