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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27500192 - 10/10/21 10:23 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

That's why China will just gradually buy us, with our economic elites in on the deal. That way we wont have an excuse to nuke them.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27501407 - 10/11/21 10:38 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I think perhaps the biggest mistake where America foreign policy is concerned is in assuming that the US welcomes/demands democracy in other nations because it cares so very deeply about the wellbeing and freedoms of other peoples!

I would argue the real reason it wants democracy and freedoms in other countries is that it wants more freedom for itself and its operatives within these other countries.

Once a country (especially a country the US considers hostile) opens up and allows democratic freedoms to flourish what you are then going to see is opposition groups popping up that are ostensibly patriotic but are actually just the American government subverting another country's political system/process.

This not only happens in far off lands after all, but is happening inside Britain (and Australia) where these days our foreign policy is almost entirely dictated by the US (not that Boris isn't happy going along with it) and is not only damaging to British national interests but is also putting Britain in danger for no logical reason.

Christ, if you look at the Biden presidency it seems as if it is even happening within the US as that is a man who does not strike me as being in control of anything!

It's almost creepy...   

It makes more sense IMO that the US has been focusing on the Xin Jiang issue not because it cares about human rights (I mean come on) but because the heightened security in the region (no terrorist attacks in the area for a number of years now) has made it much more difficult for its minions to operate in and ultimately destabilize or influence.

The same goes for Taiwan and Hongkong. Democracy is now little more than a tacky American franchise that the US can happily infiltrate and then influence/control, of course, they want everyone to be free and democratic! 

The irony of all this is the more the US has pushed for democratic freedoms inside of China the more authoritarian China has become and to be honest, has been required to become in order to keep the US and its operatives out!


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"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown


Edited by wolf8312 (10/11/21 11:38 PM)

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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27502712 - 10/13/21 04:44 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Last time someone threatened US hegemony we threatened the world with nuclear holocaust. I don’t see why this time will be any different.


things are different china is fighting a economic war with us. An they know the current administration dosent have what it takes to act fast an take action if there was war to break out. China knows it has a nice window of opportunity because they know biden will not challenge them or call them out.

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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27502713 - 10/13/21 04:45 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
That's why China will just gradually buy us, with our economic elites in on the deal. That way we wont have an excuse to nuke them.


its allreaddy happening.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27502767 - 10/13/21 06:58 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

After begrudgingly admitting that there isn’t really a Muslim genocide happening in Xinjiang, the AP is now reporting that China is rolling back their genocide, as if political pressure from the noble West is what stopped something that never really happened in the first place.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9


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Offlineqman
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Re: China [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27502993 - 10/13/21 10:36 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Last time someone threatened US hegemony we threatened the world with nuclear holocaust. I don’t see why this time will be any different.


things are different china is fighting a economic war with us. An they know the current administration dosent have what it takes to act fast an take action if there was war to break out. China knows it has a nice window of opportunity because they know biden will not challenge them or call them out.




Please explain how there's an economic war with China when there's trade with the two nations that was $635 billion in 2019?  An economic war with other nations doesn't involve agreeable trade. There's no economic war taking place between the US and China, that's pure propaganda.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: China [Re: qman]
    #27503040 - 10/13/21 11:28 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

We buy more from China than anyone else. We sell more to Canada. We are doing a hell of a job of supporting China's economy.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27503088 - 10/13/21 12:09 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Not to mention exports to the EU are double in China compared to what they are here. Maybe that’s why we’re trying so hard to bring India into the fold. We attack China we’re gonna need another gigantic population of poor people to make all our cheap crap.

Half of the general public’s animosity towards China is the understanding that our standard of living will continue to decline as they rise. And if we want to return to the glory days of the 1950’s we’ll need to repeat the circumstances of those days; us being the only stable industrial superpower. But the hawks in DC aren’t antagonizing China so we can bring back manufacturing jobs, they just see China as an emerging threat to US hegemony.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27504045 - 10/14/21 10:13 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I think they're flogging a dead horse with U.S. hegemony. We can talk the talk, but we can't etc. etc. It shouldn't take too long for the whole world to figure it out. What we have is a bunch of nuclear missiles, and now we're saying the hypersonic ones are just way too expensive so a couple days ago we told the defense contrators they have design cheaper ones. If Putin is to be believed they are way ahead on hypersonic, so I guess our arsenal is obsolete. It's probably good in a way. The hypersonic are far superior for first strike, but we still have so many OG ICBMs we still have a deterrent.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27504054 - 10/14/21 10:23 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Hypersonic/regular doesn't really matter. Until we have missiles traveling at the speed of light, there will be a few minute window in which we can counter-launch and end humanity.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27504360 - 10/14/21 03:44 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I think I said that. If we don't have superiority or even parity at hypersonic technology, that removes first strike as on option. I'm going on the assumption that the U.S. has always been the biggest threat to world annihilation.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27504387 - 10/14/21 04:17 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I guess I never considered "first strike" as a viable option past like, 1949. We had a five year window during which first strike was possible because the US was the only nuclear power, but back then we didn't have enough nukes to actually do an effective first strike. Operation Unthinkable was quite aptly named.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27504699 - 10/14/21 08:11 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

If you're going to have them, you have to assume somebody would strike first. I go under the assumption it would be us.
I have no idea how close we've come, but the scenarios were discussed by us continuously. A big scenario was the Soviet tank advantage in the 1980's. It ran like this. We couldn't possibly stop them if they conventionally tried to take Western Europe, so we would be forced to use tactical nukes on the battle field. No one on either side thought it could deescalate after that point, so do you wait to see who goes goes strategic first, or do you hit them with a massive first strike.

Everyone on the left believed the Reagan military buildup was all about first strike. The MX missile he named the Peacekeeper was designed to take out their silos buried under tons of concrete. So why destroy their missiles that haven't been deployed to the surface if we hadn't already attacked? If they struck first these missiles in reserve would have already been deployed to the surface because that takes precious time. The other Reagan initiative was the Star Wars missile defense stem. The week he first announced it's development, the entire Physics Department at the University of Illinois signed a letter saying none of them would work on it, because it's true purpose was stopping a counterattack. IDK, but that is how the left viewed the last great stage of the cold war.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

Edited by Brian Jones (10/14/21 08:16 PM)

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OfflineMetoo
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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27506202 - 10/16/21 02:51 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

This is second part of the OP.

With my background one always scans for signs of a semi-autocratic socialist/communist system going full 1984. One of these litmus tests is the way private business in general is treated.

National Socialists settled for the complete political control over business which, nominally, remained in private ownerships. Krupp was run by Krupp but NSDAP told Krupp what to make. The level of control included - please plant a mental marker here - being able to line up and imprison any business owner seen as uncooperative. This is the national brand of socialism in its full destructive rage - party officials deciding what a nominally capitalist economy does through extra judicial blackmail. Second marker - there was no effective judicial recourse against any of this in 1930s Germany.

Inter-national Socialists led by Lenin went the other way by rounding up and shooting the business owners - both figuratively and literary. But even they allowed the period of NEP in early 1920s when privately owned business was tolerated. This was followed by a considerable tightening of the screws under Stalin - the budding social class of entrepreneurs was wiped out.

On a personal note, my granddad started taxi companies three times and was three times destroyed. Twice by wars and once by a political clamp-down following a brief period of a market economy experiment. No legal recourse to political decisions for him.

Now, many people - writer included - thought that the free market reforms under Deng would lead to a sustained political softening, right? The economic freedom leads to political freedom model? Well, going by my two markers this is not what is happening.

Following a period of escalating rhetoric  CCP announced a while ago that all businesses are expected to tow the official political line. Some Chinese businesses seen as overinvested oversees were punished by administrative decision leading directly to market losses.  A number of business owners either disappeared or were sentenced on charges like "obstructing public affairs and provoking quarrels" (Sun Dawu - sentenced to 18 years). The well known actress, Zhao Wei, disappeared physically and in a truelly Orwellian style was wiped out from the social media.

But, hang on, these people were rich enough to hire a lawyer? No, because all human rights lawyers from the previous era were taken care of in the aptly called "709 crack-down". This was followed by the CCP telling the online gaming industry how much time children are allowed to play. The religious practitioners are also being reminded that CCP stance trumps their beliefs.

Now, to someone with my baggage this looks downright scary. CCP, whose best behaviour under Deng was still below the international standards of decency, is telling the emerging social powers of business, media and gaming to do as they are told. There will be no loosening of the political control over every aspect of organised life in China.

We are seeing a clear tightening of the screws after a free market phase engineered to generate economic momentum which is then used for an ideologically driven push. In China all internal dissent has been suppressed so the push will be outward. Which way?

TBC

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #27506400 - 10/16/21 08:53 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Whenever someone calls the Nazis "National Socialists" and equates them with the USSR and the CCP, a lot of small hairs on the back of my neck stand right the fuck up.

The Nazis privatized as much as they could, including the banks, the railroads, and the steel works. They also privatized as many social programs as possible. The Nazis were very much in favor of entrepreneurship and private property. At this point in time, the Nazis were building up their military, and the military had become a foundation for the rest of the economy and represented a significant portion of government spending. This necessitated scrapping much of the government for spare cash to fund the whole thing, and of course the business owners that got the lucrative military contracts were well aligned with the goals and ideologies of the Nazi party. That's like saying that Raytheon and Boeing disagree with the US government stance on war.

Further, businesses in Nazi Germany got everything they wanted from the Nazis: an end to unions, the government using force to break up strikes, an extremely low minimum wage causing low wages across the economy, and the ability to report ":undesirables" to the SS. No shit they were aligned. Businesses made record profits with the anti-worker policies put in place by the Nazis.

So yeah, private business in Nazi Germany was treated a lot more like private business is currently treated in the US: venerated, revered, and elevated to damn near divine status at any cost.

Personally, I see a lot of parallels between China and the early USSR, in the 50s and early 60s. Big economic boom, very promising. Back under Khrushchev, people legitimately thought that the USSR was on track to overtake the US within a decade or two.

China will almost certainly overtake the US in a decade, because the US is pretty openly in decline right now. I wonder how far Chinese momentum will carry it past Xi Jinping.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27506813 - 10/16/21 03:08 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

The Nazis liked socialism so much that industrial giants like Henry Ford beat off to them constantly

:rolleyes:


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27521462 - 10/28/21 12:19 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

OP - part 3

So, having eliminated all internal dissent - where will CCP turn its attention next? Well, it has not gone unnoticed that China needs breeding age women for her surplus male population. Here is my speculation - the cultural destruction and Han-isation of Uyghurs will provide a blueprint for the eventual subjugation of South East Asia and Polynesia.

Described in the first part of the OP with all its frightening efficiency, re-programming of the Uyghurs is a vast improvement on the botched job of turning Tibetans into communists. CCP has since learnt that butchery does not produce the desired results - or at least not butchery alone. The masterful stroke of introducing Han males into ethnic Uyghur households - as social workers, caretaker husbands for the wives of jailed men - is what is new. Tibetans were never being ethnically absorbed this way but I guess desperate times mean desperate measures. I would hate to be a young male in one of the Han-ified countries but I guess there will be many coal mines to man (in a gender specific meaning) in the brave new world of China.

So how will this push even start in a new country with no territorial disputes with China? Well, we only need to look where it has already started. Sri Lanka has signed the land lease for China to build a naval base on the island. China had lent corrupt politicians billions for failed projects and this is what Sri Lanka had to do to appease. Similar scenarios are playing out in half of Polynesia - loans for a wharf, Chinese come to build it, some stay and start businesses, take local wives, politicians buy big houses and allow more Chinese business in. So when a Chinese gunboat dock at the new wharf - and it now only has to sail from Sri Lanka  - the list of the local leaders to disappear will be already prepared...

This is the soft path for countries which will bend over. Which leaves the likes of Japan, India, Australia, US. What are the odds in the upcoming clashes in the contested areas - starting with the South China Sea? Well, we only need to look at the clashes which are already happening.

TBC

Edited by Metoo (10/28/21 02:07 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27521484 - 10/28/21 12:29 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

The South China Sea belongs to America it says so in the Bible.


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27521742 - 10/28/21 04:11 PM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Part 4 of the OP

There is no better place to look for the defining characteristics of China's territorial push than the South China Sea.

Parts of it are claimed by the neighbouring countries - Taiwan, Phillipines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia etc - but the fate of the entire region was sealed when China installed SAMs on their island bases. This gave them enough control of the skies to continue the methodical operation to push out the competitors from the sea. For those who are not aware, China operates a huge fleet of nominally civilian fishing boats - under military command. These ships have strengthened hulls and have been designed to harass, intimidate and if necessary ram other commercial vessels. They are typically shadowed by the Chinese Coast Guard or Navy units which will step in if the maritime militia are challenged. It is not known what weapons the militia boats carry but the sheer size of the fleet makes confronting them very tricky - the recent mass mooring at the disputed Whitsun Reef involved 220 vessels.

Even first rate navies are not really equipped to confront this style of asymmetric challenge. In fact I believe that a carrier group would choose to back off when facing this:



Navy will not fire first at fishing vessels but also can't allow them to get close in case they have RPGs or portable anti-ship missiles on board. So from the strategic perspective China has already taken complete control of the disputed areas because neither local commercial interests nor foreign navies can challenge them. The same will soon apply to any geographical region within the (rapidly expanding) reach of the Chinese Navy.

Which is a good place to pause the strategic speculations, in preparation for the final part of the OP, devoted to the Orwellian dimension of things.

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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27522487 - 10/29/21 06:45 AM (2 years, 6 months ago)

Here's an interesting article from a real journalist where he touches on China (below the vid). He is the man behind the documentary The Coming War on China which the Neocon propagandists are doing their level best to promote on and offline despite the fact it would mean the end of all of us...

"The Coming War on China, from award winning journalist John Pilger, reveals what the news doesn’t – that the world’s greatest military power, the United States, and the world’s second economic power, China, both nuclear-armed, may well be on the road to war.

Nuclear war is not only imaginable, but planned. The greatest build-up of NATO military forces since the Second World War is under way on the western borders of Russia. On the other side of the world, the rise of China is viewed in Washington as a threat to American dominance.

To counter this, President Obama announced a ‘pivot to Asia’, which meant that almost two-thirds of all US naval forces would be transferred to Asia and the Pacific, their weapons aimed at China. A policy which has been taken up by his successor Donald Trump, who during his election campaign said “We can’t continue to allow China to rape our country and that’s what they’re doing”.

Filmed on five possible front-lines across Asia and the Pacific over two years, the story is told in chapters that connect a secret and ‘forgotten’ past to the rapacious actions of great power today and to a resistance, of which little is known in the West."




We asked former Guardian columnist John Pilger for his thoughts on ‘Capitalism’s Conscience’. He responded:

‘Liberal journalism, such as the Guardian’s, was always a loose extension of establishment power. But something has changed since the rise of Blairism. The spaces allotted to independent journalists (myself included) have vanished. The dissent that was tolerated, even celebrated when I arrived in Fleet Street in the 1960s, has regressed to a metaphoric underground as liberal capitalism sheds the last illusions of democracy.

‘This is a seismic shift, with the Guardian and the BBC – far more influential than those on the accredited right — policing the new “groupthink”, as Robert Parry called it, ensuring its politics and hypocrisies, its omissions and fabrications while pursuing the enemies of the new national security state.

‘Journalism students need to study this urgently if they are to understand that the true source of the contrivance known as “fake news” is not merely social media, but a liberal “mainstream” self-anointed with a false respectability that claims to challenge corrupt and warmongering power but, in reality, courts and protects it, and colludes with it.

‘This is the Guardian today. Rid of those journalists it cannot control, the porous borders they once crossed long closed, the Guardian more than ever represents the world view of its hero, Blair, the “mystical” lost leader the paper promoted with evangelical fervour and has since done its best to rehabilitate, a man responsible for human carnage beyond the imagination.

‘To its credit, Des Freedman’s anthology includes a scattering of sharp honesty, especially the chapters by Alan MacLeod, Mark Curtis and Matt Kennard. But the omissions are shocking: notably the Guardian’s “nuanced” (a favourite weasel word) support for the dismemberment of nations: from Yugoslavia to Syria, and for its immoral backing of the current MI6/CIA propaganda war against nuclear-armed powers Russia and China.

‘An example of this is a recent stream of US-sourced “human rights” propaganda from Taiwan, much of it publicly discredited, that beckons war with China. This has yet to match the output of the Guardian’s chief Russiaphobe, Luke Harding, who ensures that all evil leads to Vladimir Putin.

‘We are given scant idea how the people of these hellish places live and think, for they are the modern “other”. That the Chinese, according to Harvard, Pew and numerous other studies, are the most contented human beings on earth is irrelevant, or to quote Harold Pinter, “it didn’t matter, it was of no interest”.

‘It was Harding and two others who claimed in the Guardian that Trump’s campaign manager, Paul Manafort, had held secret talks with Julian Assange at the Ecuadorean embassy. Discredited by the former Ecuadorean consul Fidel Narvaez as ‘fake’ (and by those like myself who were subjected to the security screening at the embassy), the story was typical of the decade-long smear campaign against Assange.

‘The campaign was one of the lowest points in British journalism. While collecting the kudos, circulation, profit and book and Hollywood deals for Assange’s work, the Guardian played a pivotal role. Although Mark Curtis touches on the latter years, young journalists need to know the whole disgraceful saga and its significance in crushing those who challenge power from outside the liberal fence and refuse to join the “club”.

‘The principal Guardian ringmaster was Alan Rusbridger, who was editor in chief for 20 years. (Rusbridger also oversaw the Observer, the Guardian’s sister paper, which during the build-up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 ran a rabid pro-war campaign that included fabrications about WMD for which its reporter, David Rose, later personally apologised – unlike his editors).

‘Rusbridger has lately re-invented himself as a media moralist. “Only those with the highest professional and ethical standards,” he wrote in 2019, “will rise above the oceans of mediocrity and malignity and survive.” While Rusbridger rises above the oceans to promote his new book on the ethics of “proper news”, Julian Assange, the truth telling journalist betrayed by the Guardian, remains in solitary confinement in Belmarsh prison.

‘Much of Freedman’s anthology is the work of media academics, whose takeover of the training of journalists is relatively recent – well, it’s within my own career. Some have done fine work, including Freedman himself. But the question begs: how have they and their colleagues changed the media for the better when so much of it has become an echo chamber of rapacious, mendacious power? The craft of journalism deserves better.’ (Email to Media Lens, 9 March 2021)


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"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown


Edited by wolf8312 (10/29/21 07:44 AM)

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