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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated * 4
    #27539721 - 11/11/21 07:05 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

This new technology provides a glimmer of hope for those hoping to see 1984-style totalarianism implemented in their life time.

This headline could've been a paraody a few years ago:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/invisible-ink-could-reveal-whether-kids-have-been-vaccinated/

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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: junk_f00d] * 2
    #27540102 - 11/12/21 05:56 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Orwell commented on new proposed ways of storing medical information that would primarily help people in third world countries that have poor medical record keeping?

Our current system of healthcare records that thousands of people and any possible hackers/data thieves have access to seem like a far less private way of storing information. Something like this would almost certainly only be optional even if it came to fruition and was used in America.

Why are people so petrified by anything having to do with vaccines?

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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: feevers] * 1
    #27540113 - 11/12/21 06:19 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, after reading that article, it's obvious the current system is far worse. Long paper trails are bad, longer digital trails are even worse. You don't even have to be present to be monitored.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: christopera] * 1
    #27540138 - 11/12/21 06:52 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I would rather be a Jew with a tattoo on my wrist in the death camps, that never actually existed, than have my vaccination status certified.


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: christopera]
    #27540508 - 11/12/21 12:35 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Orwell commented on new proposed ways of storing medical information that would primarily help people in third world countries that have poor medical record keeping?

Our current system of healthcare records that thousands of people and any possible hackers/data thieves have access to seem like a far less private way of storing information. Something like this would almost certainly only be optional even if it came to fruition and was used in America.

Why are people so petrified by anything having to do with vaccines?



Quote:

christopera said:
Yeah, after reading that article, it's obvious the current system is far worse. Long paper trails are bad, longer digital trails are even worse. You don't even have to be present to be monitored.



Do you not see the potential implications of submitting to such a system? I agree vaccination record keeping is a mess, but a) is that actually a problem that's causing harm, and b) we're seeing 'the unvaccinated' being treated as second class citizens in many western countries, in some cases barred from entry unless proof is demonstrated. Do you really want private corporations (using both gov't and science as a proxy for policy) to be able to determine your eligibility to fit in with society? Mind you, the definition of fully vaccinated seems to be require continual boosters, and there's a lot of level-headed reasons why a person may be opposed to vaccination against COVIDy. If this is accepted, it can get way worse. Maybe our disagreement comes down to how maliciously these measures might be abused. I prefer a robust stance against that kind of stuff, personally.

Initially, yeah the idea of better record keeping is innocuous enough, but when coupled with exclusionary measures and coercive forces pressuring people into consuming products.. well it gets kind of nasty there, especially when considering the precedent it sets.

When I was a more organized and ambitious young man, I used to actually keep my vax card on me, with the history and everythigng in case I was hospitalized and needed it. I didn't mind that, but thought the record keeping by the state was pretty ghetto and was kind of annoyed with the burden of needing to carry a card for my own sake. But I was never coerced into being vaccinated, asked to prove my status in order to gain eligibility and the vaccines I'd taken had been around much longer and were a simple enough concept (dead or inactived virus as opposed to mRNA).

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: junk_f00d] * 3
    #27540527 - 11/12/21 12:53 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I had to show my vaccine QR code the other day to watch the new Bond movie in a theater  .
  It wasn't worth the 5 minutes I spent looking through my iPhone to find it .
    On the other hand though I could reasonably assume there were no hardcore Holocaust denying  Trump  supporting election  nutters  in there and that was kind of comforting . It was like safe space .


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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27540579 - 11/12/21 01:28 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
I had to show my vaccine QR code the other day to watch the new Bond movie in a theater  .
  It wasn't worth the 5 minutes I spent looking through my iPhone to find it .
    On the other hand though I could reasonably assume there were no hardcore Holocaust denying  Trump  supporting election  nutters  in there and that was kind of comforting . It was like safe space .



So you support giving corporations/gov't the ability to filter out 'thought criminals' and require that you conform to their mandates, and you don't see how this might, at all, be an issue or a bad precedent to be setting? Not sure if satire.

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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27540626 - 11/12/21 02:05 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Do you not see the potential implications of submitting to such a system?




The implications are talked about in the article, anything else is objectively just your own paranoia at this point. There are far easier ways to control the sheep if that's what you think the plan is, and most of them we submit to willingly.


Quote:

I agree vaccination record keeping is a mess, but a) is that actually a problem that's causing harm, and b) we're seeing 'the unvaccinated' being treated as second class citizens in many western countries, in some cases barred from entry unless proof is demonstrated. Do you really want private corporations (using both gov't and science as a proxy for policy) to be able to determine your eligibility to fit in with society? Mind you, the definition of fully vaccinated seems to be require continual boosters, and there's a lot of level-headed reasons why a person may be opposed to vaccination against COVIDy. If this is accepted, it can get way worse. Maybe our disagreement comes down to how maliciously these measures might be abused. I prefer a robust stance against that kind of stuff, personally.




In third world countries, yes obviously the lack of record keeping causes harm.

I don't care much about how private businesses choose to run their business as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. Not letting Johnny Freedom into your restaurant because he is statistically more likely to have and spread a deadly pandemic virus is not hurting him. If you can legally choose not to sell a cake to a gay person, you should be free to enact and enforce a simple public health requirement for your customers as well. As of right now I don't know anyone/anywhere that requires boosters, but like with every other vaccine we've all gotten (and in many cases been forced to get), the data will drive what counts as fully vaccinated.

You seem to be automatically assuming this technology will be some sort of authoritarian vaccine passport thing, but I just don't see any way that would legally become a thing... or any reason it would be prioritized by the powers that be over a simple smartphone app or piece or paper.

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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: feevers]
    #27540680 - 11/12/21 02:49 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
You seem to be automatically assuming this technology will be some sort of authoritarian vaccine passport thing, but I just don't see any way that would legally become a thing... or any reason it would be prioritized by the powers that be over a simple smartphone app or piece or paper.



Do you not see what's going on in places like Australia or Europe? Even in the USA it's being pushed by the president and OSHA despite being shot down by the Feds. I'm not thinking this particular technology will take off, and phones make way more sense. I just thought the headline was comical. But we are undeniably discussing the mnove toward authoritarian vaccine passport things, and opposing it is viewed as extremist. Why not be more robust against an Orwellian state rather than less? It's not about paranoia, it's about avoiding being exploited down the road.

You can call it paranoia if you like, but I watched how 9/11 turned into a mass domestic surveillance program that will now likely never end. I don't want to submit my bodily autonomy to corporate controlled science / big pharma in order to participate in society, and vaccine passports are a confident stride in that direction. I see this more likely going bad than good. 

Freedom always has a cost. Eroding it in the name of 'public safety' (which has been subject to extreme propaganda) is unwise. How safe do we need to be? The risk of death is always present and responses should be scaled accordingly. In addition, vaccine requirements have little logic behind them imo, as I'm discussing in the Coronavirus chat thread. Conceding to these requirements is crazy imo.

Quote:


If you can legally choose not to sell a cake to a gay person, you should be free to enact and enforce a simple public health requirement for your customers as well.




But these are opposites - one is freedom (to refuse an order) the other is loss of freedom (must now comply with the states health mandates).

Edited by junk_f00d (11/12/21 02:55 PM)

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: junk_f00d] * 2
    #27540706 - 11/12/21 03:20 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

So you support giving corporations/gov't the ability to filter out 'thought criminals' and require that you conform to their mandates, and you don't see how this might, at all, be an issue or a bad precedent to be setting? Not sure if satire.




  Do I support the fine people who own the movie theater keeping you out while I'm there ?
Yes . Yes I do .
  They care about the safety of their customers , you don't give a fuck about me  or anyone else there .


--------------------

Edited by Psilynut2 (11/12/21 03:24 PM)

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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: junk_f00d] * 1
    #27540741 - 11/12/21 03:48 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Quote:

feevers said:
You seem to be automatically assuming this technology will be some sort of authoritarian vaccine passport thing, but I just don't see any way that would legally become a thing... or any reason it would be prioritized by the powers that be over a simple smartphone app or piece or paper.



Do you not see what's going on in places like Australia or Europe? Even in the USA it's being pushed by the president and OSHA despite being shot down by the Feds. I'm not thinking this particular technology will take off, and phones make way more sense. I just thought the headline was comical. But we are undeniably discussing the mnove toward authoritarian vaccine passport things, and opposing it is viewed as extremist. Why not be more robust against an Orwellian state rather than less? It's not about paranoia, it's about avoiding being exploited down the road.

You can call it paranoia if you like, but I watched how 9/11 turned into a mass domestic surveillance program that will now likely never end. I don't want to submit my bodily autonomy to corporate controlled science / big pharma in order to participate in society, and vaccine passports are a confident stride in that direction. I see this more likely going bad than good. 

Freedom always has a cost. Eroding it in the name of 'public safety' (which has been subject to extreme propaganda) is unwise. How safe do we need to be? The risk of death is always present and responses should be scaled accordingly. In addition, vaccine requirements have little logic behind them imo, as I'm discussing in the Coronavirus chat thread. Conceding to these requirements is crazy imo.




Mandated vaccines aren't new, I've been getting them both due to private businesses requiring them for employment and for school for about a decade now along with tens of millions of other Americans. During a pandemic is the obvious time to add one to that list, and for many private institutions to adopt mandates for that specific pandemic virus. Anything can be a "slippery slope", that doesn't mean inaction is the better road as Occam's razor almost always applies, and a public health measure during a pandemic that's killed millions and is nowhere near over is just a public health measure.


Quote:

But these are opposites - one is freedom (to refuse an order) the other is loss of freedom (must now comply with the states health mandates).




Nope, one is just the kind of freedom that you don't like so you choose to irrationally argue against it.

In what world does it make sense to have the freedom to turn a customer away because of who they're sexually and/or emotionally attracted to, but not have the freedom to turn them away because they pose a greater risk to your health (and that of your staff and other customers)?

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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: feevers] * 1
    #27541403 - 11/13/21 06:57 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Im all for micro chipping people for covid vaccine madates. an it would be better for contact tracing as well. An it would alert people around you if people are not up to date on there booster shots.

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OfflineOz_Salvia
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27542792 - 11/14/21 08:36 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

.

Edited by Oz_Salvia (11/18/21 01:10 AM)

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Offlinejunk_f00d
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: feevers]
    #27542991 - 11/14/21 12:10 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Mandated vaccines aren't new, I've been getting them both due to private businesses requiring them for employment and for school for about a decade now along with tens of millions of other Americans. During a pandemic is the obvious time to add one to that list, and for many private institutions to adopt mandates for that specific pandemic virus. Anything can be a "slippery slope", that doesn't mean inaction is the better road as Occam's razor almost always applies, and a public health measure during a pandemic that's killed millions and is nowhere near over is just a public health measure.




Those aren't mandates required by the state or federal government though, from what it sounds like, which is what I'm opposed to. You could also interpret Occam's razor to imply that inaction (simplest solution) may be optimal.

If you want to protect yourself, get vaccinated. I don't see the benefit in forcing everyone to do so, especially those that have already developed natural immunity and/or are not at risk of hospitalization. And if the mandate is not logically sound, of course it should be opposed.


Quote:

feevers said:
Nope, one is just the kind of freedom that you don't like so you choose to irrationally argue against it.

In what world does it make sense to have the freedom to turn a customer away because of who they're sexually and/or emotionally attracted to, but not have the freedom to turn them away because they pose a greater risk to your health (and that of your staff and other customers)?



No, they are opposite - one is the freedom to turn away a customer, the other is the state requiring all individuals be vaccinated. I'm ok with shop owners requiring proof if they choose to do so on their own accord, but I don't agree with the state mandating these requirements.

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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: junk_f00d] * 1
    #27543911 - 11/15/21 07:24 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

junk_f00d said:
Those aren't mandates required by the state or federal government though, from what it sounds like, which is what I'm opposed to



States enact vaccine mandates for schools and child care facilities, some states have mandates for healthcare workers as well. The feds enact mandates for the military and some federal workers, countries require proof of vaccination to enter. Nothing new at all.


Quote:

junk_f00d said:
You could also interpret Occam's razor to imply that inaction (simplest solution) may be optimal.



The simplest solution to stopping people from getting sick and dying is to let them get sick and die?


Quote:

junk_f00d said:
If you want to protect yourself, get vaccinated.



Do you genuinely believe that's the only reason that people get vaccinated?


Quote:

junk_f00d said:
No, they are opposite - one is the freedom to turn away a customer, the other is the state requiring all individuals be vaccinated. I'm ok with shop owners requiring proof if they choose to do so on their own accord, but I don't agree with the state mandating these requirements.



Are we talking about reality or a hypothetical fantasy world you're creating? As far as I know in america the state does not require customers of a business to be vaccinated, the business does. Either you're agreeing that it's okay for gay people to be refused but those unwilling to comply with the business' health/safety policies should not be refused, or you're disagreeing with something that isn't happening and no one in this thread is making a case for.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: feevers]
    #27543932 - 11/15/21 08:00 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
As far as I know in america the state does not require customers of a business to be vaccinated, the business does.



In Los Angeles, many business are required to turn away customers that can't show proof of vaccination.


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: Enlil]
    #27543973 - 11/15/21 08:44 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

feevers said:
As far as I know in america the state does not require customers of a business to be vaccinated, the business does.



In Los Angeles, many business are required to turn away customers that can't show proof of vaccination.




Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. I can't find the actual language of the mandate but it looks once they start enforcing it in a couple weeks they're allowing unvaccinated people to show a negative test result from the past 3 days and leaving exemptions up to the business' discretion. Not exactly a requirement to turn unvaccinated people away as you say, I think leaving the option open for testing instead of vaccination is fair, and it's pretty obvious how the exemption thing will play out.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: feevers]
    #27543976 - 11/15/21 08:47 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

It's not obvious to me.  Care to elaborate?

I was turned away from a restaurant on Saturday because I couldn't show proof.


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: Enlil]
    #27543979 - 11/15/21 08:54 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
It's not obvious to me.  Care to elaborate?

I was turned away from a restaurant on Saturday because I couldn't show proof.





Did you have a negative test result with you? If you did then it sounds like the business made a choice to turn you away :shrug2:

By the exemption thing I mean those business owners who are against mandates will be liberal with allowing "religious and medical" exemptions. Some will do so very publicly and cash in on the publicity and gofundme money.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Invisible Ink Could Reveal Whether You've Been Vaccinated [Re: feevers]
    #27543981 - 11/15/21 08:57 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't.  The business had to turn me away.  As I said, businesses are required to turn away people without proof of vaccination.  Claim whatever semantic victory you want, but everything in that sentence is true.


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