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Offlinekanemush
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"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone
    #27466660 - 09/13/21 10:20 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think this will get the most responses in this forum, but if the mods feel it should go into another part of the forum I am cool with that.

Let me start with rather you grow gourmets, medicinal, or actives this really applies  to all forms of cultivation. Like the quote in the topic says why do I/you always get dragged back into it lol. I think I am done then shit starts right back up every time.

What I find most fascinating about this is every time I feel I am out people and restaurants want my product. Soon as you grow it and call those people you can't find them anywhere lol. It is like there was a murder in the hood and everyone scattered these fools disappear. I think this is most fascinating if you got stock no one is around you got no stock and everyone is calling.

I sometime feels like mushrooms farmers are some of the most under appreciated people in the world. I don't care again if your doing actives, meds, or gourmets these things have something to give you. There are for sure real health benefits to mushrooms just big pharma can't copyright a mushroom. I mean look at it and I maybe be well under estimating the numbers but take each country on its own. How many mushrooms farmers really are out there like in the US? I mean really what less then 500 growers supply the whole country if even that many.

I want to hear your thoughts please I mean am I just being crazy, or does this happen to everyone that grows. I also know this may not be written very well, but I have bi-polar give me a break.

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OfflineHaywire
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: kanemush]
    #27467554 - 09/14/21 01:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

kanemush said:
There are for sure real health benefits to mushrooms just big pharma can't copyright a mushroom.




fungi can be copyrighted.
Spoppo and allerpo are two sporeless oyster strains that are copyrighted.
The problem is that it's difficult to enforce the copyright since mycelium can be easily copied from a fruiting body.
The protection of strains is under the UPOV system, same as used for plants.


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Offlinekanemush
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Haywire]
    #27467847 - 09/14/21 09:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Haywire said:
Quote:

kanemush said:
There are for sure real health benefits to mushrooms just big pharma can't copyright a mushroom.




fungi can be copyrighted.
Spoppo and allerpo are two sporeless oyster strains that are copyrighted.
The problem is that it's difficult to enforce the copyright since mycelium can be easily copied from a fruiting body.
The protection of strains is under the UPOV system, same as used for plants.





awesome I never knew this thanks for the information. Is this why some companies you buy gourmet kits from say you cannot sell them?

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Haywire]
    #27467887 - 09/14/21 10:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

It's not copyright. Natural living organisms can't be copyrighted (copywritten?), only human-made works can be.
It's CPV restrictions, which forbid commercialization of the cultivar within the EU for 25-30 years. It's the same type of bullshit that makes it so you can't make cheese following the exact provolone process and sell it as provolone unless you made it in a specific region in Italy.

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Offlinekanemush
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27468646 - 09/14/21 08:33 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

well ok sticking to my post how do you feel about how mushroom farmers are under appreciated?

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: kanemush]
    #27468684 - 09/14/21 09:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Well, mushrooms have a very limited shelf life and are very low in calories. Simply put, you're never going to be able to feed a population on mushrooms
As far as the psychoactive ones, mushrooms are always going to be less valued than, say, acid. The trip is shorter, it's less enjoyable (subjective, I know, but in general this is true), and nausea is a common side-effect.

Mushrooms occupy kind of a weird niche, and I don't see that changing. Antibiotics are probably the one exception, and Penicillium is not a mushroom.

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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27468690 - 09/14/21 09:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

InsultingLizard said:
Well, mushrooms have a very limited shelf life and are very low in calories. Simply put, you're never going to be able to feed a population on mushrooms
As far as the psychoactive ones, mushrooms are always going to be less valued than, say, acid. The trip is shorter, it's less enjoyable (subjective, I know, but in general this is true), and nausea is a common side-effect.

Mushrooms occupy kind of a weird niche, and I don't see that changing. Antibiotics are probably the one exception, and Penicillium is not a mushroom.




Idk if you could feed a population solely on fungi and mush but itd certainly be a huge boost


--------------------
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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Ashtray161]
    #27468695 - 09/14/21 09:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

If you could do it on waste or inedible matter and without spending so much energy it's no longer worth it, sure. The way we grow cubes for example would be wasteful, but obviously we're not trying to produce food.

What would be great would be a fungus that produced literally meaty fruits. As in, made of meat. That would be way more efficient than cattle farming.

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OfflineOra
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27468703 - 09/14/21 09:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

its just the area where you live. in asian countries they eat so much mushroom. americans just dont know how to incorporate it into their diet. and the fact that gourmet are so expensive here. i think at the farmers market theres a guy selling them for $9-12 a lb.

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Offlinekanemush
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Ora]
    #27468858 - 09/15/21 02:02 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

let me ask you out there oyster, lions mane and such gourmets I hear 10 per lb is pretty normal? Remember I am talking all levels of cultivation just not actives.

Yes if they legalized mushrooms like a lot of states have done marijuana the demand will never be that high there is something that scares people about the actives. I find it very interesting people will pop a tab of cid and pills in there mouth easily with noway to really know what else is in there. You pop a mushroom in there face they say cool and run away lol. I mean mush cult out there does a ego death scare people that much? The upset I can dig, but then again the same people will drink all night and bitch the next morning about how they feel and do it all over again.

I might just be thinking to much but this is the best site to talk about this stuff on.

Edited by kanemush (09/15/21 02:13 AM)

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: kanemush]
    #27468862 - 09/15/21 02:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You need to go to the hungry people. People buy food (especially gourmet mushrooms which might be considered 'exotic' here) based on their stomachs and their boredom. At a farmer's market people are in the right mindset to spend large amounts. I read about a gourmet farmer who almost felt bad about how much they could charge people at farmers markets, and yet they said even at those high prices people still thanked them for the chance to pay it. That's the kind of customer you want.

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Offlinekanemush
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #27468865 - 09/15/21 02:25 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:
You need to go to the hungry people. People buy food (especially gourmet mushrooms which might be considered 'exotic' here) based on their stomachs and their boredom. At a farmer's market people are in the right mindset to spend large amounts. I read about a gourmet farmer who almost felt bad about how much they could charge people at farmers markets, and yet they said even at those high prices people still thanked them for the chance to pay it. That's the kind of customer you want.





bravo great insight thank you lets keep this going I want to hear your thoughts.

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: kanemush]
    #27468914 - 09/15/21 04:07 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

kanemush said:


bravo great insight thank you lets keep this going I want to hear your thoughts.




Ha hard for me to tell if you're being sarcastic or not since I didn't think there was anything too great about my comment. If it's genuine, thanks. Most of the gourmet farmers I've heard of with success start off at small venues like farmer's markets. How else could they establish a reputation for their product if people can't have it regularly? And then starting off with small sales eventually word spreads and they can make deals with larger places (supermarkets, restaurants etc).

I do have two other suggestions. The first would be, if you can afford it give a free sample to all those people who asked you for mushrooms before. Give them a taste and get them thinking about it, if they truly love mushrooms it might ignite the craving in them and cause them to come back to you ready to pay. If they don't come back then it saves you having to ask them again since you did everything you could to try and get their business. It seems like part of your problem is an inconsistent supply, people can't be customers if they don't know whether or not you'll have any. Perhaps it'd be good to always have a few on hand, at least some dried, so that people can know what your mushrooms are like should they ask about them.

The second suggestion would be, I've seen a few gourmet sellers branch off into selling cultivation supplies. They usually sell pre-colonized fruiting bags so that people can grow their own mushrooms, they also sometimes sell sterilized bags without anything inoculated into it. Some people who don't want to bother with sterilization when growing their mushrooms might be interested in buying that. You could potentially sell those at a farmer's market as well. There's a subset of people who might want to grow mushrooms but do not have interest in learning the finer points.

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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: kanemush] * 1
    #27468982 - 09/15/21 06:41 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

kanemush said:
well ok sticking to my post how do you feel about how mushroom farmers are under appreciated?




It's sad but changing daily.
I was chased out of a Chinese vegan store when I offered them free oysters as testers.
Another store told me I was going to make everyone high, I just looked at them confused and said they are oyster mushrooms.

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Offlinekanemush
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #27468987 - 09/15/21 06:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:
Quote:

kanemush said:


bravo great insight thank you lets keep this going I want to hear your thoughts.




Ha hard for me to tell if you're being sarcastic or not since I didn't think there was anything too great about my comment. If it's genuine, thanks. Most of the gourmet farmers I've heard of with success start off at small venues like farmer's markets. How else could they establish a reputation for their product if people can't have it regularly? And then starting off with small sales eventually word spreads and they can make deals with larger places (supermarkets, restaurants etc).

I do have two other suggestions. The first would be, if you can afford it give a free sample to all those people who asked you for mushrooms before. Give them a taste and get them thinking about it, if they truly love mushrooms it might ignite the craving in them and cause them to come back to you ready to pay. If they don't come back then it saves you having to ask them again since you did everything you could to try and get their business. It seems like part of your problem is an inconsistent supply, people can't be customers if they don't know whether or not you'll have any. Perhaps it'd be good to always have a few on hand, at least some dried, so that people can know what your mushrooms are like should they ask about them.

The second suggestion would be, I've seen a few gourmet sellers branch off into selling cultivation supplies. They usually sell pre-colonized fruiting bags so that people can grow their own mushrooms, they also sometimes sell sterilized bags without anything inoculated into it. Some people who don't want to bother with sterilization when growing their mushrooms might be interested in buying that. You could potentially sell those at a farmer's market as well. There's a subset of people who might want to grow mushrooms but do not have interest in learning the finer points.




nope I was not being sarcastic I appreciate your feedback very much and thank you for the added comment. I want to know what people are doing so thought I would ask. I always hear farmers market that seems to be the most logical way to get into the local market. Word of mouth is proven to be more powerful sometimes then advertising dollars.

I like the idea of giving samples might as well if your going to try and push a product. I think you hit it on the nail somewhat I think most people have no access or never have thought to add mushrooms to dishes in the usa. Simple fact is most people have the basic options in usa portobello button mushrooms and stuff. I have never personally seen oysters or lion manes and such at grocery store especially here. Also I see a lot people just eat them straight from the store they don't even saute or try to mix them in there food. I think this gives a bad impression I mean unless you just like the taste of earth in your mouth :smile: you have to cook those babies.

I also know this through friends and several people I have talked to where there family came from Germany that they use to pick mushrooms all the time. It seems to be a common thing from what I hear for the German culture to pick mushrooms. Talking more with my friends and people in general several of there grandparents from Germany state they hate mushrooms because during the war that's about all they could find to eat, but they also don't get or like tattoos because of the camps. I know personally from my Grandma who was German origin also she use to pick mushrooms all the times when we where kids in the usa. Sad to says shes no longer with us so I was never able to ask her what kind are these and how do you know there safe. I know when I first tasted mushrooms I hated them to so unfortunately I missed out asking her more about them.




.

Edited by kanemush (09/15/21 06:58 AM)

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Offlinekanemush
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #27468989 - 09/15/21 06:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DERRAYLD said:
Quote:

kanemush said:
well ok sticking to my post how do you feel about how mushroom farmers are under appreciated?




It's sad but changing daily.
I was chased out of a Chinese vegan store when I offered them free oysters as testers.
Another store told me I was going to make everyone high, I just looked at them confused and said they are oyster mushrooms.




wow seriously?

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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: kanemush]
    #27469172 - 09/15/21 10:07 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

How many edible mushrooms do you think the average consumer can name off the top of their head?
How many are Agaricus?

Survival born phobias are waning as more is understood and disseminated.

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #27469207 - 09/15/21 10:36 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DERRAYLD said:
Quote:

kanemush said:
well ok sticking to my post how do you feel about how mushroom farmers are under appreciated?




It's sad but changing daily.
I was chased out of a Chinese vegan store when I offered them free oysters as testers.
Another store told me I was going to make everyone high, I just looked at them confused and said they are oyster mushrooms.



That's hilarious. Where are these growers going around offering free shrooms as if they were edible mushrooms? I want to meet them.
What's even more bizarre to me is that if I knew nothing about mushrooms and I suspected the person giving me one is being malicious, I'd think they're trying to poison me, not that they're giving me psychedelics.

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OfflineOra
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27469251 - 09/15/21 11:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Probably gave them flashbacks of a bad experience :lol:

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OfflineFailboat
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #27469281 - 09/15/21 11:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DERRAYLD said:
Quote:

kanemush said:
well ok sticking to my post how do you feel about how mushroom farmers are under appreciated?




It's sad but changing daily.
I was chased out of a Chinese vegan store when I offered them free oysters as testers.
Another store told me I was going to make everyone high, I just looked at them confused and said they are oyster mushrooms.



:canthelpbutlaugh:

Must be tough down yonder.

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:
You need to go to the hungry people. People buy food (especially gourmet mushrooms which might be considered 'exotic' here) based on their stomachs and their boredom. At a farmer's market people are in the right mindset to spend large amounts. I read about a gourmet farmer who almost felt bad about how much they could charge people at farmers markets, and yet they said even at those high prices people still thanked them for the chance to pay it. That's the kind of customer you want.



I concur.
Mushrooms are niche, sell to your niche. Farmers markets are full of people ready to lay down good cash for quality produce, for sure.

Actives are obviously niche, and equally so somewhat universal. Everyone could use the health, but not everyone is gonna buy it all the time. In a hypothetical legal market, depending on scheduling, the potential is there for pharmaceutical feedstock at the very least.

People grow poppies, people will grow mush. Some gets minimally processed and some is heavily modified and converted. Whether or not we get OTC or freedom of personal production is yet to be determined, but someone will definitely get to grow the medicine.
:2cents:

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Offlinekanemush
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470107 - 09/16/21 02:11 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

InsultingLizard said:
Quote:

DERRAYLD said:
Quote:

kanemush said:
well ok sticking to my post how do you feel about how mushroom farmers are under appreciated?




It's sad but changing daily.
I was chased out of a Chinese vegan store when I offered them free oysters as testers.
Another store told me I was going to make everyone high, I just looked at them confused and said they are oyster mushrooms.



That's hilarious. Where are these growers going around offering free shrooms as if they were edible mushrooms? I want to meet them.
What's even more bizarre to me is that if I knew nothing about mushrooms and I suspected the person giving me one is being malicious, I'd think they're trying to poison me, not that they're giving me psychedelics.





I here that a lot to I bring up mushrooms and people either always say this eww shit, your going to poison me, or your trying to give my a psychedelic. Are people really that dumb out of all mushrooms not many are even known to be active, but that is the first thing they think. Then I grab my oysters saute them up and there like damn that is good and they fall in love with them. That is the key I think is just getting someone to taste them then it is all over there hooked.

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OfflineHaywire
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470117 - 09/16/21 02:33 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

InsultingLizard said:
It's not copyright. Natural living organisms can't be copyrighted (copywritten?), only human-made works can be.
It's CPV restrictions, which forbid commercialization of the cultivar within the EU for 25-30 years. It's the same type of bullshit that makes it so you can't make cheese following the exact provolone process and sell it as provolone unless you made it in a specific region in Italy.




So if a company invests 10 years of research into breeding a sporeless strain they shouldn't be able to protect their investment?


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Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto


My grows :mushroom2: Outdoor patches

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Haywire]
    #27470196 - 09/16/21 05:41 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Haywire said:
So if a company invests 10 years of research into breeding a sporeless strain they shouldn't be able to protect their investment?



I'm personally opposed to all forms of intellectual property. Maybe I could make an exception for trademarks, since those are rarely abused by rights holders and they're more for the protection of the consumer.
So to answer your question, IMO yes, they shouldn't be able to protect their investment by legal means. I'm fine if they find some other way to do it. For example, by somehow making it impossible to clone the fruits.
The supposed motivation for copyright is to incentivize production of new works. I'm not convinced people would just stop making art if copyright didn't exist, but let's accept it for the sake of argument. Is the price of not having this sort of laws that no one would try to develop strains of mushrooms with novel properties? I find that a more than acceptable trade-off.

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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470276 - 09/16/21 07:37 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

that's exactly the reason why it's necessary.
if the investment can't be protected, nobody is going to invest.
if you spend a couple of millions on the development of a new strain and everyone is allowed to copy and sell it, why on earth would you take that risk?

in reality mushrooms are easy to copy. You'll be able to find sporeless strains from different vendors than sylvan and amycel. just ask around. that's why there are hardly any new strains coming to the market.


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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Haywire]
    #27470286 - 09/16/21 07:49 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Oh, no. God forbid we don't get any new gourmet mushroom strains. What would the world come to. :-|

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Offlinegone-pear-shaped
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470340 - 09/16/21 08:57 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Well you know oyster spores tend to make people sick? And that they sensitize so you'd become allergic to them (or have similar symptoms). I'm glad sporeless oysters are available.

But what about high temperature oysters with a slightly better shelf life? Or cool oyster species that can fruit well at higher temperatures. Do we need them? No, but they would be great, and would enable types of farming that aren't currently possible.

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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: gone-pear-shaped]
    #27470364 - 09/16/21 09:25 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Then the incentive to develop those strains should be, respectively, to sell to those people who are allergic, to reduce waste from unsold product, and to be able to grow even in warm weather without needing AC. If that's not enough incentive then so be it. That's what the market has decided those characteristics are worth. Why should X government sweeten the deal for cultivators? Are mushrooms something people can't live without?

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Offlinegone-pear-shaped
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470506 - 09/16/21 10:54 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

It's not about the government sweetening the deal. It's about governments making economic activity possible that needs more than ten customers to be viable. So say I wanted to create a special variety. I could dedicate my free time in most of my life to it. No thanks. Or, if there are at least a thousand people out there that really want the same characteristics, we chip in and get someone more competent to work on this full time for a year. We would all (probably) get what we want, but only if the money can be organized in advanced.

If the right of distribution of strains is restricted somehow, the money could be invested and regained over time as the strain is sold.

If strains can be copied freely, the project of creating something difficult but worthwhile would be impossible except by volunteers. Volunteering for causes you believe in is great, but progress is a lot slower that way. A lot of things won't get invented.

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: gone-pear-shaped]
    #27470529 - 09/16/21 11:17 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

You didn't really address anything I said, you just restated the point that without the extra incentive those new varieties wouldn't get made. So let me ask the same question in a different way:

A cultivator realizes that by spending effort E he can create a new variety that will bring him a reward R. For the sake of argument let's suppose that the cultivator believes he's estimating these values accurately. The cultivator realizes that E > R, therefore decides not to go through with it. The government has the option to implement a policy that, at the cost in creating new restrictions for everyone other than the cultivator, will add an incentive I to the reward such that R + I > E, thus causing the cultivator to attempt to create the new variety.
Now, my question is, why should the government create new restrictions in order to give this incentive? Is it very important that new varieties are made? Specifically, new varieties that without the incentive wouldn't get made, since I'm sure there are some varieties that are worthwhile doing even without any added incentive.

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Failboat]
    #27470532 - 09/16/21 11:19 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
People grow poppies, people will grow mush. Some gets minimally processed and some is heavily modified and converted. Whether or not we get OTC or freedom of personal production is yet to be determined, but someone will definitely get to grow the medicine.





As much as everyone loves the mush they grow for themselves, if they ever became legal we'd definitely need something professional and laboratory-like to grow for people. The people who currently have deep pockets would get a head-start. I read about that legal grow operation run by the 'truffle brothers' in Amsterdam. They have a walk-in autoclave and a whole room full of big vats of liquid culture manned by teams of people. As much as the work people do here is impressive, one person just can't compete with that.

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OfflineFailboat
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #27470602 - 09/16/21 12:37 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Banks provide loans for houses or even autoclaves the size of a house.:shrug:

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Failboat]
    #27470609 - 09/16/21 12:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
Banks provide loans for houses or even autoclaves the size of a house.:shrug:




That is true, and there will be many investors. Lots of stories of broke kids making it big on the market. Well, if the time of legalization ever comes, best of luck to anyone that enters into business.

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Offlinegone-pear-shaped
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470631 - 09/16/21 01:06 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

InsultingLizard said:
You didn't really address anything I said, you just restated the point that without the extra incentive those new varieties wouldn't get made. So let me ask the same question in a different way:

A cultivator realizes that by spending effort E he can create a new variety that will bring him a reward R. For the sake of argument let's suppose that the cultivator believes he's estimating these values accurately. The cultivator realizes that E > R, therefore decides not to go through with it. The government has the option to implement a policy that, at the cost in creating new restrictions for everyone other than the cultivator, will add an incentive I to the reward such that R + I > E, thus causing the cultivator to attempt to create the new variety.
Now, my question is, why should the government create new restrictions in order to give this incentive? Is it very important that new varieties are made? Specifically, new varieties that without the incentive wouldn't get made, since I'm sure there are some varieties that are worthwhile doing even without any added incentive.



I'm skeptical that there is any restriction at all. You mentioned two worlds: one where there is no plant copyright, and one where there is. But in the first world, there is no biological material that you can't also get in the second world. (I am supposing people that breed new varieties for the fun of it will continue to share their work; for the most part, only investor driven efforts will want to copyright their work.)

But you can convince me to take another look (to become undecided about this; my argument will become moot) if there are mushroom variety creators that do copyright their strains but would still be creating varieties even without that ability. Are there creators that would think "I do this for the love of it, and copyright is just icing on the cake"? If not, there are actually no restrictions, because the varieties would not even exist without the intellectual property rights. (Saying that term makes me feel dirty; I don't like intellectual property rights in general.)

I didn't answer your question this time because it's moot if there are no restrictions when comparing the two possibilities.

Quote:

impossible to compete etc



You're not gonna be able to compete from your living room, but the startup costs of making a mushroom farm are modest compared to most other types of business. It's kind of like starting a brewery. Not cheap, but not out of reach either.

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: gone-pear-shaped]
    #27470709 - 09/16/21 02:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Obviously there are restrictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Plant_Variety_Office#Community_plant_variety_right
And here's what I mentioned earlier about provolone, which is basically the same thing but even more bullshit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origin

Like I said, living organisms can't be copyrighted. It'd be silly to attempt to regulate the copying of a machine that's specifically designed to copy itself as prolifically as possible. Not that that prevents assholes like Monsanto from suing farmers who get seeds blown into their fields.

Quote:

But you can convince me to take another look (to become undecided about this; my argument will become moot) if there are mushroom variety creators that do copyright their strains but would still be creating varieties even without that ability. Are there creators that would think "I do this for the love of it, and copyright is just icing on the cake"? If not, there are actually no restrictions, because the varieties would not even exist without the intellectual property rights.



Hmm... This is an interesting problem of interpretation I'd never considered.
So take books for instance. You can freely read a book to yourself, and you can recite the contents of a book to someone else. But what if someone comes along and says "I'll only write this book I want to write if the government forbids people from reciting my book. You can read it in silence but not speak its contents." Suppose the government passes this law and the book is written, do you have more abilities (you're now able to read in silence more books than before), or more restrictions (now there's at least one book you can't recite, while previously there were none) than before?
I think both are valid interpretations, but IMO there's a new restriction, because the natural state is being able to do whatever the fuck you want with any book, which is why the new law forbids a specific action, rather than explicitly allows an action that was already being carried out.

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Offlinekanemush
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470867 - 09/16/21 05:07 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

fellas please fight in another thread this si not about copyrights or anything it's about how the mushroom farmer is perceived.

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