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Offlinekanemush
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470107 - 09/16/21 02:11 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

InsultingLizard said:
Quote:

DERRAYLD said:
Quote:

kanemush said:
well ok sticking to my post how do you feel about how mushroom farmers are under appreciated?




It's sad but changing daily.
I was chased out of a Chinese vegan store when I offered them free oysters as testers.
Another store told me I was going to make everyone high, I just looked at them confused and said they are oyster mushrooms.



That's hilarious. Where are these growers going around offering free shrooms as if they were edible mushrooms? I want to meet them.
What's even more bizarre to me is that if I knew nothing about mushrooms and I suspected the person giving me one is being malicious, I'd think they're trying to poison me, not that they're giving me psychedelics.





I here that a lot to I bring up mushrooms and people either always say this eww shit, your going to poison me, or your trying to give my a psychedelic. Are people really that dumb out of all mushrooms not many are even known to be active, but that is the first thing they think. Then I grab my oysters saute them up and there like damn that is good and they fall in love with them. That is the key I think is just getting someone to taste them then it is all over there hooked.

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OfflineHaywire
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470117 - 09/16/21 02:33 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

InsultingLizard said:
It's not copyright. Natural living organisms can't be copyrighted (copywritten?), only human-made works can be.
It's CPV restrictions, which forbid commercialization of the cultivar within the EU for 25-30 years. It's the same type of bullshit that makes it so you can't make cheese following the exact provolone process and sell it as provolone unless you made it in a specific region in Italy.




So if a company invests 10 years of research into breeding a sporeless strain they shouldn't be able to protect their investment?


--------------------
Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto


My grows :mushroom2: Outdoor patches

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Haywire]
    #27470196 - 09/16/21 05:41 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Haywire said:
So if a company invests 10 years of research into breeding a sporeless strain they shouldn't be able to protect their investment?



I'm personally opposed to all forms of intellectual property. Maybe I could make an exception for trademarks, since those are rarely abused by rights holders and they're more for the protection of the consumer.
So to answer your question, IMO yes, they shouldn't be able to protect their investment by legal means. I'm fine if they find some other way to do it. For example, by somehow making it impossible to clone the fruits.
The supposed motivation for copyright is to incentivize production of new works. I'm not convinced people would just stop making art if copyright didn't exist, but let's accept it for the sake of argument. Is the price of not having this sort of laws that no one would try to develop strains of mushrooms with novel properties? I find that a more than acceptable trade-off.

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OfflineHaywire
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470276 - 09/16/21 07:37 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

that's exactly the reason why it's necessary.
if the investment can't be protected, nobody is going to invest.
if you spend a couple of millions on the development of a new strain and everyone is allowed to copy and sell it, why on earth would you take that risk?

in reality mushrooms are easy to copy. You'll be able to find sporeless strains from different vendors than sylvan and amycel. just ask around. that's why there are hardly any new strains coming to the market.


--------------------
Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto


My grows :mushroom2: Outdoor patches

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Haywire]
    #27470286 - 09/16/21 07:49 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Oh, no. God forbid we don't get any new gourmet mushroom strains. What would the world come to. :-|

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Offlinegone-pear-shaped
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Registered: 10/30/17
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470340 - 09/16/21 08:57 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Well you know oyster spores tend to make people sick? And that they sensitize so you'd become allergic to them (or have similar symptoms). I'm glad sporeless oysters are available.

But what about high temperature oysters with a slightly better shelf life? Or cool oyster species that can fruit well at higher temperatures. Do we need them? No, but they would be great, and would enable types of farming that aren't currently possible.

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: gone-pear-shaped]
    #27470364 - 09/16/21 09:25 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Then the incentive to develop those strains should be, respectively, to sell to those people who are allergic, to reduce waste from unsold product, and to be able to grow even in warm weather without needing AC. If that's not enough incentive then so be it. That's what the market has decided those characteristics are worth. Why should X government sweeten the deal for cultivators? Are mushrooms something people can't live without?

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Offlinegone-pear-shaped
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Registered: 10/30/17
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470506 - 09/16/21 10:54 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

It's not about the government sweetening the deal. It's about governments making economic activity possible that needs more than ten customers to be viable. So say I wanted to create a special variety. I could dedicate my free time in most of my life to it. No thanks. Or, if there are at least a thousand people out there that really want the same characteristics, we chip in and get someone more competent to work on this full time for a year. We would all (probably) get what we want, but only if the money can be organized in advanced.

If the right of distribution of strains is restricted somehow, the money could be invested and regained over time as the strain is sold.

If strains can be copied freely, the project of creating something difficult but worthwhile would be impossible except by volunteers. Volunteering for causes you believe in is great, but progress is a lot slower that way. A lot of things won't get invented.

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: gone-pear-shaped]
    #27470529 - 09/16/21 11:17 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

You didn't really address anything I said, you just restated the point that without the extra incentive those new varieties wouldn't get made. So let me ask the same question in a different way:

A cultivator realizes that by spending effort E he can create a new variety that will bring him a reward R. For the sake of argument let's suppose that the cultivator believes he's estimating these values accurately. The cultivator realizes that E > R, therefore decides not to go through with it. The government has the option to implement a policy that, at the cost in creating new restrictions for everyone other than the cultivator, will add an incentive I to the reward such that R + I > E, thus causing the cultivator to attempt to create the new variety.
Now, my question is, why should the government create new restrictions in order to give this incentive? Is it very important that new varieties are made? Specifically, new varieties that without the incentive wouldn't get made, since I'm sure there are some varieties that are worthwhile doing even without any added incentive.

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Failboat]
    #27470532 - 09/16/21 11:19 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
People grow poppies, people will grow mush. Some gets minimally processed and some is heavily modified and converted. Whether or not we get OTC or freedom of personal production is yet to be determined, but someone will definitely get to grow the medicine.





As much as everyone loves the mush they grow for themselves, if they ever became legal we'd definitely need something professional and laboratory-like to grow for people. The people who currently have deep pockets would get a head-start. I read about that legal grow operation run by the 'truffle brothers' in Amsterdam. They have a walk-in autoclave and a whole room full of big vats of liquid culture manned by teams of people. As much as the work people do here is impressive, one person just can't compete with that.

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OfflineFailboat
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #27470602 - 09/16/21 12:37 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Banks provide loans for houses or even autoclaves the size of a house.:shrug:

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Posts: 3,374
Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: Failboat]
    #27470609 - 09/16/21 12:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
Banks provide loans for houses or even autoclaves the size of a house.:shrug:




That is true, and there will be many investors. Lots of stories of broke kids making it big on the market. Well, if the time of legalization ever comes, best of luck to anyone that enters into business.

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Offlinegone-pear-shaped
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470631 - 09/16/21 01:06 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

InsultingLizard said:
You didn't really address anything I said, you just restated the point that without the extra incentive those new varieties wouldn't get made. So let me ask the same question in a different way:

A cultivator realizes that by spending effort E he can create a new variety that will bring him a reward R. For the sake of argument let's suppose that the cultivator believes he's estimating these values accurately. The cultivator realizes that E > R, therefore decides not to go through with it. The government has the option to implement a policy that, at the cost in creating new restrictions for everyone other than the cultivator, will add an incentive I to the reward such that R + I > E, thus causing the cultivator to attempt to create the new variety.
Now, my question is, why should the government create new restrictions in order to give this incentive? Is it very important that new varieties are made? Specifically, new varieties that without the incentive wouldn't get made, since I'm sure there are some varieties that are worthwhile doing even without any added incentive.



I'm skeptical that there is any restriction at all. You mentioned two worlds: one where there is no plant copyright, and one where there is. But in the first world, there is no biological material that you can't also get in the second world. (I am supposing people that breed new varieties for the fun of it will continue to share their work; for the most part, only investor driven efforts will want to copyright their work.)

But you can convince me to take another look (to become undecided about this; my argument will become moot) if there are mushroom variety creators that do copyright their strains but would still be creating varieties even without that ability. Are there creators that would think "I do this for the love of it, and copyright is just icing on the cake"? If not, there are actually no restrictions, because the varieties would not even exist without the intellectual property rights. (Saying that term makes me feel dirty; I don't like intellectual property rights in general.)

I didn't answer your question this time because it's moot if there are no restrictions when comparing the two possibilities.

Quote:

impossible to compete etc



You're not gonna be able to compete from your living room, but the startup costs of making a mushroom farm are modest compared to most other types of business. It's kind of like starting a brewery. Not cheap, but not out of reach either.

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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: gone-pear-shaped]
    #27470709 - 09/16/21 02:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Obviously there are restrictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Plant_Variety_Office#Community_plant_variety_right
And here's what I mentioned earlier about provolone, which is basically the same thing but even more bullshit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origin

Like I said, living organisms can't be copyrighted. It'd be silly to attempt to regulate the copying of a machine that's specifically designed to copy itself as prolifically as possible. Not that that prevents assholes like Monsanto from suing farmers who get seeds blown into their fields.

Quote:

But you can convince me to take another look (to become undecided about this; my argument will become moot) if there are mushroom variety creators that do copyright their strains but would still be creating varieties even without that ability. Are there creators that would think "I do this for the love of it, and copyright is just icing on the cake"? If not, there are actually no restrictions, because the varieties would not even exist without the intellectual property rights.



Hmm... This is an interesting problem of interpretation I'd never considered.
So take books for instance. You can freely read a book to yourself, and you can recite the contents of a book to someone else. But what if someone comes along and says "I'll only write this book I want to write if the government forbids people from reciting my book. You can read it in silence but not speak its contents." Suppose the government passes this law and the book is written, do you have more abilities (you're now able to read in silence more books than before), or more restrictions (now there's at least one book you can't recite, while previously there were none) than before?
I think both are valid interpretations, but IMO there's a new restriction, because the natural state is being able to do whatever the fuck you want with any book, which is why the new law forbids a specific action, rather than explicitly allows an action that was already being carried out.

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Offlinekanemush
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Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #27470867 - 09/16/21 05:07 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

fellas please fight in another thread this si not about copyrights or anything it's about how the mushroom farmer is perceived.

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