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OfflineMetoo
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China * 1
    #27486767 - 09/29/21 07:08 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Greetings everyone. This post contains my thoughts on the direction China is taking, along with some chilling details about the level of control it exerts over its own citizens. Hopefully, this will lead to a reasoned discussion with other forum users sharing my interests. In particular I would like to invite @Falcon91Wolvrn03 whose views I do not always share but always respect. For clarity and structure, please post some developed ideas rather than one-liners. Two disclosures first. As some here know, I grew up in a Soviet bloc country at the tail end of the oppressive phase of communism, which admittedly shaped my views on life in general. Also, I do not want to turn this thread into a proxy discussion of current US politics but, for what it is worth, I am impressed with Biden's AUCUS brainchild. This is something Trump would never have been able to accomplish.

What started my recent round of research were the muffled noises from the human rights activists about the plight of Uyghurs. We have all heard that China handles the province of Xinjiang with an iron grip but I was not aware of what was actually happening on the ground. The sources I have relied on are generally on the human rights side which smacks of activism - it should soon become clear why so few first hand witness reports exist in the media.

Uyghurs are a Turkic ethnic group of 12-13 million recognised as native to Xinjiang. In late 1990s some started violent resistance against the Han Chinese which took the form of civil disobedience, riots and terror attacks. When I learnt that in 2017 China "clamped down" on Uyghurs I thought that meant more armed patrols, surveillance, detentions (aimed to identify and tame the radicals) but this is only a small part of what happened. First CCP sent Han Chinese intelligence officers to live with Uyghur families at their homes - masquerading as social workers. This is how China built a full database of the Uyghur population, including the blood and social ties between households. This has mapped all physical interactions, phone and email traffic, attendance at mosques, level of religious commitment at homes etc among the Uyghurs - both in Xinjiang and abroad. CCP then developed a big data algorithm to score the deduced level of disloyalty for every Uyghur alive. What followed was the construction of the massive network of internment camps which at present can (and apparently do) house up to one million people, sent there based on that rating.

Internment camp does not sound so bad, right? Well, at the lower end one can expect forced exposure to political propaganda, hours of mindless repetitions of the CCP slogans, praising Xi Jinping etc. A higher disloyalty score will mean a tougher regime - for example having to sit on the bed for 16 hours a day without any movement under constant CCTV surveillance. The preferred method of torture is tiger chair - a contraption which keeps one immobilised in contorted body position for any length of time deemed necessary. I will spare you the gore but there are reports of people who had to sit on their own beds staring at the wall in front while others screamed in agony for hours after being tiger-chaired in the same cell. The relatives of the Uyghurs living abroad are automatically sent to camps not for what they do but simply because having any friends or family abroad will bump one's score above the limit. It is an administrative process - no other proof of their personal disloyalty to CCP is needed. There is obviously no judicial oversight or right to appeal, people just disappear for months or years.

But what about those who manage to dodge the camps? Well, their daily life is not what you might be used to. The face recognition cameras cover all public areas of large cities, giving the CCP minders a real time view of the moves of every Uyghur. There are police checkpoints every few hundred meters where one has to surrender one's phone for a scan. Turning one's phone off may result in being called to the police station to explain (all interrogations are conducted in tiger chairs). Having an end-to-end encrypted app like WhatsApp or Telegraph on one's phone is an instant disloyalty score bump. If both parents are at camps the children are re-settled with Han families. If only the male is missing, a live-in Han surrogate husband is assigned to the woman - you get the picture.

So I thought that the Han Chinese population in general must be appalled at what is going on in Xinjiang but this is not the case because they have no idea. Did you pick up this piece of news the other day that CCP restricted the online gaming time for children? I could not work out how they would enforce it but it is actually quite simple. All internet access in China is controlled and censored in real time. All players have to register under their real names - no anonymous gaming. But what about getting a burner phone just for gaming you might ask? Well, there are no burner phones in China - all vendors are required to provide to CCP the face picture of the person buying a phone. One of the Black Mirror episodes showed this future society where all citizens are constantly rated by others on the quality of their social interactions. Except this is not a future - similar Social Credit system is live and operational in some parts of China. Your score may suffer if you for example jaywalk or appear in public inappropriately dressed. This particular system does not cover all of China and there are other versions which target potential dissidents. If you get on the radar of the secret police you will suffer a series of progressive restrictions on what you are allowed to do. You will lose your passport. You may not be able to travel by air or bullet trains. You may get de-prioritised in all dealings with the administration. You may have to report to the local police station with your phone every day. You may be ordered to live in a rural area.

For an avid reader of Orwell a society where the government surveillance and control are so comprehensive and relentlessly effective is a scary proposition. CCP can at any time change the algorithm and start offering rating bumps for reporting disloyalty to CCP in one's social circle or say picketing the US embassy. But I have to be fair - much of what Social Credit achieves has popular support in China (no-one wants to see people in pyjamas on the street). The opportunist crime in heavily monitored cities has dropped to zero - no one will touch a wallet left on a bus seat because of the surveillance cameras. Also, it should not be overlooked that CCP has delivered phenomenal growth in the living standards in China since Deng so they must be doing something right.

If this thread takes off I will offer my thoughts on Chinese expansionism - both the soft version known as Belt and Road Initiative and the full on military muscle display - but in the meantime please feel free to post your comments.

Edited by Metoo (09/30/21 02:50 AM)

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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27487006 - 09/29/21 11:35 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
Greetings everyone. This post contains my thoughts on the direction China is taking, along with some chilling details about the level of control it exerts over its own citizens. Hopefully, this will lead to a reasoned discussion with other forum users sharing my interests. In particular I would like to invite @Falcon91Wolvrn03 whose views I do not always share but always respect. For clarity and structure, please post some developed ideas rather than one-liners. Two disclosures first. As some here know, I grew up in a Soviet bloc country at the tail end of the oppressive phase of communism, which admittedly shaped my views on life in general. Also, I do not want to turn this thread into a proxy discussion of current US politics but, for what it is worth, I am impressed with Biden's AUCUS brainchild. This is something Trump would never have been able to accomplish.

What started my recent round of research were the muffled noises from the human rights activists about the plight of Uyghurs. We have all heard that China handles the province of Xinjiang with an iron grip but I was not aware of what was actually happening on the ground. The sources I have relied on are generally on the human rights side which smacks of activism - it should soon become clear why so few first hand witness reports exist in the media.

Uyghurs are a Turkic ethnic group of 12-13 million recognised as native to Xinjiang. In late 1990s some started violent resistance against the Han Chinese which took the form of civil disobedience, riots and terror attacks. When I learnt that in 2017 China "clamped down" on Uyghurs I thought that meant more armed patrols, surveillance, detentions (aimed to identify and tame the radicals) but this is only a small part of what happened. First CCP sent Han Chinese intelligence officers to live with Uyghur families at their homes - masquerading as social workers. This is how China built a full database of the Uyghur population, including the blood and social ties between households. This has mapped all physical interactions, phone and email traffic, attendance at mosques, level of religious commitment at homes etc among the Uyghurs - both in Xinyang and abroad. CCP then developed a big data algorithm to score the deduced level of disloyalty for every Uyghur alive. What followed was the construction of the massive network of internment camps which at present can (and apparently do) house up to one million people, sent there based on that rating.

Internment camp does not sound so bad, right? Well, at the lower end one can expect forced exposure to political propaganda, hours of mindless repetitions of the CCP slogans, praising Xi Jinping etc. A higher disloyalty score will mean a tougher regime - for example having to sit on the bed for 16 hours a day without any movement under constant CCTV surveillance. The preferred method of torture is tiger chair - a contraption which keeps one immobilised in contorted body position for any length of time deemed necessary. I will spare you the gore but there are reports of people who had to sit on their own beds staring at the wall in front while others screamed in agony for hours after being tiger-chaired in the same cell. The relatives of the Uyghurs living abroad are automatically sent to camps not for what they do but simply because having any friends or family abroad will bump one's score above the limit. It is an administrative process - no other proof of their personal disloyalty to CCP is needed. There is obviously no judicial oversight or right to appeal, people just disappear for months or years.

But what about those who manage to dodge the camps? Well, their daily life is not what you might be used to. The face recognition cameras cover all public areas of large cities, giving the CCP minders a real time view of the moves of every Uyghur. There are police checkpoints every few hundred meters where one has to surrender one's phone for a scan. Turning one's phone off may result in being called to the police station to explain (all interrogations are conducted in tiger chairs). Having an end-to-end encrypted app like WhatsApp or Telegraph on one's phone is an instant disloyalty score bump. If both parents are at camps the children are re-settled with Han families. If only the male is missing, a live-in Han surrogate husband is assigned to the woman - you get the picture.

So I thought that the Han Chinese population in general must be appalled at what is going on in Xinjiang but this is not the case because they have no idea. Did you pick up this piece of news the other day that CCP restricted the online gaming time for children? I could not work out how they would enforce it but it is actually quite simple. All internet access in China is controlled and censored in real time. All players have to register under their real names - no anonymous gaming. But what about getting a burner phone just for gaming you might ask? Well, there are no burner phones in China - all vendors are required to provide to CCP the face picture of the person buying a phone. One of the Black Mirror episodes showed this future society where all citizens are constantly rated by others on the quality of their social interactions. Except this is not a future - similar Social Credit system is live and operational in some parts of China. Your score may suffer if you for example jaywalk or appear in public inappropriately dressed. This particular system does not cover all of China and there are other versions which target potential dissidents. If you get on the radar of the secret police you will suffer a series of progressive restrictions on what you are allowed to do. You will lose your passport. You may not be able to travel by air or bullet trains. You may get de-prioritised in all dealings with the administration. You may have to report to the local police station with your phone every day. You may be ordered to live in a rural area.

For an avid reader of Orwell a society where the government surveillance and control is so comprehensive and relentlessly effective is a scary proposition. CCP can at any time change the algorithm and start offering rating bumps for reporting disloyalty to CCP in one's social circle or say picketing the US embassy. But I have to be fair - much of what Social Credit achieves has popular support in China (no-one wants to see people in pyjamas on the street). The opportunist crime in heavily monitored cities has dropped to zero - no one will touch a wallet left on a bus seat because of the surveillance cameras. Also, it should not be overlooked that CCP has delivered phenomenal growth in the living standards in China since Deng so they must be doing something right.

If this thread takes off I will offer my thoughts on Chinese expansionism - both the soft version known as Belt and Road Initiative and the full on military muscle display - but in the meantime please feel free to post your comments.




:rolleyes:




--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27487052 - 09/30/21 02:06 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Welcome back. I want to commend you on a couple points you made previously. You thought China would make a move on Taiwan. I replied that the U.S. would draw a line in the sand there. Given recent events I'm leaning toward your view.

On an unrelated note you cautioned us on the inherent drawbacks in political polling. I figured the pollsters wouldn't screw it up twice in a row. They were right about the Presidential election, but in the Dem primary they had me convinced Bernie was about to make his move and completely change the political landscape. While the Dem establishment did work against Bernie when he became a threat, the Bernie Bros just quit voting after California and the race wasn't close.


--------------------
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OfflineMetoo
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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27487063 - 09/30/21 02:38 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Good to be back :-)

Yes, it gets more scary the closer you look. Just waiting to see how this thread settles but was planning to write more about Taiwan, Paracels, Doklan, Tawang etc later.

Since you are the first to offer a meaningful comment let me ask - is there anything in the OP that you did not hear about before? I had had a vague understanding of the Uyghur drama but the details chilled me.

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InvisibleFridgedoor
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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27487081 - 09/30/21 03:32 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for starting this thread Metoo. I share a lot of your views/concerns.

Are you going to to also comment on the new silk road, China establishing huge farms in Kasachstan or their social credit system?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#:~:text=The%20social%20credit%20system%20is%20an%20extension%20of%20the%20risk,financial%20infidelity%2C%20and%20counterfeit%20goods.

I know I wouldn't want to live in a world governed by Chinese values.


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: China [Re: Fridgedoor]
    #27487085 - 09/30/21 03:43 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Welcome and thank you for the kind words. The new silk road runs through Xinjian but I have not done any reading on Kazakhstan. Please feel free to share what you know - it will be much appreciated.

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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: China [Re: Fridgedoor]
    #27487121 - 09/30/21 05:32 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Welcome back. I want to commend you on a couple points you made previously. You thought China would make a move on Taiwan. I replied that the U.S. would draw a line in the sand there. Given recent events I'm leaning toward your view.





You're commending him for predicting that China would move on Taiwan when they haven't moved on Taiwan because you are leaning towards thinking that they might possibly make a move on Taiwan sometime in the future?

I would also like to commend this most learned scholar and his undeniable knowledge of China and Chinese affairs. He may not provide any actual evidence to back up his declarative statements (but that tiger torture chair sounds simply beastly) and yes his post would undoubtedly be dismissed as conspiracy theory and moved to the CT forum for lack of evidence were he not peddling officially sanctioned MSM propaganda, but I for one heartily look forward to hearing the gentleman's views on Kazakhstan in future.

And here's a video about the good guys who control that very same propaganda from where the right honourable OP forms his opinions to make these highly commendable posts which are absolutely not aimed at increasing general animosity towards the very people he cares so very deeply about...



--------------------
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China [Re: wolf8312]
    #27487196 - 09/30/21 08:01 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

As Americans we love projecting our own foreign policy onto our ‘enemies.’ So of course we look at a Chinese invasion of Taiwan as a when and not an if. Same goes for Iran and nuclear weapons, or Cuba and ??? something, or NK nuking Seoul.

That said, in the incredibly unlikely event that China does make some military move in Taiwan, the US isn’t risking the already shaky global trade paradigm to save Taiwan. It ain’t happenin.


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27487217 - 09/30/21 08:35 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Taiwan will get taken if China wants to. They are already flooding Taiwan with Chinese nationals and it will only be a matter of time until Taiwan decided to be a part of China anyways.

If we were truly worried we’d be building out microchip production facilities domestically. That’s not happening. Otherwise Taiwan isn’t that valuable.


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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: China [Re: christopera]
    #27487237 - 09/30/21 09:03 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I support china an there socialism I think this something America should adopt especially since china is the world super power now an its working out very well for them. If America is smart they will stay out of chinas way unless they want there asses handed to them on a platter.

Idk why people are complaining about  china when American has done way more atrocity's than china could ever dream of doing an America is whipping immigrants an trapping them for slavery as we speak.

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Offlineqman
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Re: China [Re: Mach z 800] * 2
    #27487350 - 09/30/21 11:00 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
I support china an there socialism I think this something America should adopt especially since china is the world super power now an its working out very well for them. If America is smart they will stay out of chinas way unless they want there asses handed to them on a platter.

Idk why people are complaining about  china when American has done way more atrocity's than china could ever dream of doing an America is whipping immigrants an trapping them for slavery as we speak.




There's socialism for the rich in the US and don't forget that your 'capitalist' heroes are best friends and business partners with the big bad 'communist' Chinese. 

Get over the China vs US mentality that's spewed out by the MSM, the very rich in this nation won't tell you the truth about the relationship. Your enemy isn't China, it's your 'capitalistic' friends in the US.

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OfflineMetoo
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Re: China [Re: christopera]
    #27487477 - 09/30/21 12:55 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Taiwan will get taken if China wants to. They are already flooding Taiwan with Chinese nationals and it will only be a matter of time until Taiwan decided to be a part of China anyways.





Thanks for popping by.

Agreed, it is even possible that the Taiwanese are wanting to join PRC right now. But they may have to be assisted by PLA to overthrow their oppressive leaders. Like Tibetans in 1960s.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China [Re: christopera]
    #27489188 - 10/01/21 07:55 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
If we were truly worried we’d be building out microchip production facilities domestically. That’s not happening. Otherwise Taiwan isn’t that valuable.




TSMC, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation, is currently building a large microchip plant in Arizona. Should be coming online sometime in 2023-2024.

As for OP:

What do you propose?

Yes, China is doing extremely shitty things to minorities within their borders. So is basically every other country in the world. That's just something that humans do: shit on minorities. They're minorities, they make great targets for aimed poops. I would argue the US is even worse for this. China has internment camps, and so do we. Not only that, but we have more prisoners than China does. Not on a per capita basis, but in absolute numbers. Something like 0.7% of the US population is currently sitting in jail. And they disproportionately happen to be, minorities.

When you talk about the "Tiger Chair", that is a potentially racially motivated name what is known as a stress position. This is commonly used when you want to torture someone without actually pulling teeth or fingernails. A classic example of a stress position would be the wall sit exercise. Again, this is used pretty commonly around the world. I guess we would call it an "enhanced interrogation technique" here in the US.

Next, the Orwellian social credit system/camera combo that everyone likes to pick on. This is really a question of marketing. Everyone in the US accepts a credit score system which is controlled by three private corporations that use their own secret proprietary formulas to assign a score to every person in the US, which dictates your economic future. Your credit score determines where you can live, what you can buy, and how much you will pay for it. I will concede that we don't yet track "anti-social behavior", but that's not because of our freedom, that's just because of societal priorities and the overdeveloped prison system. If you're the kind of criminal that doesn't go to prison in the US, then your behavior doesn't matter, as long as your money is good. And you alluded to this same behavior among the Chinese: Most people are cool with it because minor nuisance crimes have dropped to nearly zero.

Finally, the extensive camera presence. I think this is actually quite misleading. China may have a bunch of government cameras, sure, but to me this is simply because they cut out the middleman. Cameras are routinely marketed as a safety precaution in the US. I actually once had a landlord that provided me with a free security system that included a camera in my living room, because it was a "bad neighborhood". I taped over the camera, obviously, but still had to deal with the bullshit security system. Here, we pay for the privilege of putting cameras everywhere. Or other surveillance devices. Most of my neighbors have those ring doorbell cameras now. I'm willing to bet that the majority of them also have an Alexa or three in their houses. And Amazon is more than happy to sell those videos or transcripts of whatever that Alexa overhears to the US government. Heck, there's a company called Clearview AI, run by an openly pro-police state right wing nutjob who is notoriously camera shy, because the entire point of his company is to scrape facial data from cameras to track people, and his biggest customer in the US police force.

I don't see much of a difference between the actions taken by China and the actions taken by other governments across the world, notably the US. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fucked up regardless of the country, but there is a certain...glass houses type aspect to focusing on one over the other.

And yes, China is growing rapidly and improving the standards of living for its citizens, while the US is stagnating and in need of a scapegoat.

EDIT: I will also add, something I didn't address: the gaming ban. Again, the major difference is how you are tracked. In China, maybe you need to submit your real name and photo to get a account, but in the rest of the world, every service tracks you anyway. Your phone has a unique device ID, which is harvested by literally every corporation when you use their services. Your computer's hardware also has unique device IDs, the combination of which is harvested by basically every website you visit. Your browser settings, same thing. Websites you visit, the time you spend on each website, even individual idiosyncrasies, like your typing cadence, your habitual mouse movements, all of that is tracked and matched to a profile of you. Primarily, it is done for advertising purposes. There is great value in customized ads. It can also be used to track you. Chances are, google, facebook, amazon, etc. all have profiles on you, even if you don't use them. Facebook knows you exist because even if you've never gone on facebook, your friends have. Google knows you exist because of google.com. Amazon knows you exist because the most profitable part of amazon is their server farms, which they rent out to everyone. Amazon actually makes very little money by selling you cheap Chinese crap. The moneymaker is AWS.

It is literally impossible to exist in the modern world without someone having a detailed profile of you. Chances are, most major corporations literally know you better than you know yourself. And that information is freely sold to any government or person that offers the right price. It's just that in China, all of this is (a) more blatant and (b) directly done by the government.

Edited by Kryptos (10/01/21 09:33 PM)

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27489268 - 10/01/21 09:28 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I don't see much of a difference between the actions taken by China and the actions taken by other governments across the world, notably the US. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fucked up regardless of the country, but there is a certain...glass houses type aspect to focusing on one over the other.




The most obvious difference, imo, is that the Chinese state's brand of authoritarian rule is much more 'in your face' than what we are used to from liberal democracies. In the USA, authoritarian rule is still hidden behind a thin veneer of freedom and democracy - whereas in China, authoritarian rule is openly dressed up in a paternalistic attitude.

-In China, the CCP responsibly censors disruptive information.
-In the USA, you have the freedom to choose any media you wish. *All available media is owned by the billionaire class, and solely represents their interests.


Still, I'm not really concerned about the Chinese state posing any direct military threat to my life in Canada. A far bigger risk is that governments around the world will adopt the Chinese brand of authoritarianism if it proves more successful in repressing social dissent - especially as we arrive in a era of increasing instability caused by climate change. Gord Hill of the Kwakwaka’wakw nation may have it about right:
 
The convergence of war, economic decline and ecological crisis will lead to greater overall social conflict within the imperialist nations in the years to come. It is this growing conflict that will create changes in the present social conditions [with] greater opportunities for organised resistance. The rulers are well aware of this, and it is for this reason that state repression is now being established as a primary means of social control (i.e greatly expanded police-military forces, new terror laws etc)... We are now in a period that can be described as the ‘calm before the storm’

- Colonization and Decolonization: A manual for Indigenous liberation in the 21st century


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #27489287 - 10/01/21 09:48 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Dang, you beat my edit. Or maybe my edit slightly beat your post. Either way, yes.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Still, I'm not really concerned about the Chinese state posing any direct military threat to my life in Canada. A far bigger risk is that governments around the world will adopt the Chinese brand of authoritarianism if it proves more successful in repressing social dissent - especially as we arrive in a era of increasing instability caused by climate change. Gord Hill of the Kwakwaka’wakw nation may have it about right:
 
The convergence of war, economic decline and ecological crisis will lead to greater overall social conflict within the imperialist nations in the years to come. It is this growing conflict that will create changes in the present social conditions [with] greater opportunities for organised resistance. The rulers are well aware of this, and it is for this reason that state repression is now being established as a primary means of social control (i.e greatly expanded police-military forces, new terror laws etc)... We are now in a period that can be described as the ‘calm before the storm’

- Colonization and Decolonization: A manual for Indigenous liberation in the 21st century




I don't see this in a future tense, I see this in a present tense. I already see Chinese brand authoritarianism in the world around me, except it is exerted with a that thin veneer. You may argue that this is the distinction, but I don't see it as such. If there is a distinction to be made, then the distinction is so minuscule that it is irrelevant, in my mind. The authoritarianism is the same, but it is culturally tailored. Chinese culture does, and has historically, valued the group over the individual. The family unit, the state, etc. And so authoritarianism in China is cloaked in that same language of duty to the state. US culture is and always has been very focused on individual choice and freedom, and so US authoritarianism is presented as a meaningless choice between two identical options.

Simply put: it is culturally appropriate for the Chinese to say "bend over and accept your dildo for the glory of the state!", and for the US to say "would monsieur prefer the blue dildo or the red dildo, or shall I decide on monsieur's behalf?"

Either way, you're taking a dildo up the ass whether you like it or not. That part is not up for debate.

EDIT: This mismatch in culture actually furthers the depth of the dildo, because it allows the Chinese to take umbrage at the US and vice versa. The end result, of course, is that each begins to prefer their own style of dildo, and helps it further in as a method of distinguishing themselves from the other's style of dildo (which they vehemently oppose). Therefore, I don't think there is any need to worry about "Chinese brand" authoritarianism outside of China. Authoritarianism is authoritarianism, and like all authoritarianism, having an "other" to demonize only makes it stronger.

Edited by Kryptos (10/01/21 10:10 PM)

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27489539 - 10/02/21 05:41 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

It's funny you should mention that. Last week at Amazon I sorted a big box of dildos from China. We have this incredibly crude statistical performance rating system, and in general I will grab a box off the conveyor it I see Chinese letters.

If Lenin or Marx were alive today they might say the communists will sell you the dildo to screw yourself with.

I had written a long post about China but given current intoxication level thought it best to delete. But I will say it's very hard to interpret the news we get about China.


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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27490209 - 10/02/21 05:44 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I don't see this in a future tense, I see this in a present tense. I already see Chinese brand authoritarianism in the world around me, except it is exerted with a that thin veneer. You may argue that this is the distinction, but I don't see it as such. If there is a distinction to be made, then the distinction is so minuscule that it is irrelevant, in my mind.




I think, from the perspective of the average citizen of a nation-state, you are absolutely correct. Most people will go through their lives without coming into direct conflict with their government, regardless of whether they live in China, the USA, or elsewhere. My perspective is a little bit skewed because of my personal politics.

Anarchism is a political minority that, historically and currently, experiences significant repression under both capitalist and communist states - for what should be obvious reasons. I actively and openly organize against the state where I live - and in this position, even a thin veneer of civil rights is better than nothing. It might be mostly performative - and it might not completely prevent state repression - but it certainly constrains the state to acting within certain limits in order to uphold that performance.

That doesn't mean new forms of state repression, intended to circumvent the problem of civil rights, haven't been introduced. Around the turn of the 21st century, liberal democracies began to adopt anti-terrorism legislation -  concurrently, a pattern of using these new laws to cast wide-nets of criminal conspiracies against political activists began to emerge. I won't got into all the details, but suffice to say that charges of terrorist conspiracies haven't been very effective at suppressing anarchist activities. If you're interested in a more in-depth look at the last couple decades, I would recommend the following:
- The Age of Conspiracy Charges
- On Repression Patterns in Europe

None of this is likely to worry the average person, but the threat of state repression is an ever present reality if you are actively organizing against the state. Similarly, looking to the forms that state repression takes in different countries, and particularly looking to see which models are most effective, can give us a heads up before they are imported and used against us.

With that in mind, I can say that in my experience anarchist organizing from within China is incredibly scarce, and I don't think this can be chalked down to a difference in language or culture. Internationalism is an inseparable aspect of anarchism - there is a very cohesive international network of anarchist media, and there is an ever-present effort to translate anarchist writing into multiple languages. Because of this, anarchist writings from Taiwan and Hong Kong are common, but writings from the Chinese mainland are still uncommon and usually written through a lens of Mao-Lenin-Marxism. The following give a brief view of the type of activist writing that comes out of mainland China:
- From analysis to action: Voices from left media in mainland China
- Worker organising under the pandemic: reflections from China

So we have to ask ourselves, 'what makes state repression in China more effective?' because, undoubtedly, our own governments are asking that same question internally. The difference, imo, is found in the more blatant authoritarianism of the CCP.  For example, the Chinese state technically has civil liberties, but it also has the four cardinal principles: upholding the socialist path, the people's democratic dictatorship, the leadership of the CCP, and Maoism-Leninism-Marxism. Similar to our own anti-terrorism laws, the four cardinal principles are considered to supersede civil rights - only in a much more blatant and less convoluted manner.

This 'in-your-face' approach has been very effective at repressing anti-state political activity in China, from my perspective. I know that I would have to change my personal activities significantly in such an environment - whereas anti-terrorism laws haven't really had the same effect.

Still, I don't think liberal democracies would have a very easy time importing this model right now - but I do believe climate change is going to make the future increasingly unstable - I also believe that, if faced with an existential crisis, even the most liberal democracy would adopt severe authoritarian tendencies as an act of self-preservation - and this is why I pay attention to the authoritarianism of the Chinese state.


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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27491218 - 10/03/21 03:52 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I think you're a little too optimistic about the lack of effect of state level repression in western societies.

China may be cracking down explicitly on anarchist organizing, making publication much more difficult. The US, on the other hand, simply ridicules the entire concept of anarchy to an extreme degree. Sure, you can organize and publish anarchist literature, but the common citizen has a knee-jerk reaction of "this is published by a criminal who is almost certainly violent".

I think the US method of repression through ridicule might actually be more effective than the Chinese method of simple banning. The Chinese method is weak to natural human curiosity towards "forbidden knowledge". If one is able to take the first step and get some anarchist literature published, they will immediately be taken seriously by whoever gets their hands on it because of the "THEY don't want you to know"-type conspiracy effect.

In the US, you can publish all you want, but if you want someone to take you seriously, you're going to have to build some sort of relationship with them for them to trust your opinions. Or I guess find someone that's disillusioned enough to just latch onto the first thing that comes along, but that's been pretty well monopolized by pro-authoritarian movements like MAGA/Qanon.

Ultimately, the second method of conversion to your cause is much more effective on a long term timescale. It's how Christianity became a thing: consistent 3% annual growth rate starting from 20 or so dudes when Jesus died to millions of people at the highest reaches of Rome by the Council of Nicea.

But, this assumes that you have a long term timescale. Which, as you point out, we do not. Due to Climate Change. 300 years from now, the majority of human population will almost certainly be dead. Humanity won't be extinct, but neither will we count world population by the billions.

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27491270 - 10/03/21 04:51 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not being optimistic at all, I'm being an absolute realist - I'm speaking based on my personal and direct experience as an openly organizing anarchist in North America. Why would I benefit from downplaying the state repression I experience?

Is this just a hypothetical to you? Because I absolutely prefer being ridiculed to being outlawed. Do you honestly believe this "distinction is so minuscule that it is irrelevant"?


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/03/21 05:46 PM)

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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27491446 - 10/03/21 07:44 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Unless you have experienced both being ridiculed and being outlawed, I believe it is fair to characterize this as a hypothetical for both of us. Now I will admit I don't know your entire life, and you may have spent some time as an openly organizing anarchist in China, but I suspect that is not the case.

I will absolutely concede that it is much more personally preferable to be ridiculed than to be outlawed, because jail fucking sucks.

However, if we are to judge the two in terms of organizing effectiveness, i.e. in actual outcomes, not personal comfort, I don't think that the difference is quite as clear. As a reference, I am using the burgeoning feminist movement in China, which started around the time of MeToo here in the states, and is currently going strong even though the Chinese government is doing their absolute best to arrest/censor their way out of the problem.

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27491536 - 10/03/21 09:52 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

There's a reason unions everywhere fight for the right to organize: being forced underground makes it harder to organize effectively.

Do you honestly believe ridicule might be worse than criminalization, or are you just being needlessly contrarian?

Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/03/21 10:13 PM)

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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27491628 - 10/04/21 12:23 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

China exists as a standard for oppression, so as long as it's not as bad as what they're doing, it'll pass as acceptable anywhere else in the world, lol.

China being a 10/10, for example, makes 6.5-7.5/10 everywhere else seem acceptable by comparison.


--------------------



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Re: China [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27491688 - 10/04/21 02:20 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Following, will return later.


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Re: China [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #27491935 - 10/04/21 08:57 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
China exists as a standard for oppression, so as long as it's not as bad as what they're doing, it'll pass as acceptable anywhere else in the world, lol.

China being a 10/10, for example, makes 6.5-7.5/10 everywhere else seem acceptable by comparison.




The Gulf monarchies are more oppressive. But we don’t hear about their oppression every single day, so in a roundabout way, yes, China has been made the standard for oppression.


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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27491969 - 10/04/21 09:23 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
There's a reason unions everywhere fight for the right to organize: being forced underground makes it harder to organize effectively.

Do you honestly believe ridicule might be worse than criminalization, or are you just being needlessly contrarian?




Unions are not explicitly anti-state.

I think I have been pretty clear in what I mean. If your point is to organize and complain, then ridicule is obviously much better than criminalization. Because complaining accomplishes nothing. If your goals are to organize and then actually try to accomplish an anarchist society, then I do not believe that ridicule is automatically preferable to criminalization. Mostly because being ridiculed means that nobody takes you seriously enough to consider you a legitimate threat.

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27492116 - 10/04/21 11:00 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

"Mostly because being ridiculed means that nobody takes you seriously enough to consider you a legitimate threat."

Is it 'ridiculed because you're not a legitimate threat' or 'not a legitimate threat because you're ridiculed'. If it's the former, then ridicule isn't the cause - it's an effect of not being considered a threat, and I can change that. If it's the latter, I don't see why ridicule would necessarily cause something to not be a threat - and it's entirely conceivable that ridicule could instead cause a legitimate threat to be underestimated.

Ridicule doesn't prevent me from openly organizing with like-minded individuals. Criminalization does.

Ridicule doesn't prevent me from educating the misinformed about anarchism. Criminalization does.

Ridicule doesn't require me to hide being an anarchist. Criminalization does.

It's not like we don't have real examples of this type of political criminalization in North America and Europe - less than a century ago, political activists still faced outright criminalization. For example, Gitlow v. New York effectively criminalized all anarchist speech, and it wasn't until nearly half a century later that the Brandenburg v. Ohio decision cast-doubt on the previous one. The US immigration acts of the first half of the 20th century specifically targeted (a very loose definition of) anarchists. People fought against these repressive policies for a reason - being forced underground makes effective organizing more difficult.

To relate things back to the four cardinal principles of the Chinese state (a specific example where I consider the implementation of authoritarian policy to significantly deviate from what we experience living under liberal democracies), imagine a United States that has written 'uphold the constitution, the people's democratic union, the leadership of the POTUS, and Capitalism' into a law that supersedes civil rights. It might become more difficult to protest in general, but the effect on anarchism, and other anti-state / anti-capitalist political movements, would be much more severe.

Can you provide any examples where ridicule has effectively repressed a political ideology?

Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/04/21 12:44 PM)

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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #27492794 - 10/04/21 08:13 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Can you provide any examples where ridicule has effectively repressed a political ideology?




Anarchism.

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27492825 - 10/04/21 08:28 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27492833 - 10/04/21 08:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

How?

Sure, there's a lot of jokes about living in your moms basement or whatever - but that hasn't actually repressed the ideology.

Ignore the internet memes and check out what the folks in Washington DC think:

Quote:

Examining Extremism: U.S. Militant Anarchists

August 5, 2021

While there is a long and violent history of anarchism in the United States, the threat that anarchists pose has evolved. Though anarchists remain a persistent problem in the United States, they pose a low-level threat—both in terms of lethality and rate of attacks—in comparison to other extremist movements.

Anarchism is a persistent threat that will challenge domestic security in the United States. The end goal of anarchists—the eventual downfall of the U.S. government—is inherently at odds with the United States. Furthermore, the use of social media allows anarchists to remain anonymous yet connected, thwarting law enforcement efforts to prevent militant anarchists from organizing. For example, on July 25, 2021, anarchists organized rallies in more than 20 cities with the use of the hashtag #J25 on Twitter.

Anarchists, however, present a low threat to the United States in comparison to other extremist movements, such as white supremacists. Anarchist attacks have a very low rate of lethality, and only two fatalities resulted from the 30 attacks conducted since 1994. This is likely because militant anarchists in the United States attack property and infrastructure (92 percent of attacks and plots since 1994) more often than private individuals (6 percent).



https://www.csis.org/blogs/examining-extremism/examining-extremism-us-militant-anarchists


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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27492867 - 10/04/21 08:42 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

If I'm being completely honest, it looks like the folks in DC don't take you very seriously either.

The Chinese, on the other hand, seem to.

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27492877 - 10/04/21 08:51 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Which brings us back to my initial point:

"Imo a far bigger risk is that governments around the world will adopt the Chinese brand of authoritarianism if it proves more successful in repressing social dissent."


Initially you stated, "if there is a distinction to be made [between US and Chinese authoritarianism], then the distinction is so minuscule that it is irrelevant, in my mind." so I'm glad to see you've finally come to agree that there is a noticeable difference.


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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #27492928 - 10/04/21 09:27 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Again. If you're talking about personal risk, then I completely agree.

If you're talking about risk to the anarchist movement? Then the distinction is so minuscule that it is irrelevant, in my mind.

Yes, it would suck to be in a Chinese jail. But it's not like you're accomplishing much in the West outside of jail, is it?

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27493473 - 10/05/21 11:26 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

That depends on if you define "accomplishment" as global mass revolution or living on your own terms as an individual/community. I'm not trying to force everyone to become an anarchist - I'm satisfied with the state not forcing me to stop being an anarchist.

Besides, you don't think that the micro of 'personal risk' ties into the macro of 'risk to a movement'?

As I've already stated, anarchist writing and organizing from within mainland China is incredibly scarce. Both Taiwan and Hong Kong, with a fraction of the population of mainland China, produce much much more. If not a difference in the authoritarian approach of the Chinese state, what do you think could be causing this difference?


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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27493493 - 10/05/21 11:45 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

The CIA.


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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27493521 - 10/05/21 12:09 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

The CIA is responsible for the dearth of anarchists in mainland China? I don't see why.

Of course, you're probably suggesting that the CIA is the source of anarchists in Taiwan and Hong Kong - but this population of anarchists is proportional to anarchist populations around the globe. The population in mainland China is the aberration here.

I reject the patronizing (and all to common) suggestion that people existing outside of US hegemony don't have personal agency - that they are just tools of US imperialism. Anarchism in north-east Asia has roots that extends deeper than the advent of cold war politics. It wasn't created in response to the US state - it disappeared in response to the Chinese state.

Do you have any hard evidence connecting anarchists in north-east Asia to the CIA, or just repeating your own flavour of propaganda here?

No Badjacketing: The State Wants to Kill Us; Let’s Not Cooperate


--------------------

Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/06/21 02:10 PM)

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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27493736 - 10/05/21 03:51 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
That depends on if you define "accomplishment" as global mass revolution or living on your own terms as an individual/community. I'm not trying to force everyone to become an anarchist - I'm satisfied with the state not forcing me to stop being an anarchist.




This is a bit like saying that me and my cat live by communist principles. Strictly speaking, we do. From me according to my ability (to pay rent) and to me according to my needs (for a fuzzy alarm clock). You could even argue that every (healthy) family in the world lives by communist principles, in the strictest definition.

Unfortunately, this is one of those moments where you're so technically correct that your statement is meaningless. I don't think there is a single government in the world that is enforcing familial capitalism, for example. The cops aren't going to bust down my door because I fail to charge my cat rent.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Besides, you don't think that the micro of 'personal risk' ties into the macro of 'risk to a movement'?




No, unless your "movement" consists of exactly one person. In which case, I wouldn't call it a "movement".


Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
As I've already stated, anarchist writing and organizing from within mainland China is incredibly scarce. Both Taiwan and Hong Kong, with a fraction of the population of mainland China, produce much much more. If not a difference in the authoritarian approach of the Chinese state, what do you think could be causing this difference?




It is absolutely Chinese censorship that is causing this difference. That part is not being disputed. The question is, which method of repression is more effective at repressing an anarchist movement?

I mean, if your movement consists of you, singular, then...yeah, that really does kind of simplify things, doesn't it? Of course you'd be more worried about an authoritarian system. Of course nobody in the west would be taking you seriously. There would be no movement!

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27497839 - 10/08/21 07:57 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I've followed China for the past decade or so. I even took Mandarin in college (though my motivation was to help North Korean defectors in China). One of the most heartbreaking videos I've seen detailing this was from Laowhy86 (1). They've been posting family photos and trying to explain what's happening through emojis. It's fucked. At the same time, it's not really new either. I mean, the surveillance is new but China was committing genocide long before Xinjiang. The genocide of Falun Gong has been fairly well-documented. Tursunay Ziyawudun describes having electric batons forced inside of her in the Xinjiang concentration camps (2). This is exactly what has been documented with Falun Gong as well (3). That's not to take away from what's happening in Xinjiang, only to highlight the disheartening reality that the rest of the world didn't act then and likely won't now.

If you want to see how deep and dystopian the CCP has become, look no further than the thousands of videos from Xinjiang locals denying the West's allegations. Weirdly, they all seem fixated on Mike Pompeo, almost as if someone told all of them to mention Mike Pompeo (4),(5),(6),(7). I definitely suggest checking out the ADV Podcasts (and their personal channels.) They're super informative.



(1) The Coded Messages Coming Out of Xinjiang


(2) Tursunay Ziyawudun explaining things that happened to her in Xinjiang


(3) Graphic images showing the abuse of Falun Gong practitioners from electric batons. The methods have not much changed over the decades.

(4) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(5) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(6) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(7) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


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Re: China [Re: Darwin23]
    #27498247 - 10/09/21 06:59 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Darwin23 said:
I've followed China for the past decade or so. I even took Mandarin in college (though my motivation was to help North Korean defectors in China). One of the most heartbreaking videos I've seen detailing this was from Laowhy86 (1). They've been posting family photos and trying to explain what's happening through emojis. It's fucked. At the same time, it's not really new either. I mean, the surveillance is new but China was committing genocide long before Xinjiang. The genocide of Falun Gong has been fairly well-documented. Tursunay Ziyawudun describes having electric batons forced inside of her in the Xinjiang concentration camps (2). This is exactly what has been documented with Falun Gong as well (3). That's not to take away from what's happening in Xinjiang, only to highlight the disheartening reality that the rest of the world didn't act then and likely won't now.

If you want to see how deep and dystopian the CCP has become, look no further than the thousands of videos from Xinjiang locals denying the West's allegations. Weirdly, they all seem fixated on Mike Pompeo, almost as if someone told all of them to mention Mike Pompeo (4),(5),(6),(7). I definitely suggest checking out the ADV Podcasts (and their personal channels.) They're super informative.



(1) The Coded Messages Coming Out of Xinjiang


(2) Tursunay Ziyawudun explaining things that happened to her in Xinjiang


(3) Graphic images showing the abuse of Falun Gong practitioners from electric batons. The methods have not much changed over the decades.

(4) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(5) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(6) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(7) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP





The problem is posts like yours purport to be hard evidence when really all you have is a narrative.

With a couple of photos and a few captions, and a bunch of 'eyewitnessess' one can concoct pretty much any story one likes, hell you are even using the testimony of people saying they are not being persecuted as sinister evidence that in fact, they are! Guilty either way...

Do we not have to ask ourselves therefore before rushing to judgement, if the other side controlling the media disseminating these narratives has any motivation for doing so, and as importantly, are there any historical precedents of them having concocted false testimony/evidence (Hint: most definitely!) in the past or else fermenting instability by covertly supporting/funding opposition groups within a target country?

Torture is being committed all over the world many of the offenders being US allies (and the US itself assuming they are still using enhanced interrogation/torture techniques) and we never hear or care about this, do we?

So is it not telling we are hearing (actually being bombarded with) about these atrocities in this specific case of China (enemy/rival no 1 of the US) and does it not prove there is a reason for this that has nothing to do with ethics?

It is after all rich giving what our western nations have done in the Muslim world during the last twenty years that westerners should be getting up on their soapboxes now and protesting about Muslim rights with seemingly no sense of self-awareness or shame whatsoever! Oh, that was just George Bush, he's gone now...

Do you honestly think the US government is bombarding its public with these horror stories because it actually cares about these people, that they honestly give two shits about the people of Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Xin Jiang (or Muslims?) or is this play not more likely to be about harming Chinas reputation and economy and attempting to make it into a global pariah? Is that not the more rational explanation?

It's sad that we live in a world with a government and media that is so utterly discredited that we can no longer believe anything they tell us, or even if we do, think of them as contemptible hypocrites, but with every fibre of my being, I believe one would be brainwashed to trust them on anything much less concerning any foreign nation that the US has designated the bad guy.

I mean talk about doomed to repeat it!

Highly recommend this guys content:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwGpHa6rMLjSSCBlckm5khw


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Edited by wolf8312 (10/09/21 07:07 AM)

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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: China [Re: wolf8312]
    #27499268 - 10/10/21 07:55 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

China is about to run shit around the world an America dosent have what it takes to stop them.

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Re: China [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27499802 - 10/10/21 04:13 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Last time someone threatened US hegemony we threatened the world with nuclear holocaust. I don’t see why this time will be any different.


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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27500192 - 10/10/21 10:23 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

That's why China will just gradually buy us, with our economic elites in on the deal. That way we wont have an excuse to nuke them.


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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27501407 - 10/11/21 10:38 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I think perhaps the biggest mistake where America foreign policy is concerned is in assuming that the US welcomes/demands democracy in other nations because it cares so very deeply about the wellbeing and freedoms of other peoples!

I would argue the real reason it wants democracy and freedoms in other countries is that it wants more freedom for itself and its operatives within these other countries.

Once a country (especially a country the US considers hostile) opens up and allows democratic freedoms to flourish what you are then going to see is opposition groups popping up that are ostensibly patriotic but are actually just the American government subverting another country's political system/process.

This not only happens in far off lands after all, but is happening inside Britain (and Australia) where these days our foreign policy is almost entirely dictated by the US (not that Boris isn't happy going along with it) and is not only damaging to British national interests but is also putting Britain in danger for no logical reason.

Christ, if you look at the Biden presidency it seems as if it is even happening within the US as that is a man who does not strike me as being in control of anything!

It's almost creepy...   

It makes more sense IMO that the US has been focusing on the Xin Jiang issue not because it cares about human rights (I mean come on) but because the heightened security in the region (no terrorist attacks in the area for a number of years now) has made it much more difficult for its minions to operate in and ultimately destabilize or influence.

The same goes for Taiwan and Hongkong. Democracy is now little more than a tacky American franchise that the US can happily infiltrate and then influence/control, of course, they want everyone to be free and democratic! 

The irony of all this is the more the US has pushed for democratic freedoms inside of China the more authoritarian China has become and to be honest, has been required to become in order to keep the US and its operatives out!


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Edited by wolf8312 (10/11/21 11:38 PM)

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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27502712 - 10/13/21 04:44 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Last time someone threatened US hegemony we threatened the world with nuclear holocaust. I don’t see why this time will be any different.


things are different china is fighting a economic war with us. An they know the current administration dosent have what it takes to act fast an take action if there was war to break out. China knows it has a nice window of opportunity because they know biden will not challenge them or call them out.

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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27502713 - 10/13/21 04:45 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
That's why China will just gradually buy us, with our economic elites in on the deal. That way we wont have an excuse to nuke them.


its allreaddy happening.

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Re: China [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27502767 - 10/13/21 06:58 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

After begrudgingly admitting that there isn’t really a Muslim genocide happening in Xinjiang, the AP is now reporting that China is rolling back their genocide, as if political pressure from the noble West is what stopped something that never really happened in the first place.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9


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Re: China [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27502993 - 10/13/21 10:36 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Last time someone threatened US hegemony we threatened the world with nuclear holocaust. I don’t see why this time will be any different.


things are different china is fighting a economic war with us. An they know the current administration dosent have what it takes to act fast an take action if there was war to break out. China knows it has a nice window of opportunity because they know biden will not challenge them or call them out.




Please explain how there's an economic war with China when there's trade with the two nations that was $635 billion in 2019?  An economic war with other nations doesn't involve agreeable trade. There's no economic war taking place between the US and China, that's pure propaganda.

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Re: China [Re: qman]
    #27503040 - 10/13/21 11:28 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

We buy more from China than anyone else. We sell more to Canada. We are doing a hell of a job of supporting China's economy.


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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27503088 - 10/13/21 12:09 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Not to mention exports to the EU are double in China compared to what they are here. Maybe that’s why we’re trying so hard to bring India into the fold. We attack China we’re gonna need another gigantic population of poor people to make all our cheap crap.

Half of the general public’s animosity towards China is the understanding that our standard of living will continue to decline as they rise. And if we want to return to the glory days of the 1950’s we’ll need to repeat the circumstances of those days; us being the only stable industrial superpower. But the hawks in DC aren’t antagonizing China so we can bring back manufacturing jobs, they just see China as an emerging threat to US hegemony.


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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27504045 - 10/14/21 10:13 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I think they're flogging a dead horse with U.S. hegemony. We can talk the talk, but we can't etc. etc. It shouldn't take too long for the whole world to figure it out. What we have is a bunch of nuclear missiles, and now we're saying the hypersonic ones are just way too expensive so a couple days ago we told the defense contrators they have design cheaper ones. If Putin is to be believed they are way ahead on hypersonic, so I guess our arsenal is obsolete. It's probably good in a way. The hypersonic are far superior for first strike, but we still have so many OG ICBMs we still have a deterrent.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27504054 - 10/14/21 10:23 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Hypersonic/regular doesn't really matter. Until we have missiles traveling at the speed of light, there will be a few minute window in which we can counter-launch and end humanity.

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27504360 - 10/14/21 03:44 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I think I said that. If we don't have superiority or even parity at hypersonic technology, that removes first strike as on option. I'm going on the assumption that the U.S. has always been the biggest threat to world annihilation.


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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27504387 - 10/14/21 04:17 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I guess I never considered "first strike" as a viable option past like, 1949. We had a five year window during which first strike was possible because the US was the only nuclear power, but back then we didn't have enough nukes to actually do an effective first strike. Operation Unthinkable was quite aptly named.

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27504699 - 10/14/21 08:11 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

If you're going to have them, you have to assume somebody would strike first. I go under the assumption it would be us.
I have no idea how close we've come, but the scenarios were discussed by us continuously. A big scenario was the Soviet tank advantage in the 1980's. It ran like this. We couldn't possibly stop them if they conventionally tried to take Western Europe, so we would be forced to use tactical nukes on the battle field. No one on either side thought it could deescalate after that point, so do you wait to see who goes goes strategic first, or do you hit them with a massive first strike.

Everyone on the left believed the Reagan military buildup was all about first strike. The MX missile he named the Peacekeeper was designed to take out their silos buried under tons of concrete. So why destroy their missiles that haven't been deployed to the surface if we hadn't already attacked? If they struck first these missiles in reserve would have already been deployed to the surface because that takes precious time. The other Reagan initiative was the Star Wars missile defense stem. The week he first announced it's development, the entire Physics Department at the University of Illinois signed a letter saying none of them would work on it, because it's true purpose was stopping a counterattack. IDK, but that is how the left viewed the last great stage of the cold war.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

Edited by Brian Jones (10/14/21 08:16 PM)

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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27506202 - 10/16/21 02:51 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

This is second part of the OP.

With my background one always scans for signs of a semi-autocratic socialist/communist system going full 1984. One of these litmus tests is the way private business in general is treated.

National Socialists settled for the complete political control over business which, nominally, remained in private ownerships. Krupp was run by Krupp but NSDAP told Krupp what to make. The level of control included - please plant a mental marker here - being able to line up and imprison any business owner seen as uncooperative. This is the national brand of socialism in its full destructive rage - party officials deciding what a nominally capitalist economy does through extra judicial blackmail. Second marker - there was no effective judicial recourse against any of this in 1930s Germany.

Inter-national Socialists led by Lenin went the other way by rounding up and shooting the business owners - both figuratively and literary. But even they allowed the period of NEP in early 1920s when privately owned business was tolerated. This was followed by a considerable tightening of the screws under Stalin - the budding social class of entrepreneurs was wiped out.

On a personal note, my granddad started taxi companies three times and was three times destroyed. Twice by wars and once by a political clamp-down following a brief period of a market economy experiment. No legal recourse to political decisions for him.

Now, many people - writer included - thought that the free market reforms under Deng would lead to a sustained political softening, right? The economic freedom leads to political freedom model? Well, going by my two markers this is not what is happening.

Following a period of escalating rhetoric  CCP announced a while ago that all businesses are expected to tow the official political line. Some Chinese businesses seen as overinvested oversees were punished by administrative decision leading directly to market losses.  A number of business owners either disappeared or were sentenced on charges like "obstructing public affairs and provoking quarrels" (Sun Dawu - sentenced to 18 years). The well known actress, Zhao Wei, disappeared physically and in a truelly Orwellian style was wiped out from the social media.

But, hang on, these people were rich enough to hire a lawyer? No, because all human rights lawyers from the previous era were taken care of in the aptly called "709 crack-down". This was followed by the CCP telling the online gaming industry how much time children are allowed to play. The religious practitioners are also being reminded that CCP stance trumps their beliefs.

Now, to someone with my baggage this looks downright scary. CCP, whose best behaviour under Deng was still below the international standards of decency, is telling the emerging social powers of business, media and gaming to do as they are told. There will be no loosening of the political control over every aspect of organised life in China.

We are seeing a clear tightening of the screws after a free market phase engineered to generate economic momentum which is then used for an ideologically driven push. In China all internal dissent has been suppressed so the push will be outward. Which way?

TBC

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Re: China [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #27506400 - 10/16/21 08:53 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Whenever someone calls the Nazis "National Socialists" and equates them with the USSR and the CCP, a lot of small hairs on the back of my neck stand right the fuck up.

The Nazis privatized as much as they could, including the banks, the railroads, and the steel works. They also privatized as many social programs as possible. The Nazis were very much in favor of entrepreneurship and private property. At this point in time, the Nazis were building up their military, and the military had become a foundation for the rest of the economy and represented a significant portion of government spending. This necessitated scrapping much of the government for spare cash to fund the whole thing, and of course the business owners that got the lucrative military contracts were well aligned with the goals and ideologies of the Nazi party. That's like saying that Raytheon and Boeing disagree with the US government stance on war.

Further, businesses in Nazi Germany got everything they wanted from the Nazis: an end to unions, the government using force to break up strikes, an extremely low minimum wage causing low wages across the economy, and the ability to report ":undesirables" to the SS. No shit they were aligned. Businesses made record profits with the anti-worker policies put in place by the Nazis.

So yeah, private business in Nazi Germany was treated a lot more like private business is currently treated in the US: venerated, revered, and elevated to damn near divine status at any cost.

Personally, I see a lot of parallels between China and the early USSR, in the 50s and early 60s. Big economic boom, very promising. Back under Khrushchev, people legitimately thought that the USSR was on track to overtake the US within a decade or two.

China will almost certainly overtake the US in a decade, because the US is pretty openly in decline right now. I wonder how far Chinese momentum will carry it past Xi Jinping.

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27506813 - 10/16/21 03:08 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

The Nazis liked socialism so much that industrial giants like Henry Ford beat off to them constantly

:rolleyes:


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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27521462 - 10/28/21 12:19 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

OP - part 3

So, having eliminated all internal dissent - where will CCP turn its attention next? Well, it has not gone unnoticed that China needs breeding age women for her surplus male population. Here is my speculation - the cultural destruction and Han-isation of Uyghurs will provide a blueprint for the eventual subjugation of South East Asia and Polynesia.

Described in the first part of the OP with all its frightening efficiency, re-programming of the Uyghurs is a vast improvement on the botched job of turning Tibetans into communists. CCP has since learnt that butchery does not produce the desired results - or at least not butchery alone. The masterful stroke of introducing Han males into ethnic Uyghur households - as social workers, caretaker husbands for the wives of jailed men - is what is new. Tibetans were never being ethnically absorbed this way but I guess desperate times mean desperate measures. I would hate to be a young male in one of the Han-ified countries but I guess there will be many coal mines to man (in a gender specific meaning) in the brave new world of China.

So how will this push even start in a new country with no territorial disputes with China? Well, we only need to look where it has already started. Sri Lanka has signed the land lease for China to build a naval base on the island. China had lent corrupt politicians billions for failed projects and this is what Sri Lanka had to do to appease. Similar scenarios are playing out in half of Polynesia - loans for a wharf, Chinese come to build it, some stay and start businesses, take local wives, politicians buy big houses and allow more Chinese business in. So when a Chinese gunboat dock at the new wharf - and it now only has to sail from Sri Lanka  - the list of the local leaders to disappear will be already prepared...

This is the soft path for countries which will bend over. Which leaves the likes of Japan, India, Australia, US. What are the odds in the upcoming clashes in the contested areas - starting with the South China Sea? Well, we only need to look at the clashes which are already happening.

TBC

Edited by Metoo (10/28/21 02:07 PM)

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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27521484 - 10/28/21 12:29 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

The South China Sea belongs to America it says so in the Bible.


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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27521742 - 10/28/21 04:11 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Part 4 of the OP

There is no better place to look for the defining characteristics of China's territorial push than the South China Sea.

Parts of it are claimed by the neighbouring countries - Taiwan, Phillipines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia etc - but the fate of the entire region was sealed when China installed SAMs on their island bases. This gave them enough control of the skies to continue the methodical operation to push out the competitors from the sea. For those who are not aware, China operates a huge fleet of nominally civilian fishing boats - under military command. These ships have strengthened hulls and have been designed to harass, intimidate and if necessary ram other commercial vessels. They are typically shadowed by the Chinese Coast Guard or Navy units which will step in if the maritime militia are challenged. It is not known what weapons the militia boats carry but the sheer size of the fleet makes confronting them very tricky - the recent mass mooring at the disputed Whitsun Reef involved 220 vessels.

Even first rate navies are not really equipped to confront this style of asymmetric challenge. In fact I believe that a carrier group would choose to back off when facing this:



Navy will not fire first at fishing vessels but also can't allow them to get close in case they have RPGs or portable anti-ship missiles on board. So from the strategic perspective China has already taken complete control of the disputed areas because neither local commercial interests nor foreign navies can challenge them. The same will soon apply to any geographical region within the (rapidly expanding) reach of the Chinese Navy.

Which is a good place to pause the strategic speculations, in preparation for the final part of the OP, devoted to the Orwellian dimension of things.

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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27522487 - 10/29/21 06:45 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Here's an interesting article from a real journalist where he touches on China (below the vid). He is the man behind the documentary The Coming War on China which the Neocon propagandists are doing their level best to promote on and offline despite the fact it would mean the end of all of us...

"The Coming War on China, from award winning journalist John Pilger, reveals what the news doesn’t – that the world’s greatest military power, the United States, and the world’s second economic power, China, both nuclear-armed, may well be on the road to war.

Nuclear war is not only imaginable, but planned. The greatest build-up of NATO military forces since the Second World War is under way on the western borders of Russia. On the other side of the world, the rise of China is viewed in Washington as a threat to American dominance.

To counter this, President Obama announced a ‘pivot to Asia’, which meant that almost two-thirds of all US naval forces would be transferred to Asia and the Pacific, their weapons aimed at China. A policy which has been taken up by his successor Donald Trump, who during his election campaign said “We can’t continue to allow China to rape our country and that’s what they’re doing”.

Filmed on five possible front-lines across Asia and the Pacific over two years, the story is told in chapters that connect a secret and ‘forgotten’ past to the rapacious actions of great power today and to a resistance, of which little is known in the West."




We asked former Guardian columnist John Pilger for his thoughts on ‘Capitalism’s Conscience’. He responded:

‘Liberal journalism, such as the Guardian’s, was always a loose extension of establishment power. But something has changed since the rise of Blairism. The spaces allotted to independent journalists (myself included) have vanished. The dissent that was tolerated, even celebrated when I arrived in Fleet Street in the 1960s, has regressed to a metaphoric underground as liberal capitalism sheds the last illusions of democracy.

‘This is a seismic shift, with the Guardian and the BBC – far more influential than those on the accredited right — policing the new “groupthink”, as Robert Parry called it, ensuring its politics and hypocrisies, its omissions and fabrications while pursuing the enemies of the new national security state.

‘Journalism students need to study this urgently if they are to understand that the true source of the contrivance known as “fake news” is not merely social media, but a liberal “mainstream” self-anointed with a false respectability that claims to challenge corrupt and warmongering power but, in reality, courts and protects it, and colludes with it.

‘This is the Guardian today. Rid of those journalists it cannot control, the porous borders they once crossed long closed, the Guardian more than ever represents the world view of its hero, Blair, the “mystical” lost leader the paper promoted with evangelical fervour and has since done its best to rehabilitate, a man responsible for human carnage beyond the imagination.

‘To its credit, Des Freedman’s anthology includes a scattering of sharp honesty, especially the chapters by Alan MacLeod, Mark Curtis and Matt Kennard. But the omissions are shocking: notably the Guardian’s “nuanced” (a favourite weasel word) support for the dismemberment of nations: from Yugoslavia to Syria, and for its immoral backing of the current MI6/CIA propaganda war against nuclear-armed powers Russia and China.

‘An example of this is a recent stream of US-sourced “human rights” propaganda from Taiwan, much of it publicly discredited, that beckons war with China. This has yet to match the output of the Guardian’s chief Russiaphobe, Luke Harding, who ensures that all evil leads to Vladimir Putin.

‘We are given scant idea how the people of these hellish places live and think, for they are the modern “other”. That the Chinese, according to Harvard, Pew and numerous other studies, are the most contented human beings on earth is irrelevant, or to quote Harold Pinter, “it didn’t matter, it was of no interest”.

‘It was Harding and two others who claimed in the Guardian that Trump’s campaign manager, Paul Manafort, had held secret talks with Julian Assange at the Ecuadorean embassy. Discredited by the former Ecuadorean consul Fidel Narvaez as ‘fake’ (and by those like myself who were subjected to the security screening at the embassy), the story was typical of the decade-long smear campaign against Assange.

‘The campaign was one of the lowest points in British journalism. While collecting the kudos, circulation, profit and book and Hollywood deals for Assange’s work, the Guardian played a pivotal role. Although Mark Curtis touches on the latter years, young journalists need to know the whole disgraceful saga and its significance in crushing those who challenge power from outside the liberal fence and refuse to join the “club”.

‘The principal Guardian ringmaster was Alan Rusbridger, who was editor in chief for 20 years. (Rusbridger also oversaw the Observer, the Guardian’s sister paper, which during the build-up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 ran a rabid pro-war campaign that included fabrications about WMD for which its reporter, David Rose, later personally apologised – unlike his editors).

‘Rusbridger has lately re-invented himself as a media moralist. “Only those with the highest professional and ethical standards,” he wrote in 2019, “will rise above the oceans of mediocrity and malignity and survive.” While Rusbridger rises above the oceans to promote his new book on the ethics of “proper news”, Julian Assange, the truth telling journalist betrayed by the Guardian, remains in solitary confinement in Belmarsh prison.

‘Much of Freedman’s anthology is the work of media academics, whose takeover of the training of journalists is relatively recent – well, it’s within my own career. Some have done fine work, including Freedman himself. But the question begs: how have they and their colleagues changed the media for the better when so much of it has become an echo chamber of rapacious, mendacious power? The craft of journalism deserves better.’ (Email to Media Lens, 9 March 2021)


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Edited by wolf8312 (10/29/21 07:44 AM)

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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27525922 - 10/31/21 11:41 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
After begrudgingly admitting that there isn’t really a Muslim genocide happening in Xinjiang, the AP is now reporting that China is rolling back their genocide, as if political pressure from the noble West is what stopped something that never really happened in the first place.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9




That's the interesting thing about these ideologues. There are conspiracy theorists who assume them to be all-knowing and omnipotent, each move they make all part of a grand strategic master plan, when in fact, they are incredibly stupid and impulsive people who are sacrificing their (or America's) best proverbial chess pieces in the long term for short term gains.

They've utterly obliterated even a pretence of US claims to the moral high ground during the last 20 years of war, and with the Assange case, and in reporting China's 'genocide' make a global mockery of the western media apparently unaware that the genius of the western propaganda of the past was its subtlety and selectivity (they didn't just make shit up or not if they could help it, and they certainly didn't use censorship as they are doing now!).

One can only bullshit other people for so long before others stop paying attention to everything that person is saying about anything.

Their domestic policy is equally baffling because it seems to be operating upon the dangerous assumption that creating an unstable and divided society will make them more powerful (like that couldn't backfire) and all this while becoming ever more belligerent towards two global powers that are increasingly more stable and united than the increasingly disunited states of America.

This video details the Huawei affair and is making the same point:



--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

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Edited by wolf8312 (10/31/21 11:57 PM)

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: China [Re: wolf8312]
    #27526166 - 11/01/21 09:31 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

The obliteration of even a pretense of US claims to the moral high ground happened before most of the people on this website were born. I would place it around the middle of the Viet Nam police action. Even LBJ knew it when he decided not to run in 68. Most of the rest of the country knew it by a few years later. The rest of the world has known it for a long time, but there are military alliances, foreign aid and international commerce that keep them from bringing it up too often.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27526234 - 11/01/21 10:42 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Okay but remember WW2? Fucking WORLD CHAMPS


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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27526340 - 11/01/21 12:25 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Brian Jones said:
Most of the rest of the country knew it by a few years later. The rest of the world has known it for a long time, but there are military alliances, foreign aid and international commerce that keep them from bringing it up too often.




But to what extent do/will they understand?

https://www.bitchute.com/video/8CeRGYK20GLO/


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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27527276 - 11/02/21 09:07 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Okay but remember WW2? Fucking WORLD CHAMPS




We did good with that one, but also took credit for the job USSR had almost finished in Europe before we got there.

I find the conspiracy theory intriguing that FDR knew Pearl Harbor would happen and let it happen, so we could go from isolationist to Fucking WORLD CHAMPS.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27527281 - 11/02/21 09:14 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

The Australians did warn us :shrug:


Either way, our blockade of Japan was an act of war, and any military man worth his salt would’ve been prepared for retaliation.


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Re: China [Re: wolf8312]
    #27527284 - 11/02/21 09:17 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

wolf8312 said:
Brian Jones said:
Most of the rest of the country knew it by a few years later. The rest of the world has known it for a long time, but there are military alliances, foreign aid and international commerce that keep them from bringing it up too often.




But to what extent do/will they understand?

https://www.bitchute.com/video/8CeRGYK20GLO/</font>




This is what I was going to say before I looked at your link. We were well on our way to understanding until 9/11 caused a whole lot of temporary insanity and we went batshit crazy for a while.

This is what I came up with after I clicked your link that I watched for about 4 seconds, and searched media bias of bitchute.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/bitchute/
https://www.dailydot.com/upstream/bitchute/
https://www.adl.org/blog/bitchute-a-hotbed-of-hate

Maybe someone can summarize it for me.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27527324 - 11/02/21 09:44 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Judging by the thumbnail being an image of WTC7 I’m guessing it’s a truther video.


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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27527384 - 11/02/21 10:41 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Does that mean we did it to ourselves so we could start wars?


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I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27527491 - 11/02/21 01:02 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I would wager that’s the crux of the video, although it could be something like “the government always lies to get us into wars,” which is basically true.


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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27528607 - 11/03/21 10:30 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Well it's not like we haven't done that before. But I don't think we could have got away with 9/11. Anyway, there would have been much less messy ways to start a war on the other side of the world than dive bombing NYC. We have reached the stage of history where there is going to be a conspiracy theory for everything. It's Warholian.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27528957 - 11/03/21 03:40 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Is bitchute a news source? I thought it was just like a shit-tier knockoff youtube.

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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27529703 - 11/04/21 06:01 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

wolf8312 said:
Brian Jones said:
Most of the rest of the country knew it by a few years later. The rest of the world has known it for a long time, but there are military alliances, foreign aid and international commerce that keep them from bringing it up too often.




But to what extent do/will they understand?

https://www.bitchute.com/video/8CeRGYK20GLO/</font>




This is what I was going to say before I looked at your link. We were well on our way to understanding until 9/11 caused a whole lot of temporary insanity and we went batshit crazy for a while.

This is what I came up with after I clicked your link that I watched for about 4 seconds, and searched media bias of bitchute.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/bitchute/
https://www.dailydot.com/upstream/bitchute/
https://www.adl.org/blog/bitchute-a-hotbed-of-hate

Maybe someone can summarize it for me.





This fact-checker is funded in part or in whole by the American government!
:smile:

Bitchute is a video platform. It does not produce the videos themselves so to imply that the video itself lacks merit because one of your media fact-checkers says the platform itself is "a hotbed of hate" is like saying that a video about mathematics must be dismissed because it sits next to a video of Hitler at Nuremberg. They are different videos!

The documentary itself is about a 4-year research project conducted at the University of Alaska Fairbanks by professor J. Leroy Hulsey concluding that the NIST reports findings on WT7 were incorrect.

Maybe the university itself is a hotbed of hate and extremism and old J. Leroy Hulsey and the researchers themselves are dangerous conspiracy theorists (no doubt!) but see for yourself I guess!

It's ironic though how people need to invent conspiracy theories (the old professor/engineer is clearly in it for the money) in order to debunk them and then turn around and mock conspiracy theorists!

Remember the documentary would not even need to be on Bitchute were it not for the fact that such videos are now increasingly being banned from YouTube itself which should be a massive red flag in itself.

Try even typing things like this into their comments sections and refresh the page!

You may claim in response that YT is a private company so it is not censorship, but remember it is big tech that controls the internet and online information in China, not the police.

Quote:


This is a study of the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 (WTC 7) — a 47-story building that suffered a total collapse at 5:20 PM on September 11, 2001, following the horrible events of that morning. The objective of the study was threefold: (1) Examine the structural response of WTC 7 to fire loads that may have occurred on September 11, 2001; (2) Rule out scenarios that could not have caused the observed collapse; and (3) Identify types of failures and their locations that may have caused the total collapse to occur as observed.

The UAF research team utilized three approaches for examining the structural response of WTC 7 to the conditions that may have occurred on September 11, 2001. First, we simulated the local structural response to fire loading that may have occurred below Floor 13, where most of the fires in WTC 7 are reported to have occurred. Second, we supplemented our own simulation by examining the collapse initiation hypothesis developed by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Third, we simulated a number of scenarios within the overall structural system in order to determine what types of local failures and their locations may have caused the total collapse to occur as observed.

The principal conclusion of our study is that fire did not cause the collapse of WTC 7 on 9/11, contrary to the conclusions of NIST and private engineering firms that studied the collapse. The secondary conclusion of our study is that the collapse of WTC 7 was a global failure involving the near-simultaneous failure of every column in the building.




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Re: China [Re: wolf8312]
    #27529766 - 11/04/21 07:22 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I'll never understand why people are so focused on WTC 7. That said, low level level physics pretty well explains why a building would collapse under those conditions. Buildings are in no way designed to sustain damage from other buildings and additionally being set on fire by debris. You only have to heat steel to around 400F for it to loose temper, meaning the structural property of the steel that prevents brittleness among other things, is simply lost at those temperatures. This is why steel buildings are heavily fire proofed around all of the load bearing steel. Take a look at the interior of the next modern steel parking garage you are in, all of the steel will be coated in a rough looking padding. That is fire proofing. In most cases (this one included) that fire proofing is passive, once it gets too hot, it burns or deteriorates. It's basically insulation to keep the structure cool enough for evacuations to complete, not a feature to prevent long term damage. That's where fire suppression takes over. So sustained fires will destroy the structure, especially if fire suppression is insufficient as we saw at WTC 7. WTC 7 is a nice case study on what happens when you get sustained fires in addition to structural damage and a lack of fire suppression. It was a perfect storm.


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Re: China [Re: christopera]
    #27530884 - 11/05/21 06:29 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
I'll never understand why people are so focused on WTC 7. That said, low level level physics pretty well explains why a building would collapse under those conditions. Buildings are in no way designed to sustain damage from other buildings and additionally being set on fire by debris. You only have to heat steel to around 400F for it to loose temper, meaning the structural property of the steel that prevents brittleness among other things, is simply lost at those temperatures. This is why steel buildings are heavily fire proofed around all of the load bearing steel. Take a look at the interior of the next modern steel parking garage you are in, all of the steel will be coated in a rough looking padding. That is fire proofing. In most cases (this one included) that fire proofing is passive, once it gets too hot, it burns or deteriorates. It's basically insulation to keep the structure cool enough for evacuations to complete, not a feature to prevent long term damage. That's where fire suppression takes over. So sustained fires will destroy the structure, especially if fire suppression is insufficient as we saw at WTC 7. WTC 7 is a nice case study on what happens when you get sustained fires in addition to structural damage and a lack of fire suppression. It was a perfect storm.




Well even NIST itself said that 7 did not collapse due to falling debris but collapsed solely due to fire, so you are contradicting the official account itself there bud!

But can you honestly say that you personally know for sure that what you're saying above is correct, or are these just your own opinions reformulated as declarative statements/facts? 

So let's say it's fire (though there is no evidence whatsoever of a raging inferno) then, not debris, that can cause steel-framed high rises to obliterate themselves in roughly 6/7 seconds. This despite it never happening before 911, but happening on 911 for the first, second and third time in recorded history (PxPxP).

Maybe that... could happen... but you seem to be saying that not only could it happen but that it is intuitive and all perfectly natural and to be expected.

Remember too it wasn't simply the collapse of the building that contradicts the fire hypothesis, but the mathematical precision/symmetry, and the rate and acceleration (see video below) at which the building fell. If you read the report cited above, or watch the documentary you will see that the researchers did indeed account for the fireproofing in their models and used minimum and maximum bounds (fireproofing and no fireproofing) in their calculations.

Aside from looking at a wall in a car park how did you yourself formulate your own calculations on which your own factual (or declarative's) conclusions were/are based? Again opinion right?



Anyway sorry! Not going to get back into the 911 debates as they're a fool's errand.

But on the same general topic guys, I highly recommend you check out the Belmarsh tribunal attended by British MP's and various (real) journalists, lawyers and whistleblowers (Snowdon makes an appearance). Some very powerful and stirring (though infuriating and depressing) testimony.

I and BrianJones touched before on the extent to which the western public really understands what is happening and the malevolent criminal forces now in power in the west. I personally don't believe the public at large has any idea about the nature of the crimes being discussed in that tribunal (some shocking testimony) so if you do care please share the video!

Great to see there are people in power and journalism who do have the integrity and bravery to stand up.



--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown


Edited by wolf8312 (11/05/21 06:35 AM)

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Re: China [Re: wolf8312] * 1
    #27530892 - 11/05/21 06:43 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

I never said it collapsed because of the damage. I said it wasn't intended to take on damage and sustain fire, especially not with a poorly performing fire suppression system.

That said, the fire obviously damaged the building because it fell. The proof is in the pudding. What isn't in that pudding? A controlled demolition or any of the other bullshit that gets talked about.


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Re: China [Re: christopera]
    #27530898 - 11/05/21 06:52 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
I never said it collapsed because of the damage. I said it wasn't intended to take on damage and sustain fire, especially not with a poorly performing fire suppression system.

That said, the fire obviously damaged the building because it fell. The proof is in the pudding. What isn't in that pudding? A controlled demolition or any of the other bullshit that gets talked about.




Well you’re welcome to your opinion!


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Re: China [Re: wolf8312]
    #27530909 - 11/05/21 07:05 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

You posted a video of it happening. It's right there, no opinions required.


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Re: China [Re: christopera]
    #27530915 - 11/05/21 07:08 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
You posted a video of it happening. It's right there, no opinions required.




Sure…


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Re: China [Re: wolf8312]
    #27530921 - 11/05/21 07:12 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

People love to argue, "well it could never happen that way" and yet there it is.

Correlation isn't causation and things that are perceived as weird usually aren't weird at all.


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Edited by christopera (11/05/21 07:13 AM)

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Re: China [Re: christopera]
    #27530922 - 11/05/21 07:14 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
People love to argue, "well it could never happen that way" and yet there it is.

Correlation isn't causation and things that are perceived as weird usually aren't weird at all.




:thumbup:


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