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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27521901 - 10/28/21 06:18 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

The long standing tradition of location-based names for these kind of things is certainly flawed - but isn't it kind of a non sequitur here? Even considering the location-based name, it doesn't invoke "sympathy in regards to terrorism" without the additional "this has a singular origin, deployed against a specific set of people for a specific purpose".

So why do you insist on making the general argument? Even if you aren't concerned with the potential of minimizing legitimate health-claims, it's also the weaker argument.

If you claim that Havana syndrome is "the thing that the CIA made up", all I have to do is point out that, in some cases, diagnoses of acquired brain injury have been made - boom! I've successfully cast doubt on your claim that the syndrome isn't real.

If your response is to immediately whittle down your claim by saying the syndrome "doesn’t literally have to be a CIA plot, could just be hungover state dept folks with excuses that snowballed", once again all I have to do is point out the minority of cases where acquired brain injuries were diagnosed - boom! I've cast doubt on your claim that the syndrome was based on exaggerated symptoms.

Even if you eventually focus on arguing against the idea of a secret energy weapon targeting US citizens, you've already had to hedge your initial argument several times - and so psychologically your argument here will seem weaker too, even though this specific argument is actually pretty strong, because I've successfully associated you with a reasonable doubt.

So why not come out the gate with the stronger argument? I've seen nothing to support the idea of a secret energy weapon - this is the weak point - and unlike the relative simplicity of proving a diagnosis of brain injury, there isn't any real counter here. Hammer home the point that nothing concrete exists in support of the energy weapon claim, instead of trying to argue that the reports of injury are made-up or exaggerated.

What benefit do you see in arguing against the general claims of injury, rather than the specific cause?


"Every rock or molotov cocktail thrown should make a very obvious political point. Random violence produces random propaganda results. Why waste even a rock?" - Abbie Hoffman


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27522104 - 10/28/21 08:39 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I’m simply enjoying the media narrative erode away because of how laughably stupid this entire PR campaign is, I’m not trying to win a debate and I obviously don’t think it literally boils down to some exaggerated hangovers.

All in all it’s too insignificant enough of a problem to warrant this much attention, that fact alone should be enough for some skepticism. The way media narratives work means that “ok something IS happening but no one knows WHAT or WHY or WHO and we can’t say if it’s related at all really” isn’t really feasible. To justify the story existing at all means you have to attach some Cold War spycraft cloak and dagger bullshit to it, which means I’m ignoring the merits entirely.  There is zero utility in me trying to thread the rhetorical needle on this, people who buy this story will believe the State Department (and lap dog media)’s line, and the people who don’t won’t. This idea that we can just enter the marketplace of ideas with the logical conclusion made by all available evidence and win the argument is a joke. Go ask the folks in the fall of 2001 how their “ok the taliban is bad but technically they are distinct from al Qaeda and OBL” argument worked. Did they win over vast swaths of support from both pro war and anti war crowds for their dedication to the facts? Or did that amount to jack shit and they were drowned out? I’m not gonna sit here and “well actually” opposition to what is clearly an aggressive imperialist media campaign aimed at demonizing some of the US’ biggest ostensible enemies.  Either way, I’m not moving the needle on this and neither is anyone else posting here so it doesn’t really matter at all.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27522185 - 10/28/21 09:56 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

It was significant enough for you to make this thread, and to bump it after a month of inactivity - but not for us to critically examine our beliefs regarding the topic?

It's not about convincing others, it's about evaluating ourselves.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27522588 - 10/29/21 09:11 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

It’s only significant because the media and government has decided it should be. The fact that they can’t even produce evidence for it, and then get mad at themselves because they can’t, is funny and I thought it worth sharing.


I know you have a deep seated belief that all nation states are bad so it’s important for you to take the State Department’s position on this. After all, why wouldn’t communist Cuba use hypersonic death rays on random US government workers throughout the world? They’re authoritarian.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27522765 - 10/29/21 12:05 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Sure, let's misrepresent my position instead of reconsidering the weak aspects of your own.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I've seen nothing to support the idea of a secret energy weapon [...] Hammer home the point that nothing concrete exists in support of the energy weapon claim, instead of trying to argue that the reports of injury are made-up or exaggerated.




You consider that taking the State Department’s position about "communist hypersonic death rays"?

Fact is you had a shit take where you claimed the syndrome was "the thing that the CIA made up" and I provided both reasoning and supporting evidence for why I don't believe the claims of injury were entirely made up. Maybe you just wanted to participate in an echo chamber where you could misrepresent, mock, and feel smug about it - if so, sorry for bursting your bubble - but this is a fairly unreasonable response you're having to some light criticism of something that "doesn’t really matter at all."


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/29/21 10:43 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27523166 - 10/29/21 06:00 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

pretending this is a serious issue at all might as well being taking their side. As soon as you’ve ceded that, you’ve agreed this is a serious issue worthy of serious discussion. It isn’t.

For someone who regularly cites Chomsky you seem to have a real fuzzy understanding of how consent is manufactured.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27523232 - 10/29/21 06:53 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

You're the one who made this thread, and asked the discussion-prompting question "Y’all heard about this?" - I just responded with my opinion of what I heard. Now you're all up in arms with some 'either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists' bullshit mentality.

You think us discussing the thread subject is playing into the propaganda model? Then don't make a thread next time.

Frankly, I think you're upset that your echo chamber was interrupted, and embarrassed that you got called out for flinging shit at a wall hoping something would stick.



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The thing that the CIA made up.

[...]

It doesn’t literally have to be a CIA plot, could just be hungover state dept folks with excuses that snowballed.

[...]

I obviously don’t think it literally boils down to some exaggerated hangovers.






Jesus Christ, all my original post stated was that I recognize the likely ulterior motives of the US government, but some of the injury claims appear to be legitimate and so we shouldn't just say the entire thing was a fabrication. Who would have thought that would be so controversial...


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27523255 - 10/29/21 07:17 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

The entire premise of this thread is making fun of someone else flinging shit at a wall and hoping it would stick.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27523258 - 10/29/21 07:20 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Birds of a feather...


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27523267 - 10/29/21 07:27 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

When I try to invent a global microwave gun attack conspiracy you be sure to call me on it.


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27526094 - 11/01/21 07:54 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We've not seen the proof yet.


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Edited by christopera (11/01/21 07:55 AM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: christopera]
    #27526227 - 11/01/21 10:35 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Far as I can tell there isn’t any. Just like the supposed Uyghur genocide. These stories will just fade out of the media cycle and we’ll get new fearmongering conspiracies, like “China is gonna use their new hypersonic nukes to obliterate Taiwan,” or maybe we’ll ramp up the rhetoric against South American socialists again by saying they support narco terrorism (that is: terrorism against our narcotics trafficking).


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27526272 - 11/01/21 11:21 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I have read a number of stories on the Chinese hypersonic missiles, mostly because I am interested in technology and engineering. The hilarious thing to me is that the accounts of the missiles are so incredibly varied. It's all straight speculation. No different than the Havana Syndrome BS, really.

I am sure the US military knows perfectly well what is happening. Our news media is just creating content to sell papers, and drum up support for the MIS.


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Edited by christopera (11/01/21 11:22 AM)

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: christopera]
    #27526784 - 11/01/21 07:10 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We've not seen the proof yet.



Proof of what exactly - microwave gun attacks, or of neurological injuries of uncertain cause? Because those are two different claims, and I've seen evidence to support the latter and provided it in my initial post here. Perhaps you can do a better job in explaining why you don't agree it qualifies as such (if you don't).


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27526818 - 11/01/21 07:31 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Proof of anything that was intentionally harming diplomats.

According to your article, the Canadians and the Americans seem to disagree on the effects. That, IMO, only makes the entire thing less credible.

I tried to quote, but of course Scribd is a piece of shit and won't let you do it. I'm sure I could fuck around and make it work, but I won't. Suffice it to say, many of the notable results of your own source could be self inflicted. There is no reason to believe that anxiety, depression, and ptsd are the results of some machine inflicting that on the people inside the embassy. If they are all worried and stressed, that's all it would take.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: christopera]
    #27526934 - 11/01/21 09:48 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: christopera] * 1
    #27527354 - 11/02/21 10:13 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

"Proof of anything that was intentionally harming diplomats."

Agreed. That's never been my point.

Although, the study I provided doesn't conclude "anxiety, depression, and ptsd" as the symptoms. Where did you read that? (You can copy-paste if you download the pdf, or just give me a page number reference) I read that "persistent symptoms included cognitive, balance, visual and auditory dysfunction; sleep impairment; and headaches. Test findings included cognitive, vestibular, and oculomotor abnormalities in the majority of individuals." These weren't solely the product of worry and stress - especially when we consider family members and pets were also affected.



@The Ecstatic,

Your article is debunking the notion that a single syndrome has affected hundreds of people around the world - and I agree with the sentiment - but it doesn’t say that the claims of injury are entirely false.

Quote:

"This does not undermine the fact that several people felt unwell," Della Sala explained. "However, before postulating questionable new syndromes, it may prove fruitful to analyze the data for what they tell us, exempt from political prejudices and pressure."






And that brings me to my point. Both of you are still looking at this through political prejudices when you say it's all bullshit - even if your prejudice is towards the US gov't rather than the Cuban gov't. You can see that prejudice in claims like this: "It was obviously a ploy to put Cuba back on the shit list." Canada and Cuba have always had good diplomatic relations, and a huge number of Canadians visit every year - there's no shit list for Cuba to return to. That 'obvious ploy' only makes sense when filtered through a very US-centric view.

Up here the story isn't big news like it seems to be down south - there's no media circus around the normalizing democratic relations with Cuba - there's no ballooning of more cases worldwide. It's highly-localized and looks more like a dispute between injured workers and their employer (the gov't of Canada) over neglectful conditions, rather than anything resembling the rumblings of a war machine. This is what the reporting looks like up here - the idea of a targeted attack or sonic weapon is relegated to a brief mention at the very end - it's not leading the story.

The idea that this is all a fabrication seems no less cloak-and-dagger to me, than the idea of a sonic weapon. It's much more likely that the root cause is fairly mundane, and the differences in attitudes toward Cuba - by both the general public and gov't - are why this story has since progressed so differently between our two countries.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27527498 - 11/02/21 01:13 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

The story only exists to advance political prejudice, that’s why the coverage is different here than in Canada. Arguing about whether the injuries are made up, valid, consistent, or whatever else is missing the point of the story’s existence: to make regular people believe that our Enemies have secret undetectable advanced weaponry that they’re currently employing against us.

Imagine an out of the blue media campaign with headlines like “Mysterious Weapon Is Harming US Troops Along Iranian Border.” It doesn’t matter whether injuries are actually happening, if they’re happening due to a single cause, or whether one of our allies did a medical study about one such injury. The average person will look at that headline and conclude that Iran is doing terrorism to us, which is the entire point of the media campaign.


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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27527578 - 11/02/21 02:23 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I agree, but that doesn't mean we should embrace falsehoods in our own rhetoric. You've yet to explain why focusing on the mysterious weapon claim would be any less effective than denying the entire thing.

The attack on September 11th was used to justify a war in Iraq. Calling out the lies, prejudices, and manipulation that were involved is absolutely appropriate - but some people go so far as to claim the entire thing was a US gov't plot. I haven't seen any benefit come out of that. If anything, the more fringe theories probably harmed the likelihood that the average person would take the more reasonable criticisms seriously.

Other than the scale of events involved, isn't your unwillingness to negotiate the lies from the facts in this case essentially the same?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Havana Syndrome [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27527593 - 11/02/21 02:32 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

No, because 9/11 actually happened. And neither the people who denied it happening altogether nor the people who claimed it did happen but that we shouldn’t go to war over it stopped said wars.

We don’t know whether these “attacks” are actually happening.
That’s step one. Step two would be proving they actually happened and are related. Step three would be proving them actually happening and being related and done with malicious intent. Step four is proving all that AND that the party/parties responsible are state actors. Step five would be all that happening under the authority of the heads of those states (China, Russia, Cuba, whomever).

They can’t even get to step one so, no, I’m not going to entertain the possibility of anything further, especially considering that’s the not so implicit goal of the story existing. Like I said, they used to at least give us a fake explanation of a real event to justify imperial aggression (9/11 happened because OBL and Saddam hate our freedoms so let’s kill them). Now not even the events are real. A better analogy would be if the government lied about a terrorist attack to get us into a war but also there was no evidence that a terrorist attack took place.


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Edited by The Ecstatic (11/02/21 02:38 PM)

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