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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27491536 - 10/03/21 09:52 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

There's a reason unions everywhere fight for the right to organize: being forced underground makes it harder to organize effectively.

Do you honestly believe ridicule might be worse than criminalization, or are you just being needlessly contrarian?

Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/03/21 10:13 PM)

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: China [Re: Metoo]
    #27491628 - 10/04/21 12:23 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

China exists as a standard for oppression, so as long as it's not as bad as what they're doing, it'll pass as acceptable anywhere else in the world, lol.

China being a 10/10, for example, makes 6.5-7.5/10 everywhere else seem acceptable by comparison.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: China [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27491688 - 10/04/21 02:20 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Following, will return later.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #27491935 - 10/04/21 08:57 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
China exists as a standard for oppression, so as long as it's not as bad as what they're doing, it'll pass as acceptable anywhere else in the world, lol.

China being a 10/10, for example, makes 6.5-7.5/10 everywhere else seem acceptable by comparison.




The Gulf monarchies are more oppressive. But we don’t hear about their oppression every single day, so in a roundabout way, yes, China has been made the standard for oppression.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27491969 - 10/04/21 09:23 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
There's a reason unions everywhere fight for the right to organize: being forced underground makes it harder to organize effectively.

Do you honestly believe ridicule might be worse than criminalization, or are you just being needlessly contrarian?




Unions are not explicitly anti-state.

I think I have been pretty clear in what I mean. If your point is to organize and complain, then ridicule is obviously much better than criminalization. Because complaining accomplishes nothing. If your goals are to organize and then actually try to accomplish an anarchist society, then I do not believe that ridicule is automatically preferable to criminalization. Mostly because being ridiculed means that nobody takes you seriously enough to consider you a legitimate threat.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27492116 - 10/04/21 11:00 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

"Mostly because being ridiculed means that nobody takes you seriously enough to consider you a legitimate threat."

Is it 'ridiculed because you're not a legitimate threat' or 'not a legitimate threat because you're ridiculed'. If it's the former, then ridicule isn't the cause - it's an effect of not being considered a threat, and I can change that. If it's the latter, I don't see why ridicule would necessarily cause something to not be a threat - and it's entirely conceivable that ridicule could instead cause a legitimate threat to be underestimated.

Ridicule doesn't prevent me from openly organizing with like-minded individuals. Criminalization does.

Ridicule doesn't prevent me from educating the misinformed about anarchism. Criminalization does.

Ridicule doesn't require me to hide being an anarchist. Criminalization does.

It's not like we don't have real examples of this type of political criminalization in North America and Europe - less than a century ago, political activists still faced outright criminalization. For example, Gitlow v. New York effectively criminalized all anarchist speech, and it wasn't until nearly half a century later that the Brandenburg v. Ohio decision cast-doubt on the previous one. The US immigration acts of the first half of the 20th century specifically targeted (a very loose definition of) anarchists. People fought against these repressive policies for a reason - being forced underground makes effective organizing more difficult.

To relate things back to the four cardinal principles of the Chinese state (a specific example where I consider the implementation of authoritarian policy to significantly deviate from what we experience living under liberal democracies), imagine a United States that has written 'uphold the constitution, the people's democratic union, the leadership of the POTUS, and Capitalism' into a law that supersedes civil rights. It might become more difficult to protest in general, but the effect on anarchism, and other anti-state / anti-capitalist political movements, would be much more severe.

Can you provide any examples where ridicule has effectively repressed a political ideology?

Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/04/21 12:44 PM)

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #27492794 - 10/04/21 08:13 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Can you provide any examples where ridicule has effectively repressed a political ideology?




Anarchism.

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Offlinechristopera
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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27492825 - 10/04/21 08:28 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)



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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27492833 - 10/04/21 08:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

How?

Sure, there's a lot of jokes about living in your moms basement or whatever - but that hasn't actually repressed the ideology.

Ignore the internet memes and check out what the folks in Washington DC think:

Quote:

Examining Extremism: U.S. Militant Anarchists

August 5, 2021

While there is a long and violent history of anarchism in the United States, the threat that anarchists pose has evolved. Though anarchists remain a persistent problem in the United States, they pose a low-level threat—both in terms of lethality and rate of attacks—in comparison to other extremist movements.

Anarchism is a persistent threat that will challenge domestic security in the United States. The end goal of anarchists—the eventual downfall of the U.S. government—is inherently at odds with the United States. Furthermore, the use of social media allows anarchists to remain anonymous yet connected, thwarting law enforcement efforts to prevent militant anarchists from organizing. For example, on July 25, 2021, anarchists organized rallies in more than 20 cities with the use of the hashtag #J25 on Twitter.

Anarchists, however, present a low threat to the United States in comparison to other extremist movements, such as white supremacists. Anarchist attacks have a very low rate of lethality, and only two fatalities resulted from the 30 attacks conducted since 1994. This is likely because militant anarchists in the United States attack property and infrastructure (92 percent of attacks and plots since 1994) more often than private individuals (6 percent).



https://www.csis.org/blogs/examining-extremism/examining-extremism-us-militant-anarchists


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27492867 - 10/04/21 08:42 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

If I'm being completely honest, it looks like the folks in DC don't take you very seriously either.

The Chinese, on the other hand, seem to.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27492877 - 10/04/21 08:51 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Which brings us back to my initial point:

"Imo a far bigger risk is that governments around the world will adopt the Chinese brand of authoritarianism if it proves more successful in repressing social dissent."


Initially you stated, "if there is a distinction to be made [between US and Chinese authoritarianism], then the distinction is so minuscule that it is irrelevant, in my mind." so I'm glad to see you've finally come to agree that there is a noticeable difference.


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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #27492928 - 10/04/21 09:27 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Again. If you're talking about personal risk, then I completely agree.

If you're talking about risk to the anarchist movement? Then the distinction is so minuscule that it is irrelevant, in my mind.

Yes, it would suck to be in a Chinese jail. But it's not like you're accomplishing much in the West outside of jail, is it?

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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27493473 - 10/05/21 11:26 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

That depends on if you define "accomplishment" as global mass revolution or living on your own terms as an individual/community. I'm not trying to force everyone to become an anarchist - I'm satisfied with the state not forcing me to stop being an anarchist.

Besides, you don't think that the micro of 'personal risk' ties into the macro of 'risk to a movement'?

As I've already stated, anarchist writing and organizing from within mainland China is incredibly scarce. Both Taiwan and Hong Kong, with a fraction of the population of mainland China, produce much much more. If not a difference in the authoritarian approach of the Chinese state, what do you think could be causing this difference?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27493493 - 10/05/21 11:45 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

The CIA.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27493521 - 10/05/21 12:09 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

The CIA is responsible for the dearth of anarchists in mainland China? I don't see why.

Of course, you're probably suggesting that the CIA is the source of anarchists in Taiwan and Hong Kong - but this population of anarchists is proportional to anarchist populations around the globe. The population in mainland China is the aberration here.

I reject the patronizing (and all to common) suggestion that people existing outside of US hegemony don't have personal agency - that they are just tools of US imperialism. Anarchism in north-east Asia has roots that extends deeper than the advent of cold war politics. It wasn't created in response to the US state - it disappeared in response to the Chinese state.

Do you have any hard evidence connecting anarchists in north-east Asia to the CIA, or just repeating your own flavour of propaganda here?

No Badjacketing: The State Wants to Kill Us; Let’s Not Cooperate


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/06/21 02:10 PM)

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27493736 - 10/05/21 03:51 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
That depends on if you define "accomplishment" as global mass revolution or living on your own terms as an individual/community. I'm not trying to force everyone to become an anarchist - I'm satisfied with the state not forcing me to stop being an anarchist.




This is a bit like saying that me and my cat live by communist principles. Strictly speaking, we do. From me according to my ability (to pay rent) and to me according to my needs (for a fuzzy alarm clock). You could even argue that every (healthy) family in the world lives by communist principles, in the strictest definition.

Unfortunately, this is one of those moments where you're so technically correct that your statement is meaningless. I don't think there is a single government in the world that is enforcing familial capitalism, for example. The cops aren't going to bust down my door because I fail to charge my cat rent.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Besides, you don't think that the micro of 'personal risk' ties into the macro of 'risk to a movement'?




No, unless your "movement" consists of exactly one person. In which case, I wouldn't call it a "movement".


Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
As I've already stated, anarchist writing and organizing from within mainland China is incredibly scarce. Both Taiwan and Hong Kong, with a fraction of the population of mainland China, produce much much more. If not a difference in the authoritarian approach of the Chinese state, what do you think could be causing this difference?




It is absolutely Chinese censorship that is causing this difference. That part is not being disputed. The question is, which method of repression is more effective at repressing an anarchist movement?

I mean, if your movement consists of you, singular, then...yeah, that really does kind of simplify things, doesn't it? Of course you'd be more worried about an authoritarian system. Of course nobody in the west would be taking you seriously. There would be no movement!

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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: China [Re: Kryptos]
    #27497839 - 10/08/21 07:57 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I've followed China for the past decade or so. I even took Mandarin in college (though my motivation was to help North Korean defectors in China). One of the most heartbreaking videos I've seen detailing this was from Laowhy86 (1). They've been posting family photos and trying to explain what's happening through emojis. It's fucked. At the same time, it's not really new either. I mean, the surveillance is new but China was committing genocide long before Xinjiang. The genocide of Falun Gong has been fairly well-documented. Tursunay Ziyawudun describes having electric batons forced inside of her in the Xinjiang concentration camps (2). This is exactly what has been documented with Falun Gong as well (3). That's not to take away from what's happening in Xinjiang, only to highlight the disheartening reality that the rest of the world didn't act then and likely won't now.

If you want to see how deep and dystopian the CCP has become, look no further than the thousands of videos from Xinjiang locals denying the West's allegations. Weirdly, they all seem fixated on Mike Pompeo, almost as if someone told all of them to mention Mike Pompeo (4),(5),(6),(7). I definitely suggest checking out the ADV Podcasts (and their personal channels.) They're super informative.



(1) The Coded Messages Coming Out of Xinjiang


(2) Tursunay Ziyawudun explaining things that happened to her in Xinjiang


(3) Graphic images showing the abuse of Falun Gong practitioners from electric batons. The methods have not much changed over the decades.

(4) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(5) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(6) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(7) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


--------------------

Take a look at my journal

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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: China [Re: Darwin23]
    #27498247 - 10/09/21 06:59 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Darwin23 said:
I've followed China for the past decade or so. I even took Mandarin in college (though my motivation was to help North Korean defectors in China). One of the most heartbreaking videos I've seen detailing this was from Laowhy86 (1). They've been posting family photos and trying to explain what's happening through emojis. It's fucked. At the same time, it's not really new either. I mean, the surveillance is new but China was committing genocide long before Xinjiang. The genocide of Falun Gong has been fairly well-documented. Tursunay Ziyawudun describes having electric batons forced inside of her in the Xinjiang concentration camps (2). This is exactly what has been documented with Falun Gong as well (3). That's not to take away from what's happening in Xinjiang, only to highlight the disheartening reality that the rest of the world didn't act then and likely won't now.

If you want to see how deep and dystopian the CCP has become, look no further than the thousands of videos from Xinjiang locals denying the West's allegations. Weirdly, they all seem fixated on Mike Pompeo, almost as if someone told all of them to mention Mike Pompeo (4),(5),(6),(7). I definitely suggest checking out the ADV Podcasts (and their personal channels.) They're super informative.



(1) The Coded Messages Coming Out of Xinjiang


(2) Tursunay Ziyawudun explaining things that happened to her in Xinjiang


(3) Graphic images showing the abuse of Falun Gong practitioners from electric batons. The methods have not much changed over the decades.

(4) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(5) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(6) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP


(7) Disturbing scripted defenses of CCP





The problem is posts like yours purport to be hard evidence when really all you have is a narrative.

With a couple of photos and a few captions, and a bunch of 'eyewitnessess' one can concoct pretty much any story one likes, hell you are even using the testimony of people saying they are not being persecuted as sinister evidence that in fact, they are! Guilty either way...

Do we not have to ask ourselves therefore before rushing to judgement, if the other side controlling the media disseminating these narratives has any motivation for doing so, and as importantly, are there any historical precedents of them having concocted false testimony/evidence (Hint: most definitely!) in the past or else fermenting instability by covertly supporting/funding opposition groups within a target country?

Torture is being committed all over the world many of the offenders being US allies (and the US itself assuming they are still using enhanced interrogation/torture techniques) and we never hear or care about this, do we?

So is it not telling we are hearing (actually being bombarded with) about these atrocities in this specific case of China (enemy/rival no 1 of the US) and does it not prove there is a reason for this that has nothing to do with ethics?

It is after all rich giving what our western nations have done in the Muslim world during the last twenty years that westerners should be getting up on their soapboxes now and protesting about Muslim rights with seemingly no sense of self-awareness or shame whatsoever! Oh, that was just George Bush, he's gone now...

Do you honestly think the US government is bombarding its public with these horror stories because it actually cares about these people, that they honestly give two shits about the people of Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Xin Jiang (or Muslims?) or is this play not more likely to be about harming Chinas reputation and economy and attempting to make it into a global pariah? Is that not the more rational explanation?

It's sad that we live in a world with a government and media that is so utterly discredited that we can no longer believe anything they tell us, or even if we do, think of them as contemptible hypocrites, but with every fibre of my being, I believe one would be brainwashed to trust them on anything much less concerning any foreign nation that the US has designated the bad guy.

I mean talk about doomed to repeat it!

Highly recommend this guys content:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwGpHa6rMLjSSCBlckm5khw


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"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown


Edited by wolf8312 (10/09/21 07:07 AM)

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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: China [Re: wolf8312]
    #27499268 - 10/10/21 07:55 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

China is about to run shit around the world an America dosent have what it takes to stop them.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27499802 - 10/10/21 04:13 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Last time someone threatened US hegemony we threatened the world with nuclear holocaust. I don’t see why this time will be any different.


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