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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Havana Syndrome * 1
    #27487559 - 09/30/21 02:14 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Y’all heard about this?

Apparently a sinister enemy (Russia or Cuba or maybe both who knows) have been frying US diplomats with a microwave ray gun and scrambling their brains. It’s become such an issue that Congress just passed a billl UNANIMOUSLY to appropriate funds for the healthcare of these government workers (who already have great healthcare).



Welp, turns out it was all a bunch of bullshit.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/danvergano/havana-syndrome-jason-crickets


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27487609 - 09/30/21 02:57 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I have been saying for years that’s it’s nonsense. It was obviously a ploy to put Cuba back on the shit list.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27487634 - 09/30/21 03:11 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

This has been a strange story from the get go, sounding a lot like it was written by mediocre spy novelist. While I don't know that your source is definitive (yet), I did enjoy the part when they said psychogenic mass psychology effects may have played a role. You think? The people who work in that "industry" do seem to develope paranoid tendencies. I haven't seen the movie "The Conversation" in many decades but I remeber them getting really weired out.

But the House voted 427-0 on the Havana Act bill so everything should be cool.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27488653 - 10/01/21 12:18 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah it’s crazy how functional our legislative process is when it’s trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27520189 - 10/27/21 12:58 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Senator Mark Warner thinks it’s “very very problematic” that we don’t have more intel about the thing that the CIA made up.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/27/mark-warner-havana-syndrome-intel-517331


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27520270 - 10/27/21 02:03 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Although I recognize the likely ulterior motives behind the bipartisanship of the US government, I don't think the claim that Havana syndrome was made up by the CIA is sound.

Two reasons mostly: Canadian diplomats in Cuba were also affected; and we don't share the same tense relationship with Cuba that the US does. I also know that medical studies done by Canadian researchers did confirm that brain injuries occurred during the diplomats stay in Havana; so even if the story of sonic weapons wielded by nefarious communists is false, something still happened to cause injury.

The study I reference concluded that low-doses of neurotoxins from pesticides (the spraying of which increased in 2016 in response to the zika virus) may have been responsible. We won't be able to properly treat the injured, nor prevent future cases, if we prematurely conclude it's a CIA lie.


Havana Syndrome: Neuroanatomical and Neurofunctional Assessment in Acquired Brain Injury Due to Unknown Etiology

Quote:

Results: The clinical presentation, cognitive impairment in the spatial memory domain, positive auditory-vestibular results, degradation of fiber tracts in the fornix on DTI, leaky brain vesselson DCE-MRI and abnormal brain slowing on MEG all support the diagnosis of acquired brain injury in the Canadian diplomats and their families posted in Cuba.

The clinical course, pattern of injury, brain regions involved, cortical and sub-cortical dysfunction, together with a history of common exposure, all raise the hypothesis of recurrent, low-dose exposure to neurotoxins. Notably, lesions evident in networks involving the brain stem, basal forebrain and fornix were highly suggestive of cholinesterase inhibitor intoxication, as the cause of brain injury in our cohort of Canadian diplomats and families. Biochemical analysis of plasma acetyl- and butyryl-cholinesterase activity confirmed lower activity in recently-exposed individuals, further supporting this hypothesis. Toxicological analysis of serum samples using the high-resolution accurate Orbitrap mass spectrometry confirmed the presence of pyrethroid and organophosphate, and their metabolites in exposed individuals.

While proving the source of exposure and cause of injury is difficult, if not impossible at this time point, embassy records show a significant increase in fumigation in recent years with weekly exposure to high dose pesticides in and around many diplomats’ residences. Our results provide a plausible explanation for acquired brain injury secondary to neurotoxin exposure. A multidisciplinary approach may offer new mitigation strategies for rapid diagnosis, reduction of exposure, and potential prevention of future injury.





Edit: replaced cbc article with the actual study


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/27/21 06:26 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27520593 - 10/27/21 06:51 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I’m not buying any of it. A few hundred cases and no real evidence.

At least in the past they’d present fabricated evidence, can’t even get that anymore smh


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Edited by The Ecstatic (10/27/21 07:01 PM)

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27520650 - 10/27/21 07:47 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

What do you mean "no real evidence"? What are you looking for?

The study I linked to certainly provides evidence in support of some very reasonable conclusions. If you're looking for more than tests and scans, the medical researchers went so far as to preform an autopsy on a dog that was brought from Canada to Cuba as a family pet. Why don't you consider any of this to be real evidence?

I know you're aware of COINTELPRO - are you aware of the specific tactic of 'badjacketing'? Although it's not exactly applicable here, I remember you also claimed that anarchists in north-east Asia are CIA involved without providing any evidence, and it's certainly applicable there.

Badjacketing is the tactic of accusing others, without cause or evidence, of being an infiltrator or cooperator. It's a psychological tactic, made all the more potent by the legitimate threat of infiltrators and cooperators, that encourages us to act paranoid. It's been used to great effect in the past - look up Annie Mae Aquash or Kwame Ture. Once again, it's less applicable in this case, but the ease by which you jump to 'CIA plot' is exactly the kind of paranoia that can be taken advantage of.

So I'll ask again: Why don't you consider any of this to be real evidence? Are you suggesting that a team of medical researchers from eastern Canada are CIA cooperators?


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/27/21 08:00 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27520781 - 10/27/21 09:29 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

It doesn’t literally have to be a CIA plot, could just be hungover state dept folks with excuses that snowballed into a tool for the war machine


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27520828 - 10/27/21 10:34 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I agree that the US war machine likely found a mysterious illness in Cuba, just as diplomatic relations were normalizing, quite convenient; but the study I referenced was able to confirm a diagnosis of brain injury in the Canadian diplomats and their families, acquired during their stay in Havana, so it seems fair to say that at least some of the claims of Havana syndrome were the result of unknown neurological injury.

I understand that the US state department is still running with the sonic weapon theory, and that more cases are popping up all over the world from China to Germany. It's entirely likely that these don't all have the same cause; and it's highly possible that the US narrative of a secret communist weapon has contributed to this spread.

Canada's diplomatic relationship with Cuba, on the other hand, is quite friendly. Although the sonic gun narrative still reaches us from down south, it never took hold up here in the same way - probably because Canadians don't view Cubans as a potential enemy. Were you aware of the theory that increased spraying, in response to the arrival of the zika virus to the Americas (2015-16), led to accidental pesticide exposure?

I think you're better off countering the unverified claims of some secret sonic weapon attacking US citizens directly, instead of suggesting the injuries are made up. It's fair to want evidence before believing claims that other countries are committing acts of aggression - but the bar for believing people's claims of injury should be lower, and I'm satisfied it's been met.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27521146 - 10/28/21 07:55 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

A pesticide that’s affected only a few hundred western diplomats across 4 continents? Ehhhh


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521191 - 10/28/21 08:48 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
It doesn’t literally have to be a CIA plot, could just be hungover state dept folks with excuses that snowballed into a tool for the war machine



I'm not sure what you have a problem with here.  Are you not in favor of the government paying for treatment of government employees who are injured while working for the government?


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521273 - 10/28/21 09:58 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
A pesticide that’s affected only a few hundred western diplomats across 4 continents? Ehhhh




As I said: "I understand that the US state department is still running with the sonic weapon theory, and that more cases are popping up all over the world from China to Germany. It's entirely likely that these don't all have the same cause".

Havana syndrome isn't a formal diagnosis - it's the informal name given to a varied group of nonspecific symptoms. I'm not saying every claim of the syndrome was caused by pesticide exposure - but there does appear to be at least a grain of truth here that some people claiming the syndrome did suffer neurological injury, and pesticides were put forth as a plausible theory in a couple dozen of those cases.

Are you upset that state dept employees might be getting away with hangovers, or are you upset that the US government is using claims of an experimental sonic weapon to keep the war machine greased?

If it's the latter, then attacking the claim by calling the injuries made-up is throwing people that may have legitimately suffered illness or injury under the bus. It's really easy to say 'the sonic weapon story is made up' rather than 'the injuries are made up'.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27521306 - 10/28/21 10:24 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Are you upset that state dept employees might be getting away with hangovers, or are you upset that the US government is using claims of an experimental sonic weapon to keep the war machine greased?

If it's the latter, then attacking the claim by calling the injuries made-up is throwing people that may have legitimately suffered illness or injury under the bus. It's really easy to say 'the sonic weapon story is made up' rather than 'the injuries are made up'.




Everyone who’s ever read more than 3 of my posts here know it’s the latter, but those people are already getting healthcare. Me pointing out that the government taking advantage of their purported misfortune isn’t somehow undermining those people, they’ll be just fine. Or they won’t, people die of easily preventable things every day, often in these countries that these “diplomats” are visiting. I won’t be losing any sleep over a few dozen bureaucrats getting migraines just because the media and government have blatantly amplified their migraines well beyond the actually real, easily definable, and completely preventable deaths that happen every single day, on a far larger scale, at the hands of these very people.

It’s like if the CIA was using Colonel Kurtz’ mental illness as an excuse to formally invade Cambodia. Why the fuck do I care about Colonel Kurtz? Why is invading Laos the response here? The government employees who’ve been injured will receive healthcare, and I don’t wanna hear shit about some huge government mobilization to combat this until far bigger problems receive 1/100th of the attention. But we all know why the “Bad Countries XYZ are using death rays on our troops” story gets traction.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521372 - 10/28/21 11:28 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I provided a study that was able to diagnose 'acquired brain trauma' in the Canadian diplomats and their families. You phrasing things as "blatantly amplified [...] migraines" is how you are undermining those people.

Why do you think undermining claims of illness/injury is necessary to counter the “Bad Countries XYZ are using death rays on our troops” story?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27521470 - 10/28/21 12:23 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Because it doesn’t matter if their heads exploded. It’s such a small sample size that leading policy makers can’t even figure out a workable thesis on this absolute gift to imperialist PR.

“Among the couple hundred afflicted, symptoms wildly vary and the causes might be completely different across different continents.”

And yet we are pretending as though this has a singular origin, deployed against a specific set of people for a specific purpose. We don’t know what that origin is, who originated it, or why they’re using it, but just trust us: it’s definitely the Chinese frying Americans’ brains to…..do something so evil we can’t even figure out a feasible enough theory about it.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521516 - 10/28/21 01:05 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

So attack the claim that this has a singular origin, deployed against a specific set of people for a specific purpose. From Gulf war vets to 9/11 first responders, there's a long history of governments denying the validity of illness/injury claims. In fact, unlike down south, it appears like the Canadian government is attempting to minimize the validity of injury claims. I don't see this as a beneficial narrative for us to support either, unless we are absolutely certain of its truth - and we aren't.

How's this for conspiracy: the US gov't has learned that blaming these injury claims on a nebulous enemy is more effective than outright denial - and you're playing right into their hand.

I'll ask again, considering that "Because it doesn’t matter if their heads exploded" doesn't really provide an answer: why do you think undermining claims of illness/injury is necessary to counter the “Bad Countries XYZ are using death rays on our troops” story?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27521628 - 10/28/21 02:26 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Because sympathy in regards to terrorism is what’s moved public opinion to support every bad thing our government has done for my entire lifetime.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521686 - 10/28/21 03:13 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

"Sympathy in regards to terrorism"

Doesn't that come from the specific claim that “Bad Countries XYZ are using death rays on our troops” rather than the general claims of illness/injury?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27521804 - 10/28/21 04:57 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I’m sure they called it Havana Syndrome in order to be objective.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521901 - 10/28/21 06:18 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The long standing tradition of location-based names for these kind of things is certainly flawed - but isn't it kind of a non sequitur here? Even considering the location-based name, it doesn't invoke "sympathy in regards to terrorism" without the additional "this has a singular origin, deployed against a specific set of people for a specific purpose".

So why do you insist on making the general argument? Even if you aren't concerned with the potential of minimizing legitimate health-claims, it's also the weaker argument.

If you claim that Havana syndrome is "the thing that the CIA made up", all I have to do is point out that, in some cases, diagnoses of acquired brain injury have been made - boom! I've successfully cast doubt on your claim that the syndrome isn't real.

If your response is to immediately whittle down your claim by saying the syndrome "doesn’t literally have to be a CIA plot, could just be hungover state dept folks with excuses that snowballed", once again all I have to do is point out the minority of cases where acquired brain injuries were diagnosed - boom! I've cast doubt on your claim that the syndrome was based on exaggerated symptoms.

Even if you eventually focus on arguing against the idea of a secret energy weapon targeting US citizens, you've already had to hedge your initial argument several times - and so psychologically your argument here will seem weaker too, even though this specific argument is actually pretty strong, because I've successfully associated you with a reasonable doubt.

So why not come out the gate with the stronger argument? I've seen nothing to support the idea of a secret energy weapon - this is the weak point - and unlike the relative simplicity of proving a diagnosis of brain injury, there isn't any real counter here. Hammer home the point that nothing concrete exists in support of the energy weapon claim, instead of trying to argue that the reports of injury are made-up or exaggerated.

What benefit do you see in arguing against the general claims of injury, rather than the specific cause?


"Every rock or molotov cocktail thrown should make a very obvious political point. Random violence produces random propaganda results. Why waste even a rock?" - Abbie Hoffman


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27522104 - 10/28/21 08:39 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I’m simply enjoying the media narrative erode away because of how laughably stupid this entire PR campaign is, I’m not trying to win a debate and I obviously don’t think it literally boils down to some exaggerated hangovers.

All in all it’s too insignificant enough of a problem to warrant this much attention, that fact alone should be enough for some skepticism. The way media narratives work means that “ok something IS happening but no one knows WHAT or WHY or WHO and we can’t say if it’s related at all really” isn’t really feasible. To justify the story existing at all means you have to attach some Cold War spycraft cloak and dagger bullshit to it, which means I’m ignoring the merits entirely.  There is zero utility in me trying to thread the rhetorical needle on this, people who buy this story will believe the State Department (and lap dog media)’s line, and the people who don’t won’t. This idea that we can just enter the marketplace of ideas with the logical conclusion made by all available evidence and win the argument is a joke. Go ask the folks in the fall of 2001 how their “ok the taliban is bad but technically they are distinct from al Qaeda and OBL” argument worked. Did they win over vast swaths of support from both pro war and anti war crowds for their dedication to the facts? Or did that amount to jack shit and they were drowned out? I’m not gonna sit here and “well actually” opposition to what is clearly an aggressive imperialist media campaign aimed at demonizing some of the US’ biggest ostensible enemies.  Either way, I’m not moving the needle on this and neither is anyone else posting here so it doesn’t really matter at all.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27522185 - 10/28/21 09:56 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

It was significant enough for you to make this thread, and to bump it after a month of inactivity - but not for us to critically examine our beliefs regarding the topic?

It's not about convincing others, it's about evaluating ourselves.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27522588 - 10/29/21 09:11 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

It’s only significant because the media and government has decided it should be. The fact that they can’t even produce evidence for it, and then get mad at themselves because they can’t, is funny and I thought it worth sharing.


I know you have a deep seated belief that all nation states are bad so it’s important for you to take the State Department’s position on this. After all, why wouldn’t communist Cuba use hypersonic death rays on random US government workers throughout the world? They’re authoritarian.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27522765 - 10/29/21 12:05 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Sure, let's misrepresent my position instead of reconsidering the weak aspects of your own.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I've seen nothing to support the idea of a secret energy weapon [...] Hammer home the point that nothing concrete exists in support of the energy weapon claim, instead of trying to argue that the reports of injury are made-up or exaggerated.




You consider that taking the State Department’s position about "communist hypersonic death rays"?

Fact is you had a shit take where you claimed the syndrome was "the thing that the CIA made up" and I provided both reasoning and supporting evidence for why I don't believe the claims of injury were entirely made up. Maybe you just wanted to participate in an echo chamber where you could misrepresent, mock, and feel smug about it - if so, sorry for bursting your bubble - but this is a fairly unreasonable response you're having to some light criticism of something that "doesn’t really matter at all."


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/29/21 10:43 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27523166 - 10/29/21 06:00 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

pretending this is a serious issue at all might as well being taking their side. As soon as you’ve ceded that, you’ve agreed this is a serious issue worthy of serious discussion. It isn’t.

For someone who regularly cites Chomsky you seem to have a real fuzzy understanding of how consent is manufactured.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27523232 - 10/29/21 06:53 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

You're the one who made this thread, and asked the discussion-prompting question "Y’all heard about this?" - I just responded with my opinion of what I heard. Now you're all up in arms with some 'either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists' bullshit mentality.

You think us discussing the thread subject is playing into the propaganda model? Then don't make a thread next time.

Frankly, I think you're upset that your echo chamber was interrupted, and embarrassed that you got called out for flinging shit at a wall hoping something would stick.



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The thing that the CIA made up.

[...]

It doesn’t literally have to be a CIA plot, could just be hungover state dept folks with excuses that snowballed.

[...]

I obviously don’t think it literally boils down to some exaggerated hangovers.






Jesus Christ, all my original post stated was that I recognize the likely ulterior motives of the US government, but some of the injury claims appear to be legitimate and so we shouldn't just say the entire thing was a fabrication. Who would have thought that would be so controversial...


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27523255 - 10/29/21 07:17 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The entire premise of this thread is making fun of someone else flinging shit at a wall and hoping it would stick.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27523258 - 10/29/21 07:20 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Birds of a feather...


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27523267 - 10/29/21 07:27 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

When I try to invent a global microwave gun attack conspiracy you be sure to call me on it.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27526094 - 11/01/21 07:54 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We've not seen the proof yet.


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Edited by christopera (11/01/21 07:55 AM)

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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: christopera]
    #27526227 - 11/01/21 10:35 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Far as I can tell there isn’t any. Just like the supposed Uyghur genocide. These stories will just fade out of the media cycle and we’ll get new fearmongering conspiracies, like “China is gonna use their new hypersonic nukes to obliterate Taiwan,” or maybe we’ll ramp up the rhetoric against South American socialists again by saying they support narco terrorism (that is: terrorism against our narcotics trafficking).


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27526272 - 11/01/21 11:21 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I have read a number of stories on the Chinese hypersonic missiles, mostly because I am interested in technology and engineering. The hilarious thing to me is that the accounts of the missiles are so incredibly varied. It's all straight speculation. No different than the Havana Syndrome BS, really.

I am sure the US military knows perfectly well what is happening. Our news media is just creating content to sell papers, and drum up support for the MIS.


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Edited by christopera (11/01/21 11:22 AM)

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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: christopera]
    #27526784 - 11/01/21 07:10 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We've not seen the proof yet.



Proof of what exactly - microwave gun attacks, or of neurological injuries of uncertain cause? Because those are two different claims, and I've seen evidence to support the latter and provided it in my initial post here. Perhaps you can do a better job in explaining why you don't agree it qualifies as such (if you don't).


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27526818 - 11/01/21 07:31 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Proof of anything that was intentionally harming diplomats.

According to your article, the Canadians and the Americans seem to disagree on the effects. That, IMO, only makes the entire thing less credible.

I tried to quote, but of course Scribd is a piece of shit and won't let you do it. I'm sure I could fuck around and make it work, but I won't. Suffice it to say, many of the notable results of your own source could be self inflicted. There is no reason to believe that anxiety, depression, and ptsd are the results of some machine inflicting that on the people inside the embassy. If they are all worried and stressed, that's all it would take.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: christopera]
    #27526934 - 11/01/21 09:48 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: christopera] * 1
    #27527354 - 11/02/21 10:13 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

"Proof of anything that was intentionally harming diplomats."

Agreed. That's never been my point.

Although, the study I provided doesn't conclude "anxiety, depression, and ptsd" as the symptoms. Where did you read that? (You can copy-paste if you download the pdf, or just give me a page number reference) I read that "persistent symptoms included cognitive, balance, visual and auditory dysfunction; sleep impairment; and headaches. Test findings included cognitive, vestibular, and oculomotor abnormalities in the majority of individuals." These weren't solely the product of worry and stress - especially when we consider family members and pets were also affected.



@The Ecstatic,

Your article is debunking the notion that a single syndrome has affected hundreds of people around the world - and I agree with the sentiment - but it doesn’t say that the claims of injury are entirely false.

Quote:

"This does not undermine the fact that several people felt unwell," Della Sala explained. "However, before postulating questionable new syndromes, it may prove fruitful to analyze the data for what they tell us, exempt from political prejudices and pressure."






And that brings me to my point. Both of you are still looking at this through political prejudices when you say it's all bullshit - even if your prejudice is towards the US gov't rather than the Cuban gov't. You can see that prejudice in claims like this: "It was obviously a ploy to put Cuba back on the shit list." Canada and Cuba have always had good diplomatic relations, and a huge number of Canadians visit every year - there's no shit list for Cuba to return to. That 'obvious ploy' only makes sense when filtered through a very US-centric view.

Up here the story isn't big news like it seems to be down south - there's no media circus around the normalizing democratic relations with Cuba - there's no ballooning of more cases worldwide. It's highly-localized and looks more like a dispute between injured workers and their employer (the gov't of Canada) over neglectful conditions, rather than anything resembling the rumblings of a war machine. This is what the reporting looks like up here - the idea of a targeted attack or sonic weapon is relegated to a brief mention at the very end - it's not leading the story.

The idea that this is all a fabrication seems no less cloak-and-dagger to me, than the idea of a sonic weapon. It's much more likely that the root cause is fairly mundane, and the differences in attitudes toward Cuba - by both the general public and gov't - are why this story has since progressed so differently between our two countries.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27527498 - 11/02/21 01:13 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The story only exists to advance political prejudice, that’s why the coverage is different here than in Canada. Arguing about whether the injuries are made up, valid, consistent, or whatever else is missing the point of the story’s existence: to make regular people believe that our Enemies have secret undetectable advanced weaponry that they’re currently employing against us.

Imagine an out of the blue media campaign with headlines like “Mysterious Weapon Is Harming US Troops Along Iranian Border.” It doesn’t matter whether injuries are actually happening, if they’re happening due to a single cause, or whether one of our allies did a medical study about one such injury. The average person will look at that headline and conclude that Iran is doing terrorism to us, which is the entire point of the media campaign.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27527578 - 11/02/21 02:23 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I agree, but that doesn't mean we should embrace falsehoods in our own rhetoric. You've yet to explain why focusing on the mysterious weapon claim would be any less effective than denying the entire thing.

The attack on September 11th was used to justify a war in Iraq. Calling out the lies, prejudices, and manipulation that were involved is absolutely appropriate - but some people go so far as to claim the entire thing was a US gov't plot. I haven't seen any benefit come out of that. If anything, the more fringe theories probably harmed the likelihood that the average person would take the more reasonable criticisms seriously.

Other than the scale of events involved, isn't your unwillingness to negotiate the lies from the facts in this case essentially the same?


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27527593 - 11/02/21 02:32 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

No, because 9/11 actually happened. And neither the people who denied it happening altogether nor the people who claimed it did happen but that we shouldn’t go to war over it stopped said wars.

We don’t know whether these “attacks” are actually happening.
That’s step one. Step two would be proving they actually happened and are related. Step three would be proving them actually happening and being related and done with malicious intent. Step four is proving all that AND that the party/parties responsible are state actors. Step five would be all that happening under the authority of the heads of those states (China, Russia, Cuba, whomever).

They can’t even get to step one so, no, I’m not going to entertain the possibility of anything further, especially considering that’s the not so implicit goal of the story existing. Like I said, they used to at least give us a fake explanation of a real event to justify imperial aggression (9/11 happened because OBL and Saddam hate our freedoms so let’s kill them). Now not even the events are real. A better analogy would be if the government lied about a terrorist attack to get us into a war but also there was no evidence that a terrorist attack took place.


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Edited by The Ecstatic (11/02/21 02:38 PM)

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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27527682 - 11/02/21 03:50 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
We don’t know whether these “attacks” are actually happening. That’s step one.



Step one is whether people were injured - not whether these “attacks” are actually happening.

The diagnosis of acquired brain injury lends support to the claim that people were injured. To some extent, that actually happened.

It doesn’t lend support to the belief that these injuries were the result of a targeted attack; it doesn't lend support to the belief that every claimed instance of the syndrome resulted in a diagnosis of brain injury; it doesn't lend support to the belief that every claimed instance of the syndrome has the same cause.

Considering the public availability of these diagnoses (like my supplied research study which, btw, was not mentioned as one of the debunked studies in the article you recently shared), what is the benefit from insisting that nothing happened?


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27528018 - 11/02/21 08:02 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Because nothing did happen. The “thing” that’s happening according to the media framework is that nefarious state actors are harming Western diplomats with some mysterious weapon.

It’s like if I went to a neighborhood watch meeting and said you were robbing people for being trump supporters, but then my only evidence is that one person, Doris, (who’s trustworthy) has confirmed they are missing items from their house.

I can’t prove:

- whether multiple people were robbed
- whether anyone was robbed for one purpose
- whether the one trustworthy person was actually robbed and didn’t just misplace something
- whether you were involved at all or have some political motivation for a series of supposed robbings


Any reasonable person would see me making this claim (that’s about 5 steps removed from the scant evidence that actually exists) and conclude that I’m just trying to get the neighborhood watch to hate you, especially if I bring it up every single week for a year and never have any new evidence. Now, sure, we can try to figure out whether someone robbed Doris or if she’s just suffering from early onset dementia, but something tells me most people would conclude I don’t give a shit about Doris or her missing items, I’m just desperately trying to slander you.

“Hey buddy shut the fuck up about shiva being a thief you have no evidence at all.”

“Oh wow guess you don’t care about Doris.”

Lol. No. Doris will be fine. The millionaires who have fallen victim to these mysterious head injuries (a type of injury that didn’t exist before 2019) will be fine.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27528140 - 11/02/21 09:35 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

"Because nothing did happen. [...] A type of injury that didn’t exist before 2019. "

This is exactly the thing I'm criticizing. People were diagnosed with acquired brain injury - not Havana syndrome - and ABI is a type of injury that certainly did exist before 2019. The only thing that's new is the term 'Havana syndrome' being used to informally label a grouping of health-complaints occurring in Havana with no immediately apparent cause.

It seems neither of our analogies are perfect, because I didn't intend to stress the idea of a targeted attack - and the professional diagnosis of a team of medical researchers is not equivalent to the witness statement of a trustworthy person. A diagnosis should be evidence based, and the study I provided details that process, while also allowing for peer review.

And furthermore, as I already stated, the story that "nefarious state actors are harming Western diplomats with some mysterious weapon" is a product of Cuba-USA relations. It's not the same case here in Canada, where the rhetoric that 'nothing happened' isn't protecting Cubans from Canadian aggression - it's denying Canadians proper compensation for injuries they (and their families) recieved because of possible negligence on the part of their employer. You might be fine shrugging them off as millionaires, but most embassy workers are rank-n-file earning middle-class wages - not top diplomats.

So what should I do? Concern myself only with US political maneuvering, and say nothing happened? Or craft a message that doesn't throw anyone under the bus, and say that targeted sonic weapon attacks never happened?

And sure, given the context of you living in the USA, maybe you don't think a disclaimer is necessary when discussing the “thing” that’s happening - but when I bring up a different perspective, is "I'm not buying any of it" a reasonable response?


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27528502 - 11/03/21 08:52 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Treat this story as you would any other report of some person or persons getting head injuries. “Oh I feel bad for them, hope they recover.” But you can’t just discard the ton of baggage that’s become inseparable from this story. That’s my point.

To the extent that injuries are happening, those people are receiving medical care. Yet there’s clearly a sinister effort to push this story into the public consciousness, so yeah if it walks like a duck..


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27528621 - 11/03/21 10:44 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

It does rate a 10 on the weirdness scale. And congress keeps bringing it up. The rayguns arms race to follow.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27528867 - 11/03/21 02:48 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Treat this story as you would any other report of some person or persons getting head injuries. “Oh I feel bad for them, hope they recover.” But you can’t just discard the ton of baggage that’s become inseparable from this story. That’s my point.



I feel like I am treating this story like I would any other story of head injuries - which is to defend their validity after seeing them dismissed over political prejudices. I've also acknowledged the baggage from the very beginning: "Although I recognize the likely ulterior motives behind the bipartisanship of the US government, I don't think the claim that Havana syndrome was made up by the CIA is sound."

What else are you looking for?



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
To the extent that injuries are happening, those people are receiving medical care. Yet there’s clearly a sinister effort to push this story into the public consciousness, so yeah if it walks like a duck..



Except, unlike in the USA, this isn't happening in Canada - that's why the injured diplomats are currently suing the Canadian gov't. You're still situating yourself in the US narrative (even if it's in opposition) and expecting the rest of the world to conform. Destroying US cultural hegemony starts with you.

It could even be argued that the politicization of these injuries by the USA gov't is responsible for this, because any precautionary response by the Canadian gov't (like removing embassy employees and their families from Havana) has been interpreted as a "behaviour [that] favours those who in the United States use this issue to attack and denigrate Cuba". Damned by the Americans saying it's a targeted attack - damned by the Americans saying nothing happened.

Sure, it's less of a problem than the threat posed to the Cuban people - but it's costs you absolutely nothing to acknowledge the greater perspective.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (11/03/21 02:54 PM)

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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27528982 - 11/03/21 03:55 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I honestly can’t tell what is bothering you: that I whimsically dismissed the validity of these injuries? Unfortunately, my political opinions arent broadcast to billions of people and don’t hold the weight necessary to foment global military actions. It’s a propaganda campaign and id rather people see someone denounce it as such than some unspecified middle ground where I admit there’s something fishy going on. These people aren’t beholden to some moral ethos or dedication to truth and I’m not gonna be their useful idiot and police the terms of debate around their obvious scheme.

I remember posting here a few years into the Iraq War, when it was made clear to all that there were no WMDs, and zappaisgod posting pictures of rusted out chemical drums. You see, those old drums stored chemical weapons maybe at some point, and technically those are weapons of mass destruction, so technically Bush and Cheney didn’t lie. Do you see why this admission, although perhaps technically correct, is problematic? It serves no purpose other than to give cover for the lies that got us into Iraq.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27529001 - 11/03/21 04:15 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

What bothers me?

You've already stated multiple times in this thread that you don't expect anything we post to move the needle of public opinion - in that, I agree - so it's not about your actions in the greater scheme of things.

I'm bothered by what seems to be your tendency to see things in black and white, when it comes to opposing US foreign policy. Even in a casual conversation on an internet forum, with no real stakes, you shut down my perspective pretty hard because it didn't take the absolute opposing view against the US state. The reason that bothers me is because things rarely break down into such simple terms.

I saw the same tendency in how quickly you attributed north-east Asian anarchists to CIA cooperators. I understand that the US will support groups from fundamentalist terrorists all the way to pro-democracy groups - but does that necessarily mean that individuals or groups in that global region, who may have good reason to be more concerned with the actions of the Chinese gov't (because that's the region they live in) over the actions of the US gov't, automatically CIA cooperators because their interests align to a limited extent?

Is Rojava an enemy of freedom because their interests in the region partially align with those of the USA? Is Assad a freedom fighter because his interests run opposed to those of the USA?

I understand why you would want to personally focus on opposing the actions of the US state - but you need to realize that things don't always divide so cleanly.




Edit: "It serves no purpose other than to give cover for the lies that got us into Iraq."

Sure and you don't see me making that argument, but in this case my argument serves a purpose - you can't access proper healthcare treatments, nor qualify for workers compensation, if your injuries are attributed to a fake illness.

Edited by shivas.wisdom (11/03/21 04:18 PM)

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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27529128 - 11/03/21 05:50 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Of course things aren’t so black and white, I’m saying that arguing for a gray area, historically, only ever lends credence to the idea that both black and white arguments have equal merit. “Teach the controversy” and all that.  Imagine you found some document that proved only 5.8 million Jews died in the Holocaust.  Of what utility is discussing that truth? Who benefits from such a discussion?

I’m sure Russia and Cuba have secret, morally unsound, programs.
I’m sure China shits on civil liberties in Xinjiang.

But who are the people who spend their time pointing these things out, often exaggerating the evidence to great degrees? What are their goals? They don’t need my help.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27530438 - 11/04/21 05:58 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not talking about splitting hairs as an underhanded rhetorical technique - your holocaust example is as irrelevant to my argument as the Iraqi WMD one. I don't see any utility in arguing those technicalities, but an anarchist living in Cuba, China, or Russia absolutely has cause to focus on opposing the State they reside in, instead of focusing on opposing the USA.

And you're still displaying that flawed absolutist approach - "who are the people who spend their time pointing these things out?" - lumping anyone who criticizes Cuba, China, or Russia into a single 'they' that encompasses American corporate media all the way to anarchist individuals.

Who is 'they'? In this thread it was me, and despite everything you know about my political beliefs and the fact that I had already explicitly distanced myself from the sonic weapon story multiple times, you still accused me of taking the State Department’s position. In another thread, it was anarchists in north-east Asia, who you casually labelled CIA cooperators. They don't deserve your help solidarity?

International solidarity is, imo, a pretty important aspect of radical politics. Nationality divides us just like race or religion - so why shouldn't radicals in China have your solidarity? Why shouldn't you benefit from their solidarity? It won't happen if you only see things in terms of 'good for the US gov't vs bad for the US gov't'; or if you accuse anyone existing outside that dichotomy of being cooperators of the US gov't.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27530687 - 11/04/21 10:55 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Anarchists in Cuba don’t run CNN or the New York Times


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27530764 - 11/05/21 01:58 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

For sure, but why do you think pointing that out is relevant here? I believe this is the first time either CNN or the NYT have been brought up.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27531092 - 11/05/21 09:20 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Why is it relevant? Because it’s a deliberate sabre rattling campaign being waged by those outlets against those states.

And the key difference here between Havana Syndrome and something like the US media spotlighting Chinese crackdowns on HK protestors is that there’s no evidence for Havana Syndrome. It’s not like Cuban anarchists started getting brain hemorrhages and CNN is amplifying that message to harm the Cuban government, CNN is just making shit up whole cloth (or playing stenographer to State Dept imaginations).


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27531176 - 11/05/21 10:30 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I certainly have provided evidence that Canadian diplomats started getting brain hemorrhages. CNN may be amplifying that message to harm the Cuban government, but CNN isn't just making shit up whole cloth. Why do you insist on clinging to this untruth?

Besides, were you highlighting 'no evidence for made up things' when you said "I'm sure [...] Cuba [has] secret, morally unsound, programs. [...] But who are the people who spend their time pointing these things out, often exaggerating the evidence to great degrees? What are their goals? They don’t need my help."

So why don't we instead look at something that both Cuban anarchists and American corporate media were talking about - the Cuban protests from last summer.

Depending on the corporate media you watch, you were likely to see two different explanations put forth: the first was that these protests were the result of the policies of a communist gov't - the second would be that these protests were the result of the US embargo. A third explanation, that of American anti-Imperialists, held that the protests were the result of covert intervention by the US gov't to weaken an enemy from within. I wonder which camp you found yourself in.

What were anarchists in Cuba talking about? Although most of the writing from the region is hard to access if you don't speak Spanish (I don't speak it), the Taller Libertario Alfredo López (Alfredo López Libertarian Workshop) - part of the Anarchist Federation of the Caribbean and Central America, and one of the participants in the ABRA Social Center and Libertarian Library - published a translated statement. Let's hear them out (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Cuba: The end of the social enchantment of the “Revolution”

The repressive social enchantment that kept a great part of the international left pacified has melted away. Under the “Cuban Revolution,” and contrary to its benign image, it has publicly exposed, in all its crudeness and repressive grandeur, the nature of the “Cuban State.” The same Cuban State that created—to face Yankee imperialism—an omnipresent political police that fights the same society it controls. The same Cuban State that destroyed—in the name of socialism—all the peoples’ and workers’ organizations that, with their history of struggle, made a daily reality the socialist triumphs the State claims as its own. That same Cuban State that has made “solidarity” into a brand of international identity, all the while it keeps us drowning in the distrust and fear among neighbors. The same Cuban State that—under the worsening Yankee blockade—builds more hotels for foreign tourists than the infrastructure needed to produce food, fruit, and milk. The same Cuban State that has produced the only vaccines in Latin America against COVID-19 yet keeps its healthcare personnel in a condition of employees of the political police.

This Cuban State in these days of July 2021 has shown us what it is: a typical oligarchy, interested only in maintaining its absolute power at all costs; a vulgar kleptocracy with humanist and enlightened pretentions; a pyramid of power as solid and unequal as the pyramids of the Egyptian theocracies, but surrounded by the sands of paradisical beaches.

Right now, to have geopolitical arguments about the place of Cuba in the global imperialist plan, to argue that the antigovernment protests in Cuba are inevitably paid by the Cuban right in Miami, to yell that the protesters are just delinquents looking to loot, that the real popular revolutionaries are with their government—all of these are arguments that describe a great deal of the reality, but they don’t express everything with just one angle. The Cuban people has as much right and as much need to protest as those of Colombia and Chile. What’s the difference: that they’re oligarchies with different origins? With practices that are more or less brutal? With ideological shades more or less distinguishable? With postures that are more or less servile to the United States? With ideals more or less sublime to justify their privileges? All these huge differences between the Colombian, Chilean, and Cuban oligarchies are reduced to zero when, on a beautiful Sunday morning, you discover that, besides the gangster oligarchies in Colombia and Chile, the Cuban oligarchy—faced with an unarmed populace—is armed to the teeth, a little more or a little less, to crush you and your siblings, your body and your mind, if it even crosses your mind to question a word of the normalcy they’ve built.

Everything that the Cuban State has done to produce the national vaccines against COVID-19, all the labor funding, all the salary increases that it offered to many sectors in the middle of the pandemic, it all has at once evaporated. This is not only because of the death spiral of inflation and the endemic food scarcity in Cuba, but also because it has made visible that all of it was part of the grisly structure of “repressive tolerance,” something that any decent person in Cuba could describe, without having to read any brilliant book on counterculture. To those who come to sugarcoat that repressive tolerance in this country and hold up the illusion of militarized harmony, we can calmly define them as the new face of what shouldn’t have a place in our future. Those who, in the name of a future democracy or the well-functioning of the economy, come to discredit the affinities and fellowship and energies that have emerged in the protests, or would belittle what happened these last days as “simple vandalism by the dregs of society,” speak in the name and with the language of the decrepit oligarchies that once again shamelessly dare to speak in our country.

The “masses” have again become the “People,” with all their light and shadow, to stop obeying the heavy chains of authority, and have again begun to trust their emotions, affinities, and the basic ability to think together, who have made a comeback in disobedience and solidarity among equals, in the middle of the spiral of violence, the pandemic, and scarcity. This is the new reality that has been born in Cuba these days of July 2021, and in that new reality, as anarchists in Cuba, we'd like to consider ourselves part of it.

Taller Libertario Alfredo López









Who are the people who spend their time pointing these things out? Not just CNN or the NYT - despite your premature conclusion. So are they just imperial pawns undeserving of help, or humans with self-agency who deserve our solidarity?


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (11/05/21 11:32 AM)

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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27531276 - 11/05/21 12:14 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The most recent protests in Cuba are a good example of a real thing happening that US media has reported on for ulterior motives.

Now, if US media saw the recent protests and began reporting on them under the premise of “Cubans are mad at communist government satanic child sacrifice program,” with the evidence of “some children have disappeared,” then id likely have a similar problem with it as I do Havana Syndrome.


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Edited by The Ecstatic (11/05/21 12:24 PM)

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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27531282 - 11/05/21 12:25 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The initial injuries at the Havana embassy are a real thing that happened too - per my provided diagnosis of brain injury - which the US media has since reported on for ulterior motives.

In your example, the better response would be 'there's no communist government satanic child sacrifice program' - not that 'there's no reason for the Cubans to protest' .

Why, in this case, do you consider the better response to be 'there's no injuries' instead of 'there's no communist government secret sonic weapon program'?


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27531332 - 11/05/21 01:30 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The better response is to dismiss the story altogether because there’s no evidence that what’s being reported is actually happening.

I’d love it if some enterprising young investigative journalist found the real culprit of these injuries, but it’s really hard to prove a negative.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27531398 - 11/05/21 02:38 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

What story is being reported on without evidence? Be more clear here. Are you referring to the story of targeted sonic weapon attacks, or the story of embassy workers being injured without a clear source of origin? Because, for the umpteenth time, the later certainly has evidence. If you disagree with the conclusions of the medical experts, perhaps you can explain why.

You don't need political maneuvering to create this kind of story. Here's another one currently going around up here: Eight people from N.B. mystery illness cluster may have been misdiagnosed, new research says - only in this case, they have the benefit of not having their injuries misrepresented out of political expediency.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27531439 - 11/05/21 02:57 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Political expediency is why the story exists in the first place. “Canadian person suffers brain injury” is not a global headline outside of the forced context.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27531485 - 11/05/21 03:33 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I just provided another mystery illness story that exists void of any political maneuvering. Guess what? It's a global headline.

UK - Doctors investigate mystery brain disease in Canada
USA - Mysterious Brain Syndrome Stumps Canadian Doctors
India - Mysterious brain illness reported in 48 people in Canada, here's what we know so far


Perhaps you can answer this: what would you consider evidence that embassy workers in Havana were injured, without an immediately apparent cause?


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27531534 - 11/05/21 04:05 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

48 > 1


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27531662 - 11/05/21 05:27 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Do you think only one Canadian reported injury? The study I referenced examined 11 “recently exposed” - tested within one month of returning from Havana - and 14 “remotely exposed” - tested 1-19 months after returning from Havana. So what's the sweet spot between 25 and 48 where it suddenly becomes real for you?

Also, no comment on being wrong about non-political Canadian brain injuries being global headlines? Just going to keep throwing shit at the wall by being wrong about 48>1 too?

I'll ask again: what would you consider evidence that embassy workers in Havana were injured, without an immediately apparent cause?


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27531711 - 11/05/21 06:14 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

https://www.smerconish.com/exclusive-content/havana-syndrome-and-the-bad-science-behind-it

I'm not saying this is the interpretation to believe, or that that article even reaches a definite conclusion. But the author indicates that suggestion was frequently provided to the victims before the symptoms occurred. Maybe some of the cases are real with sinister causes and others are not. I don't know.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27531826 - 11/05/21 07:53 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I think it's important to note that the Canadian study I referenced hasn't been mentioned as one of these flawed/weak studies - and if you compare the studies, the Dalhousie university one is much greater in scope than the US counterparts.

I think the most significant, with regards to the mass suggestion conclusion, is that a dog was also affected:

Quote:

10. Neuropathological findings in an exposed dog:

An exposed dog belonging to one of the diplomatic families developed changes in behavior during their time in Havana, specifically aggression and epileptic seizures. Consequently, he was euthanized in Ottawa on September 2018. Sections from his brain were processed and analyzed by independent experts in the Koret School of Veterinary Medicine and Weitzman Institute for Science (Rehovot, Israel).

[Medical mumbo jumbo follows...]






But for sure, even medical experts can be wrong. There hasn't been any confirmation of cause - only a series of educated guesses. The conclusion of the study I reference (pesticide exposure) has also been challenged. The mystery illness cluster from New Brunswick has been similarly challenged - even without the additional political implication, these kind of medical problems don't always have clear solutions and sometimes end up being nothing at all.

Still, we shouldn't allow political prejudice to influence our opinion of health issues, and I think that's clearly at play here.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27531948 - 11/05/21 09:57 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Do you think only one Canadian reported injury? The study I referenced examined 11 “recently exposed” - tested within one month of returning from Havana - and 14 “remotely exposed” - tested 1-19 months after returning from Havana. So what's the sweet spot between 25 and 48 where it suddenly becomes real for you?

Also, no comment on being wrong about non-political Canadian brain injuries being global headlines? Just going to keep throwing shit at the wall by being wrong about 48>1 too?

I'll ask again: what would you consider evidence that embassy workers in Havana were injured, without an immediately apparent cause?




I’d never seen any news programs discussing those Canadian brain injuries, nor seen US Congress pass unanimous bills appropriating funds for victims, nor had military spokespeople condemning these injuries with thinly veiled accusations of state sponsored terrorism.

It doesn’t matter what id consider evidence, I’m not deciding which medical stories merit airtime, or the legislative authority of US Congress, and the latter is not deciding legislation based on medical necessity, clearly.

It boils down to this: the evidence is scant, and I have no reason to take the US government or their media lackeys word on it when it’s clear they’d present incriminating evidence on those parties if they had any, which prompted the Senator’s frustration that I linked pages ago. You wanna be mad because I’m not paying enough respect to the 1%ers who may or may not have gotten brain damage before, during, or after visiting Cuba, okay. Has anyone even died lol? There is zero proportionality to this story and that alone should be raising alarms. If it’ll make you feel better, just know that my heart goes out to all people everywhere who are injured unjustly, either physically or mentally. There, now we can stop pretending I’m some cold hearted sociopath who wants Cuba to torture people without recourse because it allows me to take a rhetorical position opposed to the United States’.  I feel like this is the argument racists make when I tell them to stfu about FBI crime statistics. “Oh you don’t care about the black people being shot, how terrible!” No I’m just aware of how certain stories are elevated to pursue certain agendas, like the local news ignoring widespread death at the hands of corporations to instead spotlight black on black violence to subconsciously convince the general public that their main concern should be black people. I simply don’t see the point in entertaining this story at all because one, all the supposed victims come from a place of privilege, my dismissal isn’t harming them at all, and two, there’s a clear pattern of lies and bad science at play throughout the timeline of this story. I’ll do the same thing when I see that a politician’s house was vandalized by anarchists or a cop claims some black teenager was charging at him or the OAS declares election fraud when a leftist party wins an election. I’ll continue to make these assumptions because they’re safe assumptions, and because it serves no purpose to take these peoples’ word on it. There are exceptions, there are times where I’ll make these assumptions and they’ll be wrong, but this is the risk you take in a world where most of the media you consume is designed to bend your will towards a goal you’d not otherwise seek.  These parties don’t need my help manufacturing consent for their agenda and no matter how many different ways you try to frame it, your trying to find the needle of truth in this haystack only serves to validate that agenda. :shrug: there is no point to me weeping for these injury victims, they’re gonna get all the help that is available on this planet to recover, they don’t need apostles for sympathy crusading through the Internet. They’ll be fine.


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Edited by The Ecstatic (11/05/21 10:03 PM)

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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27531965 - 11/05/21 10:25 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

"It doesn’t matter what id consider evidence,"

I think you don't want to answer the question 'what would you consider evidence?' because you arrived at your current conclusion using political prejudice, and there isn't any way for you to backtrack at this point.

It's pretty obvious you've let your political prejudices guide you here, considering you didn't even put in the cursory effort necessary to know it wasn't just one person affected before confidently posting "48 > 1" in dismissal.

This has never been about your casual dismissal harming others. It's about holding ourselves to our own standards - but considering you "think advancing the ball is a good thing even if you have to bend your own rules to do so", I doubt you actually have any.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27532243 - 11/06/21 08:43 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

No shit I let my political prejudices guide me to my conclusions, I’m not omniscient and I don’t trust the US government or the corporate media to disseminate evidence objectively.

Either way, state department officials with the best healthcare on the planet don’t need my sympathy, so on the off chance that this isn’t a deliberate lie to antagonize America’s enemies, there is nothing lost, so I’m not going to lose sleep over it.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27540636 - 11/12/21 02:13 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I took some time to think about why this discussion is getting so heated, because it doesn't really make sense to me. My friends tell me that I have a tendency to miss the trees for the forest - my thinking is organized around patterns, and doesn't leave much room for exceptions to the rule - and so I think the problem is one of perspective.

For an analogy, let's consider rolling through a stop sign. In general, this is an unsafe act - but there is a significant difference between doing this when there is heavy traffic, versus doing this in the middle of the night when the roads are empty. Many people will look at the specific situation and conclude that sometimes it's okay to bend the rule. I, on the other hand, don't see much value in this - there is always a possibility my perception will be wrong, and so it's not a habit I want to form.

So you're looking at the specific situation of being prejudiced against claims made by the US gov't towards their traditional 'enemies', whereas I'm looking at the general situation of allowing prejudice to form our beliefs.

This is then exasperated by my belief that the means must reflect the ends, and your belief that the ends can justify the means. Because of this, using prejudice to form a belief (the means) can be justified by you if it brings us to a reasonable conclusion (the ends) - but not by me.

And this is the apparently unbridgeable chasm we're grappling with - so I'm going to preface this by making it clear that I agree with much of your conclusions regarding the validity of Havana syndrome. What I disagree with is how you reached those conclusions.

There are two things in particular that you demonstrated in this thread: (1) dismissing evidence without actually examining it, and (2) not having a standard of evidence that would change your belief.

We're not robots - to be human is to have bias - but prejudice is something more. Bias means that I have an inclination for or against a belief - prejudice means that I have a preconceived belief that is not based on actual experience or reason. I'm biased towards anarchism, and so I have an inclination to believe the pro-anarchist position - but because I'm aware of my bias, I make sure to listen to the anti-anarchist position rather than just dismiss it outright - this is how you avoid bias turning into prejudice.

It's completely reasonable to be initially suspicious of the Havana syndrome claim - but your out of hand dismissal of purported evidence and inability to express a reasonable standard of evidence suggests that your belief is based on prejudice, rather than reason or evidence. Forming prejudiced beliefs - even if they got you to the correct destination this time - is not a habit we should allow ourselves to fall into, for down that path lies dogmatism. Hopefully this makes my being so upset over an apparent nonissue more understandable.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27540711 - 11/12/21 03:25 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I hope I didn’t give off the impression that I don’t get your perspective, because I do. And I completely understand why my point of view troubles you because it is a slippery slope. But like I said, there are no stakes in me dismissing this story. US diplomats are in no danger of losing their healthcare because a communist on the internet doesn’t believe them.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27625684 - 01/20/22 11:22 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27625771 - 01/20/22 12:26 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

That's literally the subtitle of the article. "But maybe it still is"

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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: Kryptos]
    #27625813 - 01/20/22 12:59 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Well they can’t say for sure.

Perhaps they’re firing the lasers from teacups in orbit. We just don’t know.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27626287 - 01/20/22 07:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Is it just me or did the first paragraph say they ruled it out, and the second paragraph said they can't rule it out?


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27626327 - 01/20/22 08:27 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Dude, it's the CIA. It's like, Schrodinger's cat but with unlimited government-funded drugs.

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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: Kryptos]
    #27626717 - 01/21/22 07:12 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Now the Senate is mad that the CIA isn’t being CIA enough



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