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Stranger Registered: 10/13/18 Posts: 1,524 Last seen: 2 months, 7 days |
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Greetings everyone. This post contains my thoughts on the direction China is taking, along with some chilling details about the level of control it exerts over its own citizens. Hopefully, this will lead to a reasoned discussion with other forum users sharing my interests. In particular I would like to invite @Falcon91Wolvrn03 whose views I do not always share but always respect. For clarity and structure, please post some developed ideas rather than one-liners. Two disclosures first. As some here know, I grew up in a Soviet bloc country at the tail end of the oppressive phase of communism, which admittedly shaped my views on life in general. Also, I do not want to turn this thread into a proxy discussion of current US politics but, for what it is worth, I am impressed with Biden's AUCUS brainchild. This is something Trump would never have been able to accomplish.
What started my recent round of research were the muffled noises from the human rights activists about the plight of Uyghurs. We have all heard that China handles the province of Xinjiang with an iron grip but I was not aware of what was actually happening on the ground. The sources I have relied on are generally on the human rights side which smacks of activism - it should soon become clear why so few first hand witness reports exist in the media. Uyghurs are a Turkic ethnic group of 12-13 million recognised as native to Xinjiang. In late 1990s some started violent resistance against the Han Chinese which took the form of civil disobedience, riots and terror attacks. When I learnt that in 2017 China "clamped down" on Uyghurs I thought that meant more armed patrols, surveillance, detentions (aimed to identify and tame the radicals) but this is only a small part of what happened. First CCP sent Han Chinese intelligence officers to live with Uyghur families at their homes - masquerading as social workers. This is how China built a full database of the Uyghur population, including the blood and social ties between households. This has mapped all physical interactions, phone and email traffic, attendance at mosques, level of religious commitment at homes etc among the Uyghurs - both in Xinjiang and abroad. CCP then developed a big data algorithm to score the deduced level of disloyalty for every Uyghur alive. What followed was the construction of the massive network of internment camps which at present can (and apparently do) house up to one million people, sent there based on that rating. Internment camp does not sound so bad, right? Well, at the lower end one can expect forced exposure to political propaganda, hours of mindless repetitions of the CCP slogans, praising Xi Jinping etc. A higher disloyalty score will mean a tougher regime - for example having to sit on the bed for 16 hours a day without any movement under constant CCTV surveillance. The preferred method of torture is tiger chair - a contraption which keeps one immobilised in contorted body position for any length of time deemed necessary. I will spare you the gore but there are reports of people who had to sit on their own beds staring at the wall in front while others screamed in agony for hours after being tiger-chaired in the same cell. The relatives of the Uyghurs living abroad are automatically sent to camps not for what they do but simply because having any friends or family abroad will bump one's score above the limit. It is an administrative process - no other proof of their personal disloyalty to CCP is needed. There is obviously no judicial oversight or right to appeal, people just disappear for months or years. But what about those who manage to dodge the camps? Well, their daily life is not what you might be used to. The face recognition cameras cover all public areas of large cities, giving the CCP minders a real time view of the moves of every Uyghur. There are police checkpoints every few hundred meters where one has to surrender one's phone for a scan. Turning one's phone off may result in being called to the police station to explain (all interrogations are conducted in tiger chairs). Having an end-to-end encrypted app like WhatsApp or Telegraph on one's phone is an instant disloyalty score bump. If both parents are at camps the children are re-settled with Han families. If only the male is missing, a live-in Han surrogate husband is assigned to the woman - you get the picture. So I thought that the Han Chinese population in general must be appalled at what is going on in Xinjiang but this is not the case because they have no idea. Did you pick up this piece of news the other day that CCP restricted the online gaming time for children? I could not work out how they would enforce it but it is actually quite simple. All internet access in China is controlled and censored in real time. All players have to register under their real names - no anonymous gaming. But what about getting a burner phone just for gaming you might ask? Well, there are no burner phones in China - all vendors are required to provide to CCP the face picture of the person buying a phone. One of the Black Mirror episodes showed this future society where all citizens are constantly rated by others on the quality of their social interactions. Except this is not a future - similar Social Credit system is live and operational in some parts of China. Your score may suffer if you for example jaywalk or appear in public inappropriately dressed. This particular system does not cover all of China and there are other versions which target potential dissidents. If you get on the radar of the secret police you will suffer a series of progressive restrictions on what you are allowed to do. You will lose your passport. You may not be able to travel by air or bullet trains. You may get de-prioritised in all dealings with the administration. You may have to report to the local police station with your phone every day. You may be ordered to live in a rural area. For an avid reader of Orwell a society where the government surveillance and control are so comprehensive and relentlessly effective is a scary proposition. CCP can at any time change the algorithm and start offering rating bumps for reporting disloyalty to CCP in one's social circle or say picketing the US embassy. But I have to be fair - much of what Social Credit achieves has popular support in China (no-one wants to see people in pyjamas on the street). The opportunist crime in heavily monitored cities has dropped to zero - no one will touch a wallet left on a bus seat because of the surveillance cameras. Also, it should not be overlooked that CCP has delivered phenomenal growth in the living standards in China since Deng so they must be doing something right. If this thread takes off I will offer my thoughts on Chinese expansionism - both the soft version known as Belt and Road Initiative and the full on military muscle display - but in the meantime please feel free to post your comments. Edited by Metoo (09/30/21 02:50 AM)
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,365 Last seen: 15 hours, 6 minutes |
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Quote: ![]() -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Club 27 Registered: 12/18/12 Posts: 12,455 Loc: attending Snake Church Last seen: 7 hours, 35 minutes |
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Welcome back. I want to commend you on a couple points you made previously. You thought China would make a move on Taiwan. I replied that the U.S. would draw a line in the sand there. Given recent events I'm leaning toward your view.
On an unrelated note you cautioned us on the inherent drawbacks in political polling. I figured the pollsters wouldn't screw it up twice in a row. They were right about the Presidential election, but in the Dem primary they had me convinced Bernie was about to make his move and completely change the political landscape. While the Dem establishment did work against Bernie when he became a threat, the Bernie Bros just quit voting after California and the race wasn't close. -------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Stranger Registered: 10/13/18 Posts: 1,524 Last seen: 2 months, 7 days |
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Good to be back :-)
Yes, it gets more scary the closer you look. Just waiting to see how this thread settles but was planning to write more about Taiwan, Paracels, Doklan, Tawang etc later. Since you are the first to offer a meaningful comment let me ask - is there anything in the OP that you did not hear about before? I had had a vague understanding of the Uyghur drama but the details chilled me.
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Psssssst! Registered: 09/13/20 Posts: 1,136 |
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Thanks for starting this thread Metoo. I share a lot of your views/concerns.
Are you going to to also comment on the new silk road, China establishing huge farms in Kasachstan or their social credit system? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki I know I wouldn't want to live in a world governed by Chinese values. -------------------- Hokus Pokus Fidibus!
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Stranger Registered: 10/13/18 Posts: 1,524 Last seen: 2 months, 7 days |
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Welcome and thank you for the kind words. The new silk road runs through Xinjian but I have not done any reading on Kazakhstan. Please feel free to share what you know - it will be much appreciated.
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,365 Last seen: 15 hours, 6 minutes |
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Quote: You're commending him for predicting that China would move on Taiwan when they haven't moved on Taiwan because you are leaning towards thinking that they might possibly make a move on Taiwan sometime in the future? I would also like to commend this most learned scholar and his undeniable knowledge of China and Chinese affairs. He may not provide any actual evidence to back up his declarative statements (but that tiger torture chair sounds simply beastly) and yes his post would undoubtedly be dismissed as conspiracy theory and moved to the CT forum for lack of evidence were he not peddling officially sanctioned MSM propaganda, but I for one heartily look forward to hearing the gentleman's views on Kazakhstan in future. And here's a video about the good guys who control that very same propaganda from where the right honourable OP forms his opinions to make these highly commendable posts which are absolutely not aimed at increasing general animosity towards the very people he cares so very deeply about... -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Chilldog Extraordinaire Registered: 11/11/09 Posts: 34,046 Loc: 'Merica Last seen: 2 hours, 5 minutes |
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As Americans we love projecting our own foreign policy onto our ‘enemies.’ So of course we look at a Chinese invasion of Taiwan as a when and not an if. Same goes for Iran and nuclear weapons, or Cuba and ??? something, or NK nuking Seoul.
That said, in the incredibly unlikely event that China does make some military move in Taiwan, the US isn’t risking the already shaky global trade paradigm to save Taiwan. It ain’t happenin. --------------------
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Stranger Registered: 10/13/17 Posts: 14,471 Last seen: 1 hour, 19 minutes |
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Taiwan will get taken if China wants to. They are already flooding Taiwan with Chinese nationals and it will only be a matter of time until Taiwan decided to be a part of China anyways.
If we were truly worried we’d be building out microchip production facilities domestically. That’s not happening. Otherwise Taiwan isn’t that valuable. -------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Stranger Registered: 12/04/15 Posts: 1,580 Last seen: 1 year, 9 months |
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I support china an there socialism I think this something America should adopt especially since china is the world super power now an its working out very well for them. If America is smart they will stay out of chinas way unless they want there asses handed to them on a platter.
Idk why people are complaining about china when American has done way more atrocity's than china could ever dream of doing an America is whipping immigrants an trapping them for slavery as we speak.
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Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 6 hours, 35 minutes |
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Quote: There's socialism for the rich in the US and don't forget that your 'capitalist' heroes are best friends and business partners with the big bad 'communist' Chinese. Get over the China vs US mentality that's spewed out by the MSM, the very rich in this nation won't tell you the truth about the relationship. Your enemy isn't China, it's your 'capitalistic' friends in the US.
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Stranger Registered: 10/13/18 Posts: 1,524 Last seen: 2 months, 7 days |
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Quote: Thanks for popping by. Agreed, it is even possible that the Taiwanese are wanting to join PRC right now. But they may have to be assisted by PLA to overthrow their oppressive leaders. Like Tibetans in 1960s.
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,848 Last seen: 14 minutes, 36 seconds |
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Quote: TSMC, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation, is currently building a large microchip plant in Arizona. Should be coming online sometime in 2023-2024. As for OP: What do you propose? Yes, China is doing extremely shitty things to minorities within their borders. So is basically every other country in the world. That's just something that humans do: shit on minorities. They're minorities, they make great targets for aimed poops. I would argue the US is even worse for this. China has internment camps, and so do we. Not only that, but we have more prisoners than China does. Not on a per capita basis, but in absolute numbers. Something like 0.7% of the US population is currently sitting in jail. And they disproportionately happen to be, minorities. When you talk about the "Tiger Chair", that is a potentially racially motivated name what is known as a stress position. This is commonly used when you want to torture someone without actually pulling teeth or fingernails. A classic example of a stress position would be the wall sit exercise. Again, this is used pretty commonly around the world. I guess we would call it an "enhanced interrogation technique" here in the US. Next, the Orwellian social credit system/camera combo that everyone likes to pick on. This is really a question of marketing. Everyone in the US accepts a credit score system which is controlled by three private corporations that use their own secret proprietary formulas to assign a score to every person in the US, which dictates your economic future. Your credit score determines where you can live, what you can buy, and how much you will pay for it. I will concede that we don't yet track "anti-social behavior", but that's not because of our freedom, that's just because of societal priorities and the overdeveloped prison system. If you're the kind of criminal that doesn't go to prison in the US, then your behavior doesn't matter, as long as your money is good. And you alluded to this same behavior among the Chinese: Most people are cool with it because minor nuisance crimes have dropped to nearly zero. Finally, the extensive camera presence. I think this is actually quite misleading. China may have a bunch of government cameras, sure, but to me this is simply because they cut out the middleman. Cameras are routinely marketed as a safety precaution in the US. I actually once had a landlord that provided me with a free security system that included a camera in my living room, because it was a "bad neighborhood". I taped over the camera, obviously, but still had to deal with the bullshit security system. Here, we pay for the privilege of putting cameras everywhere. Or other surveillance devices. Most of my neighbors have those ring doorbell cameras now. I'm willing to bet that the majority of them also have an Alexa or three in their houses. And Amazon is more than happy to sell those videos or transcripts of whatever that Alexa overhears to the US government. Heck, there's a company called Clearview AI, run by an openly pro-police state right wing nutjob who is notoriously camera shy, because the entire point of his company is to scrape facial data from cameras to track people, and his biggest customer in the US police force. I don't see much of a difference between the actions taken by China and the actions taken by other governments across the world, notably the US. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fucked up regardless of the country, but there is a certain...glass houses type aspect to focusing on one over the other. And yes, China is growing rapidly and improving the standards of living for its citizens, while the US is stagnating and in need of a scapegoat. EDIT: I will also add, something I didn't address: the gaming ban. Again, the major difference is how you are tracked. In China, maybe you need to submit your real name and photo to get a account, but in the rest of the world, every service tracks you anyway. Your phone has a unique device ID, which is harvested by literally every corporation when you use their services. Your computer's hardware also has unique device IDs, the combination of which is harvested by basically every website you visit. Your browser settings, same thing. Websites you visit, the time you spend on each website, even individual idiosyncrasies, like your typing cadence, your habitual mouse movements, all of that is tracked and matched to a profile of you. Primarily, it is done for advertising purposes. There is great value in customized ads. It can also be used to track you. Chances are, google, facebook, amazon, etc. all have profiles on you, even if you don't use them. Facebook knows you exist because even if you've never gone on facebook, your friends have. Google knows you exist because of google.com. Amazon knows you exist because the most profitable part of amazon is their server farms, which they rent out to everyone. Amazon actually makes very little money by selling you cheap Chinese crap. The moneymaker is AWS. It is literally impossible to exist in the modern world without someone having a detailed profile of you. Chances are, most major corporations literally know you better than you know yourself. And that information is freely sold to any government or person that offers the right price. It's just that in China, all of this is (a) more blatant and (b) directly done by the government. Edited by Kryptos (10/01/21 09:33 PM)
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בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 3 hours, 21 minutes |
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Quote: The most obvious difference, imo, is that the Chinese state's brand of authoritarian rule is much more 'in your face' than what we are used to from liberal democracies. In the USA, authoritarian rule is still hidden behind a thin veneer of freedom and democracy - whereas in China, authoritarian rule is openly dressed up in a paternalistic attitude. -In China, the CCP responsibly censors disruptive information. -In the USA, you have the freedom to choose any media you wish. *All available media is owned by the billionaire class, and solely represents their interests. Still, I'm not really concerned about the Chinese state posing any direct military threat to my life in Canada. A far bigger risk is that governments around the world will adopt the Chinese brand of authoritarianism if it proves more successful in repressing social dissent - especially as we arrive in a era of increasing instability caused by climate change. Gord Hill of the Kwakwaka’wakw nation may have it about right: The convergence of war, economic decline and ecological crisis will lead to greater overall social conflict within the imperialist nations in the years to come. It is this growing conflict that will create changes in the present social conditions [with] greater opportunities for organised resistance. The rulers are well aware of this, and it is for this reason that state repression is now being established as a primary means of social control (i.e greatly expanded police-military forces, new terror laws etc)... We are now in a period that can be described as the ‘calm before the storm’ - Colonization and Decolonization: A manual for Indigenous liberation in the 21st century
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,848 Last seen: 14 minutes, 36 seconds |
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Dang, you beat my edit. Or maybe my edit slightly beat your post. Either way, yes.
Quote: I don't see this in a future tense, I see this in a present tense. I already see Chinese brand authoritarianism in the world around me, except it is exerted with a that thin veneer. You may argue that this is the distinction, but I don't see it as such. If there is a distinction to be made, then the distinction is so minuscule that it is irrelevant, in my mind. The authoritarianism is the same, but it is culturally tailored. Chinese culture does, and has historically, valued the group over the individual. The family unit, the state, etc. And so authoritarianism in China is cloaked in that same language of duty to the state. US culture is and always has been very focused on individual choice and freedom, and so US authoritarianism is presented as a meaningless choice between two identical options. Simply put: it is culturally appropriate for the Chinese to say "bend over and accept your dildo for the glory of the state!", and for the US to say "would monsieur prefer the blue dildo or the red dildo, or shall I decide on monsieur's behalf?" Either way, you're taking a dildo up the ass whether you like it or not. That part is not up for debate. EDIT: This mismatch in culture actually furthers the depth of the dildo, because it allows the Chinese to take umbrage at the US and vice versa. The end result, of course, is that each begins to prefer their own style of dildo, and helps it further in as a method of distinguishing themselves from the other's style of dildo (which they vehemently oppose). Therefore, I don't think there is any need to worry about "Chinese brand" authoritarianism outside of China. Authoritarianism is authoritarianism, and like all authoritarianism, having an "other" to demonize only makes it stronger. Edited by Kryptos (10/01/21 10:10 PM)
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Club 27 Registered: 12/18/12 Posts: 12,455 Loc: attending Snake Church Last seen: 7 hours, 35 minutes |
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It's funny you should mention that. Last week at Amazon I sorted a big box of dildos from China. We have this incredibly crude statistical performance rating system, and in general I will grab a box off the conveyor it I see Chinese letters.
If Lenin or Marx were alive today they might say the communists will sell you the dildo to screw yourself with. I had written a long post about China but given current intoxication level thought it best to delete. But I will say it's very hard to interpret the news we get about China. -------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 3 hours, 21 minutes |
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Quote: I think, from the perspective of the average citizen of a nation-state, you are absolutely correct. Most people will go through their lives without coming into direct conflict with their government, regardless of whether they live in China, the USA, or elsewhere. My perspective is a little bit skewed because of my personal politics. Anarchism is a political minority that, historically and currently, experiences significant repression under both capitalist and communist states - for what should be obvious reasons. I actively and openly organize against the state where I live - and in this position, even a thin veneer of civil rights is better than nothing. It might be mostly performative - and it might not completely prevent state repression - but it certainly constrains the state to acting within certain limits in order to uphold that performance. That doesn't mean new forms of state repression, intended to circumvent the problem of civil rights, haven't been introduced. Around the turn of the 21st century, liberal democracies began to adopt anti-terrorism legislation - concurrently, a pattern of using these new laws to cast wide-nets of criminal conspiracies against political activists began to emerge. I won't got into all the details, but suffice to say that charges of terrorist conspiracies haven't been very effective at suppressing anarchist activities. If you're interested in a more in-depth look at the last couple decades, I would recommend the following: - The Age of Conspiracy Charges - On Repression Patterns in Europe None of this is likely to worry the average person, but the threat of state repression is an ever present reality if you are actively organizing against the state. Similarly, looking to the forms that state repression takes in different countries, and particularly looking to see which models are most effective, can give us a heads up before they are imported and used against us. With that in mind, I can say that in my experience anarchist organizing from within China is incredibly scarce, and I don't think this can be chalked down to a difference in language or culture. Internationalism is an inseparable aspect of anarchism - there is a very cohesive international network of anarchist media, and there is an ever-present effort to translate anarchist writing into multiple languages. Because of this, anarchist writings from Taiwan and Hong Kong are common, but writings from the Chinese mainland are still uncommon and usually written through a lens of Mao-Lenin-Marxism. The following give a brief view of the type of activist writing that comes out of mainland China: - From analysis to action: Voices from left media in mainland China - Worker organising under the pandemic: reflections from China So we have to ask ourselves, 'what makes state repression in China more effective?' because, undoubtedly, our own governments are asking that same question internally. The difference, imo, is found in the more blatant authoritarianism of the CCP. For example, the Chinese state technically has civil liberties, but it also has the four cardinal principles: upholding the socialist path, the people's democratic dictatorship, the leadership of the CCP, and Maoism-Leninism-Marxism. Similar to our own anti-terrorism laws, the four cardinal principles are considered to supersede civil rights - only in a much more blatant and less convoluted manner. This 'in-your-face' approach has been very effective at repressing anti-state political activity in China, from my perspective. I know that I would have to change my personal activities significantly in such an environment - whereas anti-terrorism laws haven't really had the same effect. Still, I don't think liberal democracies would have a very easy time importing this model right now - but I do believe climate change is going to make the future increasingly unstable - I also believe that, if faced with an existential crisis, even the most liberal democracy would adopt severe authoritarian tendencies as an act of self-preservation - and this is why I pay attention to the authoritarianism of the Chinese state.
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,848 Last seen: 14 minutes, 36 seconds |
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I think you're a little too optimistic about the lack of effect of state level repression in western societies.
China may be cracking down explicitly on anarchist organizing, making publication much more difficult. The US, on the other hand, simply ridicules the entire concept of anarchy to an extreme degree. Sure, you can organize and publish anarchist literature, but the common citizen has a knee-jerk reaction of "this is published by a criminal who is almost certainly violent". I think the US method of repression through ridicule might actually be more effective than the Chinese method of simple banning. The Chinese method is weak to natural human curiosity towards "forbidden knowledge". If one is able to take the first step and get some anarchist literature published, they will immediately be taken seriously by whoever gets their hands on it because of the "THEY don't want you to know"-type conspiracy effect. In the US, you can publish all you want, but if you want someone to take you seriously, you're going to have to build some sort of relationship with them for them to trust your opinions. Or I guess find someone that's disillusioned enough to just latch onto the first thing that comes along, but that's been pretty well monopolized by pro-authoritarian movements like MAGA/Qanon. Ultimately, the second method of conversion to your cause is much more effective on a long term timescale. It's how Christianity became a thing: consistent 3% annual growth rate starting from 20 or so dudes when Jesus died to millions of people at the highest reaches of Rome by the Council of Nicea. But, this assumes that you have a long term timescale. Which, as you point out, we do not. Due to Climate Change. 300 years from now, the majority of human population will almost certainly be dead. Humanity won't be extinct, but neither will we count world population by the billions.
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בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,487 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 3 hours, 21 minutes |
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I'm not being optimistic at all, I'm being an absolute realist - I'm speaking based on my personal and direct experience as an openly organizing anarchist in North America. Why would I benefit from downplaying the state repression I experience?
Is this just a hypothetical to you? Because I absolutely prefer being ridiculed to being outlawed. Do you honestly believe this "distinction is so minuscule that it is irrelevant"? Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/03/21 05:46 PM)
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,848 Last seen: 14 minutes, 36 seconds |
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Unless you have experienced both being ridiculed and being outlawed, I believe it is fair to characterize this as a hypothetical for both of us. Now I will admit I don't know your entire life, and you may have spent some time as an openly organizing anarchist in China, but I suspect that is not the case.
I will absolutely concede that it is much more personally preferable to be ridiculed than to be outlawed, because jail fucking sucks. However, if we are to judge the two in terms of organizing effectiveness, i.e. in actual outcomes, not personal comfort, I don't think that the difference is quite as clear. As a reference, I am using the burgeoning feminist movement in China, which started around the time of MeToo here in the states, and is currently going strong even though the Chinese government is doing their absolute best to arrest/censor their way out of the problem.
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