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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27455064 - 09/03/21 03:51 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe a device someday could objectively quantify consciousness by scaning the brain to count the active neural connections that are participating in sensory input, perception, and memory.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27455065 - 09/03/21 03:52 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Eureka!


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27455218 - 09/03/21 06:03 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
interesting that you say "aware",
I used to agree with that, 'that awareness is a measure of consciousness', but have come to consider that consciousness or being conscious is the potential of awareness, of sensation, of perception and thought.





Differences in consciousness, awareness, and sentience could perhaps be deep enough subjects to be the topic of an entire thread.

A bee operates on a serotonin-based nervous system. It must feel like something to be a bee. Is a bee more conscious than a squirrel, and is a squirrel more conscious than a chimpanzee, and are we more conscious than a chimpanzee? Are some humans more conscious than others while awake? I would say if consciousness is a function of neural connections in the brain (as related to sensory input, perception, and memory via repetition), then a bee would have fewer neural connections, less perception, and less memory.

So consciousness could, theoretically, be quantified.




.    Note that you assume sort of generally, -  that the consciousness of a bee, squirrel, and a chimp etc. are stable, which seems to be where a neurological explanation also anchors itself.

.    If we backup and wonder a bit more about say, lucid dreaming it immediately appears that not only is 'consciousness' on a spectrum, but that it is dynamically variable, and that furthermore it seems in everyday life to be inextricably interlinked with self (what ever 'that' is). While within a lucid dream the assumption of what the self is, changes - while in a state related to REM sleep, the moment lucidity occurs !!

.    There are also a number of odd psychological conditions where dissociations of various sorts occur, which may raise more interesting questions.
.    For some examples see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization-derealization_disorder
or the writings of Oliver Sacks

.  Short of a Zen approach which is often just "preaching to the choir", this free pdf of Ajahn Sumedho's commentary on the subject, may provide some useful clarity on the matter,
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=intuitive-awareness.pdf&t=hx&va=g&ia=web
there is  a choice of links that have free downloads.


Edited by laughingdog (09/03/21 06:18 PM)


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog]
    #27455398 - 09/03/21 09:40 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
.    There are also a number of odd psychological conditions where dissociations of various sorts occur, which may raise more interesting questions.





Yeah I suppose consciousness can vary wildly in one mind from moment to moment. That makes sense.

So interesting that so many varied medical conditions can mess with the human neural operating system ("Sense_of_self.exe"?) like someone going into the registry editor of a computer and messing with things. Maybe that's a pretty bad analogy.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27455507 - 09/04/21 03:05 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

What is the nature of curiosity in consciousness?

Can we make a statement that people are curious about different things?

So therefore following our curiosity could be an honest seat of emotion.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27455516 - 09/04/21 03:38 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Maybe a device someday could objectively quantify consciousness by scaning the brain to count the active neural connections that are participating in sensory input, perception, and memory.



counting the active primary cortical neurons will tell you how much of consciousness is involved in the current moment - perception (reactivated memory engrams) and sensation.

counting the primary cortical neurons (pcn) that are not active but still have some metabolites  from activity will indicate how much short term memory or contextual continuity the consciousness has behind it.

measuring the duration of the loops between thalamus and cortex will tell how emotional or stoned someone is but we all know that can vary in range from positive to negative to transcendent (smooth pattern shifts and harmonies probably indicate happy experience, intense shifts and body zone anxiety can already suggest difficult moods).

measuring spike formation rates at pcn dendrites will indicate ability to form memory (from alzheimers or low IQ to genius).

so a lot could be measured to different diagnostic value - but different than current level equipment needs to be developed.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27455517 - 09/04/21 03:40 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
What is the nature of curiosity in consciousness?

Can we make a statement that people are curious about different things?

So therefore following our curiosity could be an honest seat of emotion.



curiosity or interest is related to attention span which is a combination of short term memory and general intelligence


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog]
    #27455520 - 09/04/21 03:48 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

you have several interests and the comments show uncanny passion
I have to admit buckshot shooting works well for a flock of geese or ducks.

the comment I found most interesting is that bee brains use serotonin as the exclusive neurotransmitter. I am not sure it means very much to me at this time.

otherwise, if it is possible to focus on one aspect of something per post, it would make discussion easier, or start new threads. maybe.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27456107 - 09/04/21 02:58 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

The post about Bees was by Moses_Davidson on 09/03/21 05:44, & not my self.

I will cease to make posts in your thread, that relate to the subjective nature of awareness/consciousness/experiencing. That was the common thread, uniting what you refer to as buckshot. That last post, by myself, was about Lucid dreaming, and not bees. In any case your intent is clearly not in that direction, so I will cease bringing up that aspect. In any case many others have already done so, particularly as it relates to meditation, as many are already aware.

:smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog]
    #27456367 - 09/04/21 07:42 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

sorry


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27456638 - 09/05/21 03:12 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said: the role GABA suppression neurons play is to suppress thalamic activity in a set of neurons eg. to suppress all hearing, or just to suppress a frequency range so you can hear speech better at a bar (that is if you have good hearing in the first place) or to suppress sensation from your body while playing a video game, or to suppress thoughts of catastrophe while driving in a hair pin turn.

it is finer control than turning off an entire sense, but not finer than turning off individual fingers of the hand, but internally you get to turn off traffic going to various lobes, and this can affect abstract thought, permitting you to think differently from the same premises, from the same perceptions yet with some suppressed allowing other feeds to expand their influence on consciousness.




And still, what of the excitatory channel?

Quote:

Also known as corticotropin-releasing factor, or CRH/CRF for short. CRH acts as a hormone and neurotransmitter and is released from the hypothalamus during the stress response.




Do GABA suppression neurons play a role in this too? Can they suppress the results of, or prevent the actions of CRH?

And if suppression is diverse in what it can suppress, what would be useful to suppress?

Can we get a list? Because perhaps thoughts of catastrophe is a good one to start with. imo.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27456650 - 09/05/21 03:42 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

You said it yourself that there's a role to play for the hypothalamus in you're coup de grace,

Quote:

redgreenvines said The hypothalamus and other basal ganglia enable selective suppression controls, which I marked in red (B)  in the diagram. (these are an optional associative response class in the order of perceptions.) without this we would not be able to focus.




I haven't seen any mention of PVN, and I don't claim to have a great deal of knowledge about it, but it seems to me that if the hypothalamus is having an influence on the thalamus that it is of importance and should be more thoroughly uncovered.

Like where do the factors that the hypothalamus influences fit in to your model?

Quote:

The paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus (PVN) has emerged as one of the most important autonomic control centers in the brain, with neurons playing essential roles in controlling stress, metabolism, growth, reproduction, immune, and other more traditional autonomic functions

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2682920/




1. This seems to suggest that GABA can regulate the stress response to some degree.

2. THDOC is demonstrated to decrease the firing rate of CRH neurons, which I find interesting. I don't know much about THDOC yet but it has peaked my interest.

3. GABA again is suggested to play a role in the inhibition of CRH neurons.

4. Here it's suggested the role of GABA to inhibit the stress response is reversed after the stress response because of a depolarizing shift. 

Quote:

These data are consistent with previous findings demonstrating changes in GABAAR δ subunit expression in parvocellular neurons in the PVN following stress, implicating these receptors in the regulation of the stress response. In response to stress, THDOC and allopregnanolone are released at levels which can potently modulate GABAARs.

Under basal conditions, neurosteroids can exert a negative feedback onto the HPA axis, decreasing CRH and ACTH levels. 1. Recent data demonstrate a role for neurosteroid actions on GABAAR δ subunit-containing receptors on CRH neurons in the regulation of the HPA axis, and thus, production of stress hormones. 2. This study demonstrates a decrease in the firing rate of CRH neurons upon the addition of a low concentration of THDOC (10 nM) under basal conditions.

3. Further, the role of the GABAAR δ subunit in the neurosteroid regulation of CRH neurons was confirmed by demonstrating the loss of this regulation in mice lacking the GABAAR δ subunit (Gabrd−/− mice). Together, there is ample evidence that under normal conditions, there is a basal GABAergic inhibition of CRH neurons.

Interestingly, the effects of GABA on CRH neurons are dramatically altered following stress. Stress activates GABAergic neurons which project to the PVN, which would intuitively suggest inhibition of the HPA axis rather than activation. However, GABA agonists have been shown to increase stress-induced corticosterone levels and blocking production with finasteride has been shown to blunt the corticosterone response to stress.

However, due to the fact that both THDOC and allopregnanolone levels are elevated following stress, it isn't clear which of these neurosteroids are responsible for activation of the HPA axis. 4.The role of neurosteroids on GABAAR δ subunit-containing receptors in the activation of the HPA axis following stress, implicates excitatory actions of GABA in regulation of the HPA axis. Recent evidence suggests that there are deficits in GABAergic control of CRH neurons following stress due to a depolarizing shift in the reversal potential for chloride (Cl−).

The inhibitory effects of GABA require the maintenance of the Cl− gradient, which is primarily accomplished by the K+/Cl− co-transporter, KCC2, in the adult brain.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2012.00004/full




I thought it made sense that GABA played a role in inhibiting CRH neurons, but found it odd that this control or effect is lost after the stress response. It seems to me that GABA is more of a preventative than a cure but that's just :2cents:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27456674 - 09/05/21 05:16 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

the inhibition action of gaba from hypothalamus fits in as described for steering attention away from distraction sensation/ideation channels, other gaba activity probably exists in smaller negative feedback circuits, but I am not looking at the vast number of these that I know exist in humans and other animals' brains as part of sensory enhancement and motor control.

The HPA axis in the model I am describing is related to autonomic function of the organism which I am also not in this model, I barely show it as a sensory feed from the body to the thalamus, after the impacts of HPA intervention. eg. heart racing, gut signals leading to need to get to washroom, signals of threat leading to need to escape, or need to calm down. I do not question the survival value of the HPA axis but I an not exploring it in this chart.

i.e. HPA and GABA is not primarily thalamic or cortical except for suppression of Cortico-thalamic signals, it is not exactly involved in associative functions (but triggers to FlightOrFight responses can be learned - this is certain, and probably mitigated via sensory assessment of change in environment which suggests frontal cortex state changes of a large quantity of pyramidal neuron branches feeding in from other lobes (white matter bundles) - sudden noise or sudden silence, etc.). I think of it not primarily as mental contents in detail, though it becomes mental content after being triggered - more like mental content amplitude variance hard-wired to HPA - like pain receptors which are pretty much amplitude or volume knobbish, resulting in reflex actions - some without even hitting the brain until later.

I am more concerned with the function and detailed content of consciousness, with what enables the composition of an idea, a memory, the way the mind handles vocabulary, dream content etc. In this chart I have not differentiated between the various cortical lobes which do have predominant content related functions, or with the cerebellum which I believe is a wonderful multi-timer mechanism that connects to the thalamus as a sixth internal sense required for motor control, but is also connected to temporal lobes as part of hearing, rhythm and language - for now I leave these faculties and facilities out of the core chart of the significant association machine: to help explain how what happens together wires together in the brain.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog]
    #27456811 - 09/05/21 08:21 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

measuring spike formation rates at pcn dendrites will indicate ability to form memory (from alzheimers or low IQ to genius).





So THAT is my problem!

Fascinating stuff. Fascinating indeed.


Quote:

laughingdog said:
The post about Bees was by Moses_Davidson on 09/03/21 05:44, & not my self.





Perhaps RGV confused us while answering several different questions. I don't think the bee itself was the problem, but the multitude of subjects in this thread which led to his pcn dendrites being unable to form spikes fast enough to keep them all straight.

SO... my short term memory is absolute crrrrrap, and getting worse with age, evidently due to being unable to form dendrite spikes as easily as when I was younger.

My "takehome" from Consciousness 101 is that I should probably try to somehow use this information to raise my quantifiable consciousness and increase my ability to form those dendrite spikes.

I am presently microdosing, taking lion's mane, ginko biloba, coconut oil (medium chain triglycerides used on formation of said spiky dendrites)... what can be done to improve all of this function? Granted I probably need more sleep and less stress.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27456868 - 09/05/21 09:05 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Are you sure your short term memory is failing? that would be the relatively higher excitability of recently active pcn's innervated by thalamus vs long term memory formed by spikes innervated by pyramidal branches that link things together.

usually short term memory goes last.

eat sardines is my advice on all things, in extra virgin olive oil if at all possible, and skip the apple pie except on birthdays and high holidays that permit it.

I have to get a handle on my ice cream consumption, creamy cherry on a stick with chocolate is bad for my brain.

lots of bees (yellow jackets actually) last night at a garden gathering - did not bother us but loved the sgt pepper.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27456891 - 09/05/21 09:21 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

on my first lsd trip I was convinced that there could not be better music than that album


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27456893 - 09/05/21 09:22 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I have it much better now I have crossed over into the point of having it really good
yay!
and it is going really well with my action
my strategy is dope as fuck


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27456899 - 09/05/21 09:29 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

the addition of tranquility is like adding nothing, but with so much benefit.

I highly recommend adding nothing this way.

zero is my favorite number


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27456964 - 09/05/21 10:43 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

the sardines is good for priorities, everything!
all soonness


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27456966 - 09/05/21 10:44 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I was watching the new twin peaks and had a feeling I would have it better with meditation and it would be like this and did it


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