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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: We don’t know whether these “attacks” are actually happening. That’s step one.
Step one is whether people were injured - not whether these “attacks” are actually happening.
The diagnosis of acquired brain injury lends support to the claim that people were injured. To some extent, that actually happened.
It doesn’t lend support to the belief that these injuries were the result of a targeted attack; it doesn't lend support to the belief that every claimed instance of the syndrome resulted in a diagnosis of brain injury; it doesn't lend support to the belief that every claimed instance of the syndrome has the same cause.
Considering the public availability of these diagnoses (like my supplied research study which, btw, was not mentioned as one of the debunked studies in the article you recently shared), what is the benefit from insisting that nothing happened?
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The Ecstatic
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Because nothing did happen. The “thing” that’s happening according to the media framework is that nefarious state actors are harming Western diplomats with some mysterious weapon.
It’s like if I went to a neighborhood watch meeting and said you were robbing people for being trump supporters, but then my only evidence is that one person, Doris, (who’s trustworthy) has confirmed they are missing items from their house.
I can’t prove:
- whether multiple people were robbed - whether anyone was robbed for one purpose - whether the one trustworthy person was actually robbed and didn’t just misplace something - whether you were involved at all or have some political motivation for a series of supposed robbings
Any reasonable person would see me making this claim (that’s about 5 steps removed from the scant evidence that actually exists) and conclude that I’m just trying to get the neighborhood watch to hate you, especially if I bring it up every single week for a year and never have any new evidence. Now, sure, we can try to figure out whether someone robbed Doris or if she’s just suffering from early onset dementia, but something tells me most people would conclude I don’t give a shit about Doris or her missing items, I’m just desperately trying to slander you.
“Hey buddy shut the fuck up about shiva being a thief you have no evidence at all.”
“Oh wow guess you don’t care about Doris.”
Lol. No. Doris will be fine. The millionaires who have fallen victim to these mysterious head injuries (a type of injury that didn’t exist before 2019) will be fine.
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shivas.wisdom
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"Because nothing did happen. [...] A type of injury that didn’t exist before 2019. "
This is exactly the thing I'm criticizing. People were diagnosed with acquired brain injury - not Havana syndrome - and ABI is a type of injury that certainly did exist before 2019. The only thing that's new is the term 'Havana syndrome' being used to informally label a grouping of health-complaints occurring in Havana with no immediately apparent cause.
It seems neither of our analogies are perfect, because I didn't intend to stress the idea of a targeted attack - and the professional diagnosis of a team of medical researchers is not equivalent to the witness statement of a trustworthy person. A diagnosis should be evidence based, and the study I provided details that process, while also allowing for peer review.
And furthermore, as I already stated, the story that "nefarious state actors are harming Western diplomats with some mysterious weapon" is a product of Cuba-USA relations. It's not the same case here in Canada, where the rhetoric that 'nothing happened' isn't protecting Cubans from Canadian aggression - it's denying Canadians proper compensation for injuries they (and their families) recieved because of possible negligence on the part of their employer. You might be fine shrugging them off as millionaires, but most embassy workers are rank-n-file earning middle-class wages - not top diplomats.
So what should I do? Concern myself only with US political maneuvering, and say nothing happened? Or craft a message that doesn't throw anyone under the bus, and say that targeted sonic weapon attacks never happened?
And sure, given the context of you living in the USA, maybe you don't think a disclaimer is necessary when discussing the “thing” that’s happening - but when I bring up a different perspective, is "I'm not buying any of it" a reasonable response?
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The Ecstatic
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Treat this story as you would any other report of some person or persons getting head injuries. “Oh I feel bad for them, hope they recover.” But you can’t just discard the ton of baggage that’s become inseparable from this story. That’s my point.
To the extent that injuries are happening, those people are receiving medical care. Yet there’s clearly a sinister effort to push this story into the public consciousness, so yeah if it walks like a duck..
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Brian Jones
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It does rate a 10 on the weirdness scale. And congress keeps bringing it up. The rayguns arms race to follow.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Treat this story as you would any other report of some person or persons getting head injuries. “Oh I feel bad for them, hope they recover.” But you can’t just discard the ton of baggage that’s become inseparable from this story. That’s my point.
I feel like I am treating this story like I would any other story of head injuries - which is to defend their validity after seeing them dismissed over political prejudices. I've also acknowledged the baggage from the very beginning: "Although I recognize the likely ulterior motives behind the bipartisanship of the US government, I don't think the claim that Havana syndrome was made up by the CIA is sound."
What else are you looking for?
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: To the extent that injuries are happening, those people are receiving medical care. Yet there’s clearly a sinister effort to push this story into the public consciousness, so yeah if it walks like a duck..
Except, unlike in the USA, this isn't happening in Canada - that's why the injured diplomats are currently suing the Canadian gov't. You're still situating yourself in the US narrative (even if it's in opposition) and expecting the rest of the world to conform. Destroying US cultural hegemony starts with you.
It could even be argued that the politicization of these injuries by the USA gov't is responsible for this, because any precautionary response by the Canadian gov't (like removing embassy employees and their families from Havana) has been interpreted as a "behaviour [that] favours those who in the United States use this issue to attack and denigrate Cuba". Damned by the Americans saying it's a targeted attack - damned by the Americans saying nothing happened.
Sure, it's less of a problem than the threat posed to the Cuban people - but it's costs you absolutely nothing to acknowledge the greater perspective.
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (11/03/21 02:54 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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I honestly can’t tell what is bothering you: that I whimsically dismissed the validity of these injuries? Unfortunately, my political opinions arent broadcast to billions of people and don’t hold the weight necessary to foment global military actions. It’s a propaganda campaign and id rather people see someone denounce it as such than some unspecified middle ground where I admit there’s something fishy going on. These people aren’t beholden to some moral ethos or dedication to truth and I’m not gonna be their useful idiot and police the terms of debate around their obvious scheme.
I remember posting here a few years into the Iraq War, when it was made clear to all that there were no WMDs, and zappaisgod posting pictures of rusted out chemical drums. You see, those old drums stored chemical weapons maybe at some point, and technically those are weapons of mass destruction, so technically Bush and Cheney didn’t lie. Do you see why this admission, although perhaps technically correct, is problematic? It serves no purpose other than to give cover for the lies that got us into Iraq.
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shivas.wisdom
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What bothers me?
You've already stated multiple times in this thread that you don't expect anything we post to move the needle of public opinion - in that, I agree - so it's not about your actions in the greater scheme of things.
I'm bothered by what seems to be your tendency to see things in black and white, when it comes to opposing US foreign policy. Even in a casual conversation on an internet forum, with no real stakes, you shut down my perspective pretty hard because it didn't take the absolute opposing view against the US state. The reason that bothers me is because things rarely break down into such simple terms.
I saw the same tendency in how quickly you attributed north-east Asian anarchists to CIA cooperators. I understand that the US will support groups from fundamentalist terrorists all the way to pro-democracy groups - but does that necessarily mean that individuals or groups in that global region, who may have good reason to be more concerned with the actions of the Chinese gov't (because that's the region they live in) over the actions of the US gov't, automatically CIA cooperators because their interests align to a limited extent?
Is Rojava an enemy of freedom because their interests in the region partially align with those of the USA? Is Assad a freedom fighter because his interests run opposed to those of the USA?
I understand why you would want to personally focus on opposing the actions of the US state - but you need to realize that things don't always divide so cleanly.
Edit: "It serves no purpose other than to give cover for the lies that got us into Iraq."
Sure and you don't see me making that argument, but in this case my argument serves a purpose - you can't access proper healthcare treatments, nor qualify for workers compensation, if your injuries are attributed to a fake illness.
Edited by shivas.wisdom (11/03/21 04:18 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Of course things aren’t so black and white, I’m saying that arguing for a gray area, historically, only ever lends credence to the idea that both black and white arguments have equal merit. “Teach the controversy” and all that. Imagine you found some document that proved only 5.8 million Jews died in the Holocaust. Of what utility is discussing that truth? Who benefits from such a discussion?
I’m sure Russia and Cuba have secret, morally unsound, programs. I’m sure China shits on civil liberties in Xinjiang.
But who are the people who spend their time pointing these things out, often exaggerating the evidence to great degrees? What are their goals? They don’t need my help.
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shivas.wisdom
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I'm not talking about splitting hairs as an underhanded rhetorical technique - your holocaust example is as irrelevant to my argument as the Iraqi WMD one. I don't see any utility in arguing those technicalities, but an anarchist living in Cuba, China, or Russia absolutely has cause to focus on opposing the State they reside in, instead of focusing on opposing the USA.
And you're still displaying that flawed absolutist approach - "who are the people who spend their time pointing these things out?" - lumping anyone who criticizes Cuba, China, or Russia into a single 'they' that encompasses American corporate media all the way to anarchist individuals.
Who is 'they'? In this thread it was me, and despite everything you know about my political beliefs and the fact that I had already explicitly distanced myself from the sonic weapon story multiple times, you still accused me of taking the State Department’s position. In another thread, it was anarchists in north-east Asia, who you casually labelled CIA cooperators. They don't deserve your help solidarity?
International solidarity is, imo, a pretty important aspect of radical politics. Nationality divides us just like race or religion - so why shouldn't radicals in China have your solidarity? Why shouldn't you benefit from their solidarity? It won't happen if you only see things in terms of 'good for the US gov't vs bad for the US gov't'; or if you accuse anyone existing outside that dichotomy of being cooperators of the US gov't.
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The Ecstatic
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Anarchists in Cuba don’t run CNN or the New York Times
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shivas.wisdom
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For sure, but why do you think pointing that out is relevant here? I believe this is the first time either CNN or the NYT have been brought up.
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The Ecstatic
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Why is it relevant? Because it’s a deliberate sabre rattling campaign being waged by those outlets against those states.
And the key difference here between Havana Syndrome and something like the US media spotlighting Chinese crackdowns on HK protestors is that there’s no evidence for Havana Syndrome. It’s not like Cuban anarchists started getting brain hemorrhages and CNN is amplifying that message to harm the Cuban government, CNN is just making shit up whole cloth (or playing stenographer to State Dept imaginations).
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shivas.wisdom
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I certainly have provided evidence that Canadian diplomats started getting brain hemorrhages. CNN may be amplifying that message to harm the Cuban government, but CNN isn't just making shit up whole cloth. Why do you insist on clinging to this untruth?
Besides, were you highlighting 'no evidence for made up things' when you said "I'm sure [...] Cuba [has] secret, morally unsound, programs. [...] But who are the people who spend their time pointing these things out, often exaggerating the evidence to great degrees? What are their goals? They don’t need my help."
So why don't we instead look at something that both Cuban anarchists and American corporate media were talking about - the Cuban protests from last summer.
Depending on the corporate media you watch, you were likely to see two different explanations put forth: the first was that these protests were the result of the policies of a communist gov't - the second would be that these protests were the result of the US embargo. A third explanation, that of American anti-Imperialists, held that the protests were the result of covert intervention by the US gov't to weaken an enemy from within. I wonder which camp you found yourself in.
What were anarchists in Cuba talking about? Although most of the writing from the region is hard to access if you don't speak Spanish (I don't speak it), the Taller Libertario Alfredo López (Alfredo López Libertarian Workshop) - part of the Anarchist Federation of the Caribbean and Central America, and one of the participants in the ABRA Social Center and Libertarian Library - published a translated statement. Let's hear them out (emphasis mine):
Quote:
Cuba: The end of the social enchantment of the “Revolution” The repressive social enchantment that kept a great part of the international left pacified has melted away. Under the “Cuban Revolution,” and contrary to its benign image, it has publicly exposed, in all its crudeness and repressive grandeur, the nature of the “Cuban State.” The same Cuban State that created—to face Yankee imperialism—an omnipresent political police that fights the same society it controls. The same Cuban State that destroyed—in the name of socialism—all the peoples’ and workers’ organizations that, with their history of struggle, made a daily reality the socialist triumphs the State claims as its own. That same Cuban State that has made “solidarity” into a brand of international identity, all the while it keeps us drowning in the distrust and fear among neighbors. The same Cuban State that—under the worsening Yankee blockade—builds more hotels for foreign tourists than the infrastructure needed to produce food, fruit, and milk. The same Cuban State that has produced the only vaccines in Latin America against COVID-19 yet keeps its healthcare personnel in a condition of employees of the political police.
This Cuban State in these days of July 2021 has shown us what it is: a typical oligarchy, interested only in maintaining its absolute power at all costs; a vulgar kleptocracy with humanist and enlightened pretentions; a pyramid of power as solid and unequal as the pyramids of the Egyptian theocracies, but surrounded by the sands of paradisical beaches.
Right now, to have geopolitical arguments about the place of Cuba in the global imperialist plan, to argue that the antigovernment protests in Cuba are inevitably paid by the Cuban right in Miami, to yell that the protesters are just delinquents looking to loot, that the real popular revolutionaries are with their government—all of these are arguments that describe a great deal of the reality, but they don’t express everything with just one angle. The Cuban people has as much right and as much need to protest as those of Colombia and Chile. What’s the difference: that they’re oligarchies with different origins? With practices that are more or less brutal? With ideological shades more or less distinguishable? With postures that are more or less servile to the United States? With ideals more or less sublime to justify their privileges? All these huge differences between the Colombian, Chilean, and Cuban oligarchies are reduced to zero when, on a beautiful Sunday morning, you discover that, besides the gangster oligarchies in Colombia and Chile, the Cuban oligarchy—faced with an unarmed populace—is armed to the teeth, a little more or a little less, to crush you and your siblings, your body and your mind, if it even crosses your mind to question a word of the normalcy they’ve built.
Everything that the Cuban State has done to produce the national vaccines against COVID-19, all the labor funding, all the salary increases that it offered to many sectors in the middle of the pandemic, it all has at once evaporated. This is not only because of the death spiral of inflation and the endemic food scarcity in Cuba, but also because it has made visible that all of it was part of the grisly structure of “repressive tolerance,” something that any decent person in Cuba could describe, without having to read any brilliant book on counterculture. To those who come to sugarcoat that repressive tolerance in this country and hold up the illusion of militarized harmony, we can calmly define them as the new face of what shouldn’t have a place in our future. Those who, in the name of a future democracy or the well-functioning of the economy, come to discredit the affinities and fellowship and energies that have emerged in the protests, or would belittle what happened these last days as “simple vandalism by the dregs of society,” speak in the name and with the language of the decrepit oligarchies that once again shamelessly dare to speak in our country.
The “masses” have again become the “People,” with all their light and shadow, to stop obeying the heavy chains of authority, and have again begun to trust their emotions, affinities, and the basic ability to think together, who have made a comeback in disobedience and solidarity among equals, in the middle of the spiral of violence, the pandemic, and scarcity. This is the new reality that has been born in Cuba these days of July 2021, and in that new reality, as anarchists in Cuba, we'd like to consider ourselves part of it.
—Taller Libertario Alfredo López
Who are the people who spend their time pointing these things out? Not just CNN or the NYT - despite your premature conclusion. So are they just imperial pawns undeserving of help, or humans with self-agency who deserve our solidarity?
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (11/05/21 11:32 AM)
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The Ecstatic
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The most recent protests in Cuba are a good example of a real thing happening that US media has reported on for ulterior motives.
Now, if US media saw the recent protests and began reporting on them under the premise of “Cubans are mad at communist government satanic child sacrifice program,” with the evidence of “some children have disappeared,” then id likely have a similar problem with it as I do Havana Syndrome.
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Edited by The Ecstatic (11/05/21 12:24 PM)
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shivas.wisdom
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The initial injuries at the Havana embassy are a real thing that happened too - per my provided diagnosis of brain injury - which the US media has since reported on for ulterior motives.
In your example, the better response would be 'there's no communist government satanic child sacrifice program' - not that 'there's no reason for the Cubans to protest' .
Why, in this case, do you consider the better response to be 'there's no injuries' instead of 'there's no communist government secret sonic weapon program'?
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The Ecstatic
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The better response is to dismiss the story altogether because there’s no evidence that what’s being reported is actually happening.
I’d love it if some enterprising young investigative journalist found the real culprit of these injuries, but it’s really hard to prove a negative.
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shivas.wisdom
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What story is being reported on without evidence? Be more clear here. Are you referring to the story of targeted sonic weapon attacks, or the story of embassy workers being injured without a clear source of origin? Because, for the umpteenth time, the later certainly has evidence. If you disagree with the conclusions of the medical experts, perhaps you can explain why.
You don't need political maneuvering to create this kind of story. Here's another one currently going around up here: Eight people from N.B. mystery illness cluster may have been misdiagnosed, new research says - only in this case, they have the benefit of not having their injuries misrepresented out of political expediency.
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The Ecstatic
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Political expediency is why the story exists in the first place. “Canadian person suffers brain injury” is not a global headline outside of the forced context.
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shivas.wisdom
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I just provided another mystery illness story that exists void of any political maneuvering. Guess what? It's a global headline. UK - Doctors investigate mystery brain disease in Canada USA - Mysterious Brain Syndrome Stumps Canadian Doctors India - Mysterious brain illness reported in 48 people in Canada, here's what we know so far
Perhaps you can answer this: what would you consider evidence that embassy workers in Havana were injured, without an immediately apparent cause?
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