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CreonAntigone
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Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon 1
#27543595 - 11/14/21 08:54 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hoffman, Wasson and Ruck proposed the hypothesis that the Greek cult of the Eleusinian mysteries involved the use of ergot as an entheogen. This theory we may as well consider proven, since now genetic evidence supports it: ergot DNA was found in cups located at the temples of Eleusis. Thus we now know without a shadow of a doubt the Greeks did use ergot in their rituals. The question is, how?
The drink that culminated the cult and initiated the great vision was known as kykeon. There is some confusion as to what this drink consists of. There is reference to it in Homer as a peasant's drink consisting of fermented barley flour and other ingredients, like cheese, onion, herbs and sometimes wine. Another recipe is found in the myths associated with the cult: the goddess Persephone accepts a kykeon drink made of barley flour and pennyroyal, a type of mint (explicitly, it is stated there is no wine in it). Some scholars have stated that there was no entheogen in the mysteries since this was just a simple barley drink.
Not so fast! We have to understand the state of agriculture at the time to understand what exactly this kykeon would be like. First off, this was before there was a general understanding of the ergot fungus and certainly before there were any tried and true methods of separating ergot sclerotia from normal barley. Thus we can assume that barley flour contained some degree of ergot spores. Some of these blackened ergot sclerotia will have found their way into the kykeon. This would probably be true of any possible kykeon made at the time. In fact, it would be pretty absurd to suggest otherwise: Greek peasants lacked the knowledge or motivation to filter the ergot from their barley. Surely if there wasn't a pandemic of gangrene, we can assume the amount of ergot in the grain was a relatively safe level. However, fermenting would change things: one would be giving the fungus water and time to grow and expand. Even the description of kykeon described by sources like Homer would've been a potential way to grow the ergot fungus if some of it was already present in the flour.
Thus, even the peasant drink kykeon was very likely to be psychoactive. This is why there is confusion among scholars: kykeon is considered an intoxicating drink yet there is no intoxicating ingredient listed. I propose the intoxicating ingredient was the ergot spores that would've naturally been found in any barley flour at the time. The process of making kykeon was essentially to hydrate the flour and leave it to ferment. In all likelihood, the fungus would take advantage of these resources and perhaps even make alkaloids in this environment. This process should look familiar to any of you that have grown mushrooms. They used hydrated barley flour instead of rice flour, but one can see some similarities to the 'PF TEK' used to grow mushrooms. They lacked modern sterilization, but that may have not been as necessary if families were making kykeon for a long time. Likely peasants had a 'kykeon starter' with an established ergot culture similar to how sourdough is made.
If this is true, it means ergot was actually a much wider-used intoxicant than commonly supposed. Many may have consumed homemade ergoted beverages all the time.
But this does not solve the mystery. The mystery also makes us propose the question, 'what made the kykeon used in the cult so different?' If kykeon was used all the time, surely it would not cause any special vision. Someone who drank kykeon every day would certainly not be struck with any great vision. If we think about this mycologically, it makes sense. Peasant kykeon was made without any great understanding of the fungus. Unless there was a serious infestation, flour would contain some ergot spores but not a huge amount. Alkaloid production would be highly variable and not that impressive. Peasants may not have understood that the blackened grains were the psychoactive ones; if they did, they likely did not have access to enough ergoted grain to make an incredibly powerful drink. Thus peasant kykeon was lacking in some ways.
My proposal is that the difference with the kykeon used in the mystery is that the priests of Eleusis used much more developed, sophisticated cultures and far more ergot spores. Ergot is known to vary extremely highly in alkaloid production in culture, not merely by species but also in strain. Some scholars have proposed that the ergot used in the ceremony was not C. Purpurea but rather C. Paspali. Whether or not this is true I think is irrelevant, since what is more important than the species is whether the priests successfully isolated an alkaloid-producing strain. I propose that what made the different for the kykeon used in the cult was, essentially, a lot of mycology: the priests likely made a lot of kykeon, testing different cultures, refining and developing them until their drink had the desired effect.
We might speculate that even if the peasants did not realize the black grains contained the proper starter for the psychoactive effects, the priests almost certainly did. It is said that the main floor of the temple of Eleusis served a as a 'sacred threshing floor'. The reason the priests would want a sacred threshing floor is obvious: they took the sclerotia and used them to start new cultures of kykeon. If the priests really did develop an understanding of the fungus, they could essentially control the total level of ergot in the grain. They could remove the blackened sclerotia, thus preventing any peasants from being able to make kykeon as good or as potent as the priests did. Further, even moreso than controlling the output of sclerotia, the priests controlled the 'sacred cultures'. If the priests really did do a lot of extensive mycology in their temples it means they had extremely sophisticated ergot cultures that produced precisely the alkaloids they want. I propose that THIS is the reason we don't see many of the common dangerous ergot side-effects associated with the ceremony.
These sacred cultures - the 'kykeon of eleusis' - may have stayed relatively the same for thousands of years if the priests watched over them well, spreading them from fermenting cup to fermenting cup just like how people do grain to grain transfers today. These cultures, far more than peasant kykeon, could be expected to produce powerful psychoactive effects. Perhaps the priests even developed the skill the distinguish dangerous from non-dangerous strains through testing. Albert Hoffman argues that some ergot alkaloids are primarily vasoconstrictive while others lack as much circulatory action and are primarily psychoactive. Presumably, through thousands of years of testing the priests of Eleusis may have discovered the strains of ergot that were extremely psychoactive with relatively few side-effects. This is why I said the species does not necessarily matter, because one could probably find a suitable strain whether the species be Purpurea or Paspali. The question is merely how the fungus has been developed, not where it started.
That the kykeon of Eleusis represent isolated fungal cultures is supported by a historical incident: a certain Athenian aristocrat named Alcibiades was accused of 'profaning the mysteries' by celebrating them in a private home. Scholars have long debated what this even means; some have speculated his profanation involved using sacred words from the ceremony. But, does a young aristocrat really care about a bunch of chants and words? My interpretation of this famous incident is that Alcibiades somehow ended up using his connections to get his hands on a sacred kykeon from the temple of Eleusis. This he consumed with his friends in his home as part of a party. This was considered extremely offensive to the Greeks, for good reason. He took something sacred and turned it into a party drug.
If my theory is true, the Eleusinian mysteries represent one of the most sophisticated mycological events ever seen in history. Even without an understanding of what a fungus is, the ancient Greeks were able to isolate ergot and develop cultures that served as a foundation for their religion.
My theory is testable. One can easily reproduce kykeon. Here is what one would need to test: if ergot spores are added to hydrated barley flour in the form of kykeon, does it make alkaloids in that form? I think the answer is, 'sometimes'. That is, some cultures will produce a lot and some produce a little. I think the priests of Eleusis used trial and error to find and develop the best ergot cultures. This theory could be thoroughly tested by grinding ergot sclerotia, mixing with barley flour and reproducing the fermentation process, then observing whether any alkaloids were made.
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bakedbeings
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: CreonAntigone]
#27544241 - 11/15/21 12:37 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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wrong hole
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el gordo
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: bakedbeings] 1
#27545086 - 11/16/21 12:39 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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been researching on this subject for some time and what i could gather is that the were using magic mushrooms from different species, and had been used/cultivated extensively across the whole world in the old ages, u only have to look at antique art to see it... some egiptyan and persian clear cubensis representations from 3000 AC



greek representation of a man picking the fruits from the tree of life, clearly mushrooms to me...
Edited by el gordo (11/16/21 05:59 AM)
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el gordo
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: el gordo]
#27545091 - 11/16/21 12:50 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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here u can see some indian brahman representqtions on the left, indeed are the same guy with psilocybin mushrooms over his head that the egyptians were representing, on the right u can see the same representation of the guy with mushroom over the head from a monumental cross in the north of spain that is supposed to be medieval (ca.4000 years apart from egiptian representations), also old churches from the 10th to the 18th century are full of mushroom sculptures and representations here if u look carefully
Edited by el gordo (11/16/21 12:54 AM)
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el gordo
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: el gordo]
#27545093 - 11/16/21 01:02 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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one usual greek's encoding for the the mushrooms in their art, was representing it as lances/spears in the hands of warriors, also the greek name semilanceata ( ces't mi lance -its my lance ) could be related
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el gordo
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: el gordo]
#27545113 - 11/16/21 02:09 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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but there's lots of human generations prior to that, and this knowledge/usage about magic musrooms has been there almost since the beginning, i've found also lots of evidences that the knowledge that we can see nowadays in the traditional use of magic mushrooms in south america was widespread all over the world from the prehistoric times until the 18th-19th century...probably this use had been trendy and popular in waves on and off all over across our history.
Edited by el gordo (11/16/21 02:11 AM)
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el gordo
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: el gordo]
#27545121 - 11/16/21 02:27 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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here's some prehistoric artwork ive found near where i live in northern spain where magic mushrooms doesnt grow nowadays in maybe 150 km, also found the same sculptures in coastal zones near the beach...look and judge for yourself that cubensis and semilanceatas where profously distributed everywhere in the mediterranean area. This abundance of art representing them from many periods make me think that the psilocybe cubensis, semilanceata, etc...consumption and cultivation is nothing new under the sun....
    
will post more pics about my research later....
Edited by el gordo (11/16/21 02:43 AM)
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Guerrilla
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: el gordo]
#27545142 - 11/16/21 03:03 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very interesting stuff both OP and el gordo.
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Jamoo
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: Guerrilla]
#27545821 - 11/16/21 01:51 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Great theory and that’s some interesting research 🧐
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CreonAntigone
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: Jamoo]
#27550288 - 11/19/21 07:18 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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If the Elusinian mysteries contained ergot, what they amounted to was an inoculation of the whole population. The priests knew about ergot, the populace did not know as much. The whole populace comes to a ceremony and ingests a brew tainted with a fungus. Therefore, the Elusinian priests took on a gigantic resposibility: control of the whole microbiome of the whole populace! Essentially it was like if we all shared in the same kitchen.
It is not unthinkable to suggest that later, Christians might have adopted the same practice. After all, there are many many reports of 'Eucharistic miracles' - of the administration of the eucharist causing visionary experiences that are very similar to those caused by ergot.
It was said only the order of St. Anthony knew the cure to ergot.
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CreonAntigone
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: CreonAntigone]
#27550295 - 11/19/21 07:25 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
el gordo said: been researching on this subject for some time and what i could gather is that the were using magic mushrooms from different species, and had been used/cultivated extensively across the whole world in the old ages, u only have to look at antique art to see it... some egiptyan and persian clear cubensis representations from 3000 AC



greek representation of a man picking the fruits from the tree of life, clearly mushrooms to me...
I wouldn't say those are necessarily cubensis. They could be cubensis surely, but I'm not sure if there's any evidence of its use in the region - I'm not saying there isn't either; I haven't looked into cubesis specifically. What is the evidence suggesting the mushroom was found in the region at that time?
Those easily could be the fruit bodies of ergot. Once ergot fruits it makes little mushrooms that could be very similar to all of that art.
Example picture:

Honestly those hats look way more like ergot to me than cubensis. The bottom looks like the sclerotia and the fruit bodies are formed in a similar cluster.
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CreonAntigone
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: CreonAntigone]
#27550302 - 11/19/21 07:31 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think egypt using ergot religiously is way more plausible. Why? They grew grain. If you grow grain, you have an infinite supply of ergot. Mushrooms are more seasonal. It was far easier for them to control the inoculation of grain with ergot vs mushrooms with anything.
Now, if you want to look at credible evidence of European use of mushrooms: Irish shamans used amanita and the liberty cap absolutely, and they went to the forest at times so surely they grew and/or cultured the fungus in some way.
Edited by CreonAntigone (11/19/21 07:33 PM)
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CreonAntigone
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: CreonAntigone]
#27550646 - 11/20/21 04:14 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
greek representation of a man picking the fruits from the tree of life, clearly mushrooms to me...
Looking at this picture again I'd have to say: this one definitely looks like ergot.
The caps are not smooth. Psilocybe means 'smooth cap' for a reason. They look like ergot stromata to me.
Let us see some more beautiful fruiting ergot pictures for comparison.


The ergot fruiting body starts as the sclerotia stage and only later forms stromata after overwintering - the stromata, those mushroom-looking bodies, release spores. As you can see, some stromata are smooth, some are bumpy. This is much more consistent with what we see in these photos. Also, all the stromata stem from the single 'grain' of ergot. In my opinion, most of these Egyptian pictures strongly suggest ergot due to the way there appears to be the grain/sclerotia depicted at the bottom. But perhaps it could be substrate too. Ergot is just a suggestion for those photos and we probably can't rule out psilocybe in them.
All rough caps depicted cannot be psilocybe, they are probably ergot. The photo from ancient greece that you posted is very clearly ergot.
The bumps on the fruit heads look exactly like some specimens of fruiting ergot. When ergot fruits, the stromata extend from the sclerotia and become covered in sexual spores.

Ergot is not in the same fungal division as psilocybe, it is very separated from all mushrooms: it is in the division Ascomycota, as opposed to mushrooms which belong to basidiomycota. This division is characterized by a fundamental separation in how their spores work. Ergot, like all fungi in ascomycota, makes asexual spores called conidia and sexual spores known as ascospores. Conidia are made before fruiting while ascospores are made only by the fruiting bodies. The sexual ascospores appear on the stroma: those are the bumps that are present on them.
What appears in that picture from ancient greece looks to me like: ergot stromata abundantly covered in sexual spores. 'Tree of life', as in, fully mature ergot.
Image C shows a closeup of the 'bumps', the ascospores. I am not certain how large the asexual spores - the conidia - are, but probably much smaller.

Some Christian accounts of the Eleusinian mysteries - happening from what might be considered an outsider's view, without a deep understanding of the tradition - portrayed the climax of the ceremonies as the presentation of a 'single piece of grain'. What if that grain was not a grain at all, but what looked like a grain: a piece of ergot, fruiting? This would release ascospores into the air, over the whole congregation. The entire population would be 'inoculated' with the strongest and most mature form of ergot spores, in a big room with limited ventilation, a sacred chamber. As a result, the process of initiation would involve thoroughly infecting the entire population with ergot.
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el gordo
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: CreonAntigone]
#27550668 - 11/20/21 05:26 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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woah yes!!! never seen ergot before but the greek picture seems clearly like it is. if u look closer under the ergot there's a wheat field depicted! so this picture reaffirms your theory , for the egyptians cattle farming near the nile probably led them to the shrooms
Edited by el gordo (11/20/21 05:30 AM)
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Speeker

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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: el gordo]
#27550675 - 11/20/21 05:44 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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One sees what one expects I guess... 
On some years these are quite common on several wild grasses. These are from 2017 which was such..
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orison
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: Speeker]
#27550693 - 11/20/21 06:13 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ive eaten raw ergot. collected them from grass. like a handful.
All I got was some wavy vision, corners of walls seemed to bend a lot. But other object not morph. Color enhanced. But that was about it.
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el gordo
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: orison]
#27551899 - 11/21/21 01:23 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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CreonAntigone
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: orison]
#27565556 - 12/02/21 01:15 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
el gordo said: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25981985
luxor egyptian cubensis strain
So perhaps the egyptians cultivated the local strains of cubensis? It is quite possible. I do think many of the hats look like cubensis.
My essential theory is that: the role of 'priest' in early religion was merely the role of ... mycologist!
Everywhere in the world it was all the same.
The aztec priests knew where to find Psilocybe Mexicana; they cultivated oliloqui, morning glory, which contains a fungus in the ergot family, producing similar alkaloids. The mazatec shamans knew mushrooms even more than that, knowing several other species alongside Mexicana, calling them all the sacred mushrooms, teonanactl.
The druids, the priests of the gaelic people, knew where to find liberty caps and amanitas.
Everywhere grain was grown so was fungus and ergot, so priests slowly developed a role: to isolate ergot to use in special religious contexts, and to make grain safe for the rest of the contexts.
The christian 'host' develops from Jewish tradition, which always uses unleavened bread for passover. 'Unleavened' means no yeast was added; but that does not preclude inoculation of another, ergot, fungus.
A christian priest, as was the aztec priest or greek priest or mazatec priest, had to be a master of inoculation: they had to introduce the very right fungi into the host. If they didn't, whole scores would be sick.
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Speeker said: On some years these are quite common on several wild grasses. These are from 2017 which was such..

Interesting! If on wild grasses it may not be purpurea.. there are many other claviceps species, it is such a diverse genus. I just recently learned they can infect sedge, Carex. There are special claivceps species that just go on sedge grass. I will put a link to the article, if I find it.
I have read that purpurea can be found on wild grasses but there are several more niche Claviceps species that wild grasses tend to be host to. Purpurea prefers cereal grain. That is not to say it isn't purpurea, because it grows wild nearly everywhere in the world, too. A mycologist better than me would have to distinguish it down by exact species.
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One sees what one expects I guess...
This is a very good point of caution: any attempt to identify fungi from an old picture is probably pretty erroneous! Genetic evidence is better. Moreso than the art, better support for the ergot theory is found in the identification of Claviceps Purpurea DNA in cups at the Mas-Castellar excavation site in spain, in a temple dedicated to the goddess demeter; I linked to the article in a different post. Let me copy-paste what was said there:
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CreonAntigone said: A 2002 study found ergot DNA within chalices in an Eleusinian temple in Spain.
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A surprising fact regards the discovery of fragments of Claviceps purpurea (Fr.) Tul. sclerotia in a temple of the 4th–2nd century BC dedicated to the two Eleusinian Goddesses, Demeter and Persephone, excavated at the Mas Castellar site (Girona, Spain). Ergot sclerotia fragments were found inside a vase along with remains of beer and yeast, and within the dental calculus in a jaw of a 25-yearold man, providing evidence of their being chewed (Juan-Stresserras, 2002). This finding seems to strongly support the hypothesis of ergot as an ingredient of the Eleusinian kykeon.
But unfortunately, I only linked to a secondary article discussing the findings. I have seen the original article of the excavation and would love to really engage with the findings, sink my teeth in (into a big ergot sclerotia?) but it is in spanish. Maybe I will have to brush up on my Spanish. The Juan-Stresserras paper may contain some of the most vital info as to HOW ergot was used. The physical details of the finding suggest two things: one, some of the fermentation occurred alongside yeast. Two, the sclerotia were simply eaten. I guess that would be the simplest way to use ergot.
Quote:
orison said: Ive eaten raw ergot. collected them from grass. like a handful.
All I got was some wavy vision, corners of walls seemed to bend a lot. But other object not morph. Color enhanced. But that was about it.
Thank you for the 'trip report'. I do believe the acute toxicity of ergot is vastly overestimated. Most of the reports of harm from ergot come from chronic long-term exposure to seriously infected grain.
That being said, I am not recommending people go out and eat ergot sclerotia... that being said, the ancient greeks probably did.
Ergot varies wildly, wildly in alkaloid production by strain. Some will produce mostly hallucinogenlike alkaloids. Some will produce only the vasoconstritive severely toxic alkaloid. All the ergot alkaloids have this vasoconstrictive effect, but each alkaloid varies greatly in how strongly they cause it. One can't predict what kind of ergot one is going to get before sinking the tooth in, unfortunately.
Your experience is actually highly suggestive: it suggests a lack of physical toxicity, and visual effects. That means the 'strain' has promise. Did you save or culture any of that ergot? That ergot would show promise to potentially be useful.
I say potentially - it would take years, years, years of work on safety to ensure an ergot strain is not toxic to humans. It may in fact be worth the effort though.
Edited by CreonAntigone (12/02/21 01:25 AM)
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CreonAntigone
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: orison]
#27565604 - 12/02/21 02:16 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
orison said: Ive eaten raw ergot. collected them from grass. like a handful.
All I got was some wavy vision, corners of walls seemed to bend a lot. But other object not morph. Color enhanced. But that was about it.
To show the danger of ergot, I must add a counter to your (mild, but positive) trip report by posting one from someone who had a very different experience on ergot consumption: a psychotic reaction.
Now this person's story suggests to us already he is not truthful about why he consumed the fungus. He says he picked out the ergot from the organic rye grain, correctly identifying them as poisonous... then he says he fermented them along with the rest of the rye. Then he says he ate the sclerotia -- to see if they were poisonous? Eating is the last thing one should do to a poisonous mushroom!
It is clear to me that he ate the ergot to seek something and got far worse than he bargained for. This then stands as the ergot 'word of warning.' You might dismiss it as false given the unreliable narrator, but it seems true to me: what strikes me as true is that none of the negative experience reported is glossed over, and all the physical effects described make sense. The 'voices of command' are things that are quite common in psychotic reactions to psychedelics, as is his description of memory loss and feeling long-term effects.
As quoted from "Organic Production and Food Quality: A Down to Earth Analysis" by Robert Blair.
Quote:
There do not appear to be documented scientific reports of ergot in organic grains, but one man recounted his unfortunate experience with organic rye on July 31, 2008, at a supermarket in Newport Beach, California, where he was arrested (Zenor, 2008). The story is all the more unusual because this man is a trained chemist. The name of the store where he purchased the organic rye has been omitted to avoid embarrassment.
'I have always been interested in wild foods and mushrooms were on top of my list of favorite wild foods. I recently started a hobby of growing mushrooms. After some research, I engineered a small scale operation to extract sterile samples of mushroom tissue and grow it on potato dextrose agar which was easy and cheap to make. I found the organic rye grain ... in Huntington Beach. The rye grain is used to increase the amount of mycelium or fungal cells. The grain can easily be prepared to create an ideal environment for the cultivation of the fungal cells. Rye is the best grain apparently because it doesn’t burst as easily or something like that ... My agar inoculated with mycelium was reaching a point where it could be expanded by adding it to prepared grain so I gathered up the rye and winter wheat to see if I could prepare some sterilized grain to add mycelium to and make some grain spawn. I still had most of the rye and a few pounds of wheat so I decided to throw it all in together and start to soak it. When I added the rye, I noticed that it contained several dark kernels. They were fairly easy to see in the even sized kernels of grain. I used to eat wild oats on long walks and I was aware of fungus called ergot that also sometimes grows on wild oats in South Dakota. I have never seen it on the local oats. I remember tasting the ergot as a child because it looked like a deformed grain of oats and I ate a few of them without noticing any effect. That is why I wasn’t particularly worried about tasting the kernels ... I was mainly worried about some strange fungus getting in my grain and doing something to spoil it so I carefully went through the grain and removed all the ergot and threw them away. I tasted a few of them because I was trying to figure out if it was actually ergot. It had exactly the same texture and taste so I was absolutely sure it was ergot ... A crude example of what it is like is if you took a small bit of pancake batter and placed it on a hot griddle for about ½ hour.
I didn’t know what caused my bizarre behavior and didn’t even think of the possibility of ergot poisoning until I overheard a conversation in the room about “magic mushrooms” a few days later. That made me think about mind altering effects of ergot. I realized that it was only a couple of hours or less after I purposefully tasted the ergot and ate some of the moist grain before I went to [store name]. Soaking in water could have allowed some of the ergot to increase in concentration or perhaps it was contaminated. After the fact, it seems like a very dangerous thing to do since molds and fungus grow so readily on moist rye grain ...
The reason I went all the way to [store name] was in the hope that they would have some good samples of either oyster mushrooms or shiitake to add some new cultures in case the ones I had went bad. [Store name] at Newport Coast was the only place I have found good fresh oyster mushrooms and I didn’t have a clean batch of mycelium of that species. That was why I went there but I now believe I was severely affected by ergot poisoning so I don’t really remember exactly what was happening or how it happened. I was most definitely then under the influence of some very powerful mind altering substance and my mind failed to inform me of that fact. I didn’t have my normal capacity to realize something was wrong.
I remember how strange it felt going through the store but there was no particular useful or sane purpose in anything I did. Tequila is something I consider repulsive to drink and I can’t even imagine actually wanting to drink it. I remember running and hearing voices of authority behind me. I also remember hoping they would go away if I put down what I was carrying. They didn’t go away and some wording of “Stop, stop,” clearly registered in my mind. I tried to obey and all I remember after that is the world spinning forward out of control and a very powerful impact with the ground that made me senseless. I tried to get up but was not able to more than stumble a few steps as near as I remember...
I was still significantly impaired 4 days later where I just couldn’t remember my cell block number. I carried it on a piece of paper but it was thrown away during a search. I was worried that I would get into trouble because I didn’t know where I belonged. The cell block was A1 if I can trust my memory. Fortunately, it didn’t require a lot of thought being there and my cellmates took care of me and always had me follow someone. It seemed natural since I was new but remembering now, it sounds like I was almost retarded. I am actually worrying about permanent brain damage but I think most likely the long term memory loss will be restricted to the unpleasant aspects of incarceration. I am always the optimist.
His story does change: first he says he removed the ergot at the start after identifying them - eating some for good measure? Then he says the soaking may have increased the fungus, suggesting he soaked some of the ergot intentionally.
Let me provide the following alternative interpretation of his story: Whether he was much consciously aware of it or not, he decided to try and use his mushroom-growing skills (so he thought) to grow the ergot fungus. In a state of apparent madness, he consumed as many sclerotia as he could find - then he consumed some rye grain he'd left to soak with more of that fungus. Once the alkaloids settled in his system, he completely lost hold of his sense in a grocery store - the very same grocery store where he'd bought the ergoted rye some days earlier. He felt command hallucinations, experienced complete psychosis, resulting in arrest and severe memory loss as to the cause of his fall, and perhaps as to the severe danger of his cultivation activities prior to the fall.'
Regardless, the lesson is clear: ergot's not something to fuck around with. At least, not without good intentions!
Edited by CreonAntigone (12/02/21 02:53 AM)
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QM33
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Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Theory: Ancient Greeks produced ergot alkaloids in a primitive form of grain spawn known as Kykeon [Re: CreonAntigone]
#27565789 - 12/02/21 07:48 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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CreonAntigone said:
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greek representation of a man picking the fruits from the tree of life, clearly mushrooms to me...
Looking at this picture again I'd have to say: this one definitely looks like ergot.
The caps are not smooth. Psilocybe means 'smooth cap' for a reason. They look like ergot stromata to me.
Let us see some more beautiful fruiting ergot pictures for comparison.


The ergot fruiting body starts as the sclerotia stage and only later forms stromata after overwintering - the stromata, those mushroom-looking bodies, release spores. As you can see, some stromata are smooth, some are bumpy. This is much more consistent with what we see in these photos. Also, all the stromata stem from the single 'grain' of ergot. In my opinion, most of these Egyptian pictures strongly suggest ergot due to the way there appears to be the grain/sclerotia depicted at the bottom. But perhaps it could be substrate too. Ergot is just a suggestion for those photos and we probably can't rule out psilocybe in them.
All rough caps depicted cannot be psilocybe, they are probably ergot. The photo from ancient greece that you posted is very clearly ergot.
The bumps on the fruit heads look exactly like some specimens of fruiting ergot. When ergot fruits, the stromata extend from the sclerotia and become covered in sexual spores.

Ergot is not in the same fungal division as psilocybe, it is very separated from all mushrooms: it is in the division Ascomycota, as opposed to mushrooms which belong to basidiomycota. This division is characterized by a fundamental separation in how their spores work. Ergot, like all fungi in ascomycota, makes asexual spores called conidia and sexual spores known as ascospores. Conidia are made before fruiting while ascospores are made only by the fruiting bodies. The sexual ascospores appear on the stroma: those are the bumps that are present on them.
What appears in that picture from ancient greece looks to me like: ergot stromata abundantly covered in sexual spores. 'Tree of life', as in, fully mature ergot.
Image C shows a closeup of the 'bumps', the ascospores. I am not certain how large the asexual spores - the conidia - are, but probably much smaller.

Some Christian accounts of the Eleusinian mysteries - happening from what might be considered an outsider's view, without a deep understanding of the tradition - portrayed the climax of the ceremonies as the presentation of a 'single piece of grain'. What if that grain was not a grain at all, but what looked like a grain: a piece of ergot, fruiting? This would release ascospores into the air, over the whole congregation. The entire population would be 'inoculated' with the strongest and most mature form of ergot spores, in a big room with limited ventilation, a sacred chamber. As a result, the process of initiation would involve thoroughly infecting the entire population with ergot.
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