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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Havana Syndrome * 1
    #27487559 - 09/30/21 02:14 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Y’all heard about this?

Apparently a sinister enemy (Russia or Cuba or maybe both who knows) have been frying US diplomats with a microwave ray gun and scrambling their brains. It’s become such an issue that Congress just passed a billl UNANIMOUSLY to appropriate funds for the healthcare of these government workers (who already have great healthcare).



Welp, turns out it was all a bunch of bullshit.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/danvergano/havana-syndrome-jason-crickets


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27487609 - 09/30/21 02:57 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I have been saying for years that’s it’s nonsense. It was obviously a ploy to put Cuba back on the shit list.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27487634 - 09/30/21 03:11 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

This has been a strange story from the get go, sounding a lot like it was written by mediocre spy novelist. While I don't know that your source is definitive (yet), I did enjoy the part when they said psychogenic mass psychology effects may have played a role. You think? The people who work in that "industry" do seem to develope paranoid tendencies. I haven't seen the movie "The Conversation" in many decades but I remeber them getting really weired out.

But the House voted 427-0 on the Havana Act bill so everything should be cool.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27488653 - 10/01/21 12:18 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah it’s crazy how functional our legislative process is when it’s trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27520189 - 10/27/21 12:58 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Senator Mark Warner thinks it’s “very very problematic” that we don’t have more intel about the thing that the CIA made up.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/27/mark-warner-havana-syndrome-intel-517331


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27520270 - 10/27/21 02:03 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Although I recognize the likely ulterior motives behind the bipartisanship of the US government, I don't think the claim that Havana syndrome was made up by the CIA is sound.

Two reasons mostly: Canadian diplomats in Cuba were also affected; and we don't share the same tense relationship with Cuba that the US does. I also know that medical studies done by Canadian researchers did confirm that brain injuries occurred during the diplomats stay in Havana; so even if the story of sonic weapons wielded by nefarious communists is false, something still happened to cause injury.

The study I reference concluded that low-doses of neurotoxins from pesticides (the spraying of which increased in 2016 in response to the zika virus) may have been responsible. We won't be able to properly treat the injured, nor prevent future cases, if we prematurely conclude it's a CIA lie.


Havana Syndrome: Neuroanatomical and Neurofunctional Assessment in Acquired Brain Injury Due to Unknown Etiology

Quote:

Results: The clinical presentation, cognitive impairment in the spatial memory domain, positive auditory-vestibular results, degradation of fiber tracts in the fornix on DTI, leaky brain vesselson DCE-MRI and abnormal brain slowing on MEG all support the diagnosis of acquired brain injury in the Canadian diplomats and their families posted in Cuba.

The clinical course, pattern of injury, brain regions involved, cortical and sub-cortical dysfunction, together with a history of common exposure, all raise the hypothesis of recurrent, low-dose exposure to neurotoxins. Notably, lesions evident in networks involving the brain stem, basal forebrain and fornix were highly suggestive of cholinesterase inhibitor intoxication, as the cause of brain injury in our cohort of Canadian diplomats and families. Biochemical analysis of plasma acetyl- and butyryl-cholinesterase activity confirmed lower activity in recently-exposed individuals, further supporting this hypothesis. Toxicological analysis of serum samples using the high-resolution accurate Orbitrap mass spectrometry confirmed the presence of pyrethroid and organophosphate, and their metabolites in exposed individuals.

While proving the source of exposure and cause of injury is difficult, if not impossible at this time point, embassy records show a significant increase in fumigation in recent years with weekly exposure to high dose pesticides in and around many diplomats’ residences. Our results provide a plausible explanation for acquired brain injury secondary to neurotoxin exposure. A multidisciplinary approach may offer new mitigation strategies for rapid diagnosis, reduction of exposure, and potential prevention of future injury.





Edit: replaced cbc article with the actual study


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/27/21 06:26 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27520593 - 10/27/21 06:51 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I’m not buying any of it. A few hundred cases and no real evidence.

At least in the past they’d present fabricated evidence, can’t even get that anymore smh


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Edited by The Ecstatic (10/27/21 07:01 PM)

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27520650 - 10/27/21 07:47 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

What do you mean "no real evidence"? What are you looking for?

The study I linked to certainly provides evidence in support of some very reasonable conclusions. If you're looking for more than tests and scans, the medical researchers went so far as to preform an autopsy on a dog that was brought from Canada to Cuba as a family pet. Why don't you consider any of this to be real evidence?

I know you're aware of COINTELPRO - are you aware of the specific tactic of 'badjacketing'? Although it's not exactly applicable here, I remember you also claimed that anarchists in north-east Asia are CIA involved without providing any evidence, and it's certainly applicable there.

Badjacketing is the tactic of accusing others, without cause or evidence, of being an infiltrator or cooperator. It's a psychological tactic, made all the more potent by the legitimate threat of infiltrators and cooperators, that encourages us to act paranoid. It's been used to great effect in the past - look up Annie Mae Aquash or Kwame Ture. Once again, it's less applicable in this case, but the ease by which you jump to 'CIA plot' is exactly the kind of paranoia that can be taken advantage of.

So I'll ask again: Why don't you consider any of this to be real evidence? Are you suggesting that a team of medical researchers from eastern Canada are CIA cooperators?


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/27/21 08:00 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27520781 - 10/27/21 09:29 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

It doesn’t literally have to be a CIA plot, could just be hungover state dept folks with excuses that snowballed into a tool for the war machine


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27520828 - 10/27/21 10:34 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I agree that the US war machine likely found a mysterious illness in Cuba, just as diplomatic relations were normalizing, quite convenient; but the study I referenced was able to confirm a diagnosis of brain injury in the Canadian diplomats and their families, acquired during their stay in Havana, so it seems fair to say that at least some of the claims of Havana syndrome were the result of unknown neurological injury.

I understand that the US state department is still running with the sonic weapon theory, and that more cases are popping up all over the world from China to Germany. It's entirely likely that these don't all have the same cause; and it's highly possible that the US narrative of a secret communist weapon has contributed to this spread.

Canada's diplomatic relationship with Cuba, on the other hand, is quite friendly. Although the sonic gun narrative still reaches us from down south, it never took hold up here in the same way - probably because Canadians don't view Cubans as a potential enemy. Were you aware of the theory that increased spraying, in response to the arrival of the zika virus to the Americas (2015-16), led to accidental pesticide exposure?

I think you're better off countering the unverified claims of some secret sonic weapon attacking US citizens directly, instead of suggesting the injuries are made up. It's fair to want evidence before believing claims that other countries are committing acts of aggression - but the bar for believing people's claims of injury should be lower, and I'm satisfied it's been met.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27521146 - 10/28/21 07:55 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

A pesticide that’s affected only a few hundred western diplomats across 4 continents? Ehhhh


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521191 - 10/28/21 08:48 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
It doesn’t literally have to be a CIA plot, could just be hungover state dept folks with excuses that snowballed into a tool for the war machine



I'm not sure what you have a problem with here.  Are you not in favor of the government paying for treatment of government employees who are injured while working for the government?


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521273 - 10/28/21 09:58 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
A pesticide that’s affected only a few hundred western diplomats across 4 continents? Ehhhh




As I said: "I understand that the US state department is still running with the sonic weapon theory, and that more cases are popping up all over the world from China to Germany. It's entirely likely that these don't all have the same cause".

Havana syndrome isn't a formal diagnosis - it's the informal name given to a varied group of nonspecific symptoms. I'm not saying every claim of the syndrome was caused by pesticide exposure - but there does appear to be at least a grain of truth here that some people claiming the syndrome did suffer neurological injury, and pesticides were put forth as a plausible theory in a couple dozen of those cases.

Are you upset that state dept employees might be getting away with hangovers, or are you upset that the US government is using claims of an experimental sonic weapon to keep the war machine greased?

If it's the latter, then attacking the claim by calling the injuries made-up is throwing people that may have legitimately suffered illness or injury under the bus. It's really easy to say 'the sonic weapon story is made up' rather than 'the injuries are made up'.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27521306 - 10/28/21 10:24 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Are you upset that state dept employees might be getting away with hangovers, or are you upset that the US government is using claims of an experimental sonic weapon to keep the war machine greased?

If it's the latter, then attacking the claim by calling the injuries made-up is throwing people that may have legitimately suffered illness or injury under the bus. It's really easy to say 'the sonic weapon story is made up' rather than 'the injuries are made up'.




Everyone who’s ever read more than 3 of my posts here know it’s the latter, but those people are already getting healthcare. Me pointing out that the government taking advantage of their purported misfortune isn’t somehow undermining those people, they’ll be just fine. Or they won’t, people die of easily preventable things every day, often in these countries that these “diplomats” are visiting. I won’t be losing any sleep over a few dozen bureaucrats getting migraines just because the media and government have blatantly amplified their migraines well beyond the actually real, easily definable, and completely preventable deaths that happen every single day, on a far larger scale, at the hands of these very people.

It’s like if the CIA was using Colonel Kurtz’ mental illness as an excuse to formally invade Cambodia. Why the fuck do I care about Colonel Kurtz? Why is invading Laos the response here? The government employees who’ve been injured will receive healthcare, and I don’t wanna hear shit about some huge government mobilization to combat this until far bigger problems receive 1/100th of the attention. But we all know why the “Bad Countries XYZ are using death rays on our troops” story gets traction.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521372 - 10/28/21 11:28 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I provided a study that was able to diagnose 'acquired brain trauma' in the Canadian diplomats and their families. You phrasing things as "blatantly amplified [...] migraines" is how you are undermining those people.

Why do you think undermining claims of illness/injury is necessary to counter the “Bad Countries XYZ are using death rays on our troops” story?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27521470 - 10/28/21 12:23 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Because it doesn’t matter if their heads exploded. It’s such a small sample size that leading policy makers can’t even figure out a workable thesis on this absolute gift to imperialist PR.

“Among the couple hundred afflicted, symptoms wildly vary and the causes might be completely different across different continents.”

And yet we are pretending as though this has a singular origin, deployed against a specific set of people for a specific purpose. We don’t know what that origin is, who originated it, or why they’re using it, but just trust us: it’s definitely the Chinese frying Americans’ brains to…..do something so evil we can’t even figure out a feasible enough theory about it.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521516 - 10/28/21 01:05 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

So attack the claim that this has a singular origin, deployed against a specific set of people for a specific purpose. From Gulf war vets to 9/11 first responders, there's a long history of governments denying the validity of illness/injury claims. In fact, unlike down south, it appears like the Canadian government is attempting to minimize the validity of injury claims. I don't see this as a beneficial narrative for us to support either, unless we are absolutely certain of its truth - and we aren't.

How's this for conspiracy: the US gov't has learned that blaming these injury claims on a nebulous enemy is more effective than outright denial - and you're playing right into their hand.

I'll ask again, considering that "Because it doesn’t matter if their heads exploded" doesn't really provide an answer: why do you think undermining claims of illness/injury is necessary to counter the “Bad Countries XYZ are using death rays on our troops” story?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27521628 - 10/28/21 02:26 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Because sympathy in regards to terrorism is what’s moved public opinion to support every bad thing our government has done for my entire lifetime.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521686 - 10/28/21 03:13 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

"Sympathy in regards to terrorism"

Doesn't that come from the specific claim that “Bad Countries XYZ are using death rays on our troops” rather than the general claims of illness/injury?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27521804 - 10/28/21 04:57 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I’m sure they called it Havana Syndrome in order to be objective.


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