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Yellow Pants


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27469245 - 09/15/21 11:13 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
C) Humans have not gone beyond instinct consciousness at all - nothing specifically evolution-wise (although adaptive ingenuity is related somewhat - largely we have needed it mostly to adapt to the threats that other humans present as a subset of all of nature in our niche - the rest of the threats are absorbed mostly by social organization (of which science and medicine contribute a lot))
What about any of this would you primarily relate to an instinct that resembles anything like a natural adaptive mechanism?
Sure, we may have not altered our genetics a whole lot relative to our ancestors for example but like you said consciousness is a different topic than evolution. I was addressing the proposition from sudly if you want to look at that.
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#27469289 - 09/15/21 12:04 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think that consciousness is same thing as instinct - toperate instinct has to have referential memory engrams or wired in features like HPA axis + sensation to trigger the instinctual perception which is the result.
it is certainly adaptive, but it has been in vertebrates since the beginning of fishes. and in invertebrates as well.
in addition to other expressions of instinct, we have language and creative arts. some creatures have prehensile tails or venom.
I prefer what we have but wings would have been fun too.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27469336 - 09/15/21 12:44 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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But is it (consciousness) the instinct of what would be attributed to an evolutionary understanding of modern humanity? Have we not evolved consciously in a way that begins to deviate from Darwinism?
Social institutions can suppress the conscious/evolutionary procedure that would ordinarily feed into Darwin's thing. And yet people get utterly crazy and prosper because of it sometimes. What I am saying is that how can you equate mechanisms of modern humanity w/ the mechanisms of a less strange animal and their relationship to the environment and nature? I just don't see how you couldn't say at a certain point, "Well, the talking monkeys have really done it this time. They are clearly a bunch of space cadets now"
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] 1
#27469346 - 09/15/21 12:56 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: There's a probability that the Sun will rise tomorrow, and there's a probability that from hence we came was evolution.
All I'm more or less asking is, if 'out of body' evolved, or is mystical.
There you go- now you are talking in scientific terms. Those are scientifically valid statements.
If I say, "If a spirit unique to humans that is beyond the body evolved, science cannot support this and it is improbable to have happened due to the the laws of nature being very consistent," then nobody can really argue with that statement... at least not with any information I know of. I suppose someone could come up with a really good argument, but it is a "valid" statement to me- which implies it is based upon sound rhetoric.
A highly religious person would have to concede that it would require an anomaly of the laws of nature to suddenly inject an a-corporal human spirit into the human body.
I agree with you, but for the record people can have opposing views while both of them are using valid arguments. This happens all the time in the scientific literature. Also, a true statement can even be supported by an invalid argument, such as, "Because Hemmingway said so, the sun will rise tomorrow."
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27469352 - 09/15/21 01:01 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
I prefer what we have but wings would have been fun too.
Flying around with wings is overrated. I have hit a few too many trees and decided to just stick with walking around in the dirt.
Not an actual picture of me... but you get the idea.

LOL I can't believe they let anyone fly these without a license.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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we are not biologically gifted for that
@yellowpants
I really do not mind if you want to make human consciousness a matter of evolution, it really does help to refine understanding of what parts of the brain do to look comparatively at what is in related species and try to imagine back.
We would not rightly be able to say too much about brains that have not become fossilized due to pudding consistency physicality that does not properly petrify.
however we can propose backwards if that is what we feel like doing.
Mostly I am trying to explain how the brain operates and produces the conscious effects. Many terms that we are using like intuition, perception, memory, sensation, etc. have wildly different meaning as unbound terms. I am trying to bind them consistently to the form and function of the brain in a realistic way.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27469432 - 09/15/21 02:10 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Scientific studies of that nature definitely help to understand experience. Seems like modern people are more geared to refer to the "data" or the "studies" which have become somewhat evolved compared to the dark ages. And those who deny the science are shamed hardcore. But we're still figuring it all out and making alot of mistakes
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#27469729 - 09/15/21 06:45 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sounds to me like you're suggesting the acquisition of tool use is akin to mysticism.
Adding on or going beyond those natural instincts.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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If you think it's a good tactic to throw in technically valid arguments like that of the probability the Sun does not rise tomorrow then you do you.
Their is such thing as neutrality bias though.
Quote:
False balance, also bothsidesism, is a media bias in which journalists present an issue as being more balanced between opposing viewpoints than the evidence supports. Journalists may present evidence and arguments out of proportion to the actual evidence for each side, or may omit information that would establish one side's claims as baseless. False balance has been cited as a cause of misinformation.
Exaggerated portrayal of false balance in science journalism
False balance is a bias, which usually stems from an attempt to avoid bias, and gives unsupported or dubious positions an illusion of respectability. It creates a public perception that some issues are scientifically contentious, though in reality they aren't, therefore creating doubt about the scientific state of research, and can be exploited by interest groups such as corporations like the fossil fuel industry or the tobacco industry, or ideologically motivated activists such as vaccination opponents or creationists.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#27469845 - 09/15/21 08:06 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: ... And those who deny the science are shamed hardcore. But we're still figuring it all out and making alot of mistakes
You know, that's true!
When I was in grade school, they taught us that pluto was a planet, there was a dinosaur called a "brontosaurus" (it was about as popular and well-known as T-rex and tricerotops), and they taught that the universe was eternal with no beginning because it just kept cycling between big bangs and big crunches, bouncing along eternally and had always been here.
So, yeah, we do need to keep an open mind and a healthy sense of skepticism towards that which we believe: including science. Skepticism and objectivity should be directed towards what I say, what you hear on TV, and toward what you read in a peer reviewed journal or from the lectern at Oxford... not just toward people with un-popular ideas.
Many scientists are dogmatic and religious when it comes to sticking to their theoretical frameworks. When they proved that the universe had a beginning, a lot of them hated the idea so much that they clung on to all sorts of silly ideas that today are a huge embarrassment to astrophysicists.
And you know what? Some of the things that we are taught in school now will inevitably be likewise overturned.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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Icon
Bloomer


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] 1
#27469851 - 09/15/21 08:09 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks for putting a definition on neutrality bias. That's exactly what some religious people hide behind. The belief that the world is in the hands of a higher power and all events are part of a destiny is neutrality bias isn't it? It's a neutral, non-dualistic dismissal of right vs wrong and probabilistic evidence to avoid challenges to their own beliefs.
How do you guys think music plays a role in consciousness? It seems like something as old to man as consciousness. The ability to read the present, past and predict the future is all required to keep a rhythm. Most animals seem unconscious of musical patterns. Maybe some exceptions for birds and dolphins but language and rhythm mostly require consciousness. And music is a good exercise of awareness. In a way, you can make anything in life 'musical' if you're good at it; like rap, sports, or hand skills. As you practice you 'get the rhythm' and it becomes a behavior from predictive repetition. It's also described as 'flow' when you tap into that deep, rhythmic consciousness.
I think it's interesting that hallucinations respond to music. Like if I'm hallucinating a mandala of colorful orbs and also play music the mandala rotates at a different pace and the orbs change their pulse to the rhythm of the music and the shapes snap to different forms on beat. How can the visuals do that without some kind of predictive machine, ie our brains.
You need some more intuitive graphics for your concept RGV, like these models on flow:
Edited by Icon (09/15/21 08:34 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Icon] 1
#27469887 - 09/15/21 08:41 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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first ya got yer cerebellum that can sustain hundreds of thousands of simultaneous timing and delay circuits which feed into the temporal lobes partly through the thalamus. then ya got yer whole sense of hearing pumping into the temporal and frontal lobes through the thalamus and you get your resonance pattern perceptions that match the beats with all else that is playing in your consciousness at the time (like a hallucinated cartoon universe that bounds into being on time and in tune...)
@Sudly, darling, Darwin is not mad at me, and neither should you be.
I respect that we do do tools, and that many other creatures do it too, it is not a single gene, but we love doing new things and fixing things, well, at least some of us do. And we keep telling stories about it which makes it more alive and more real.
and then there's math and physics and music and painting, and movies and space travel... not phenotypes but arguments, stories, artworks, projects, the results of discussions and questions with physical products emerging.
the density of our collaborating society is producing this creative effect ever more quickly now with no significant genetic change from 200 years ago or 2000 years.
I't not like robots were lying dormant in our dna for millenia! I think it's just that we (some of us) can manage to live together without exploding. and some cannot. and that might be genetic.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Icon] 1
#27469968 - 09/15/21 10:13 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icon said: The belief that the world is in the hands of a higher power and all events are part of a destiny is neutrality bias isn't it? It's a neutral, non-dualistic dismissal of right vs wrong and probabilistic evidence to avoid challenges to their own beliefs
Is divine fate a neutrality bias?
I'm not sure what you're asking.
I think a neutrality bias would appear in more context, but it can also mean not correcting factual untruths or errors on the grounds of giving everyone an opportunity to express their opinion
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27469969 - 09/15/21 10:14 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dormant potential doesn't sound too mystical to me.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Icon
Bloomer


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] 1
#27469976 - 09/15/21 10:22 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Icon said: The belief that the world is in the hands of a higher power and all events are part of a destiny is neutrality bias isn't it? It's a neutral, non-dualistic dismissal of right vs wrong and probabilistic evidence to avoid challenges to their own beliefs
Is divine fate a neutrality bias?
I'm not sure what you're asking.
I think a neutrality bias would appear in more context, but it can also mean not correcting factual untruths or errors on the grounds of giving everyone an opportunity to express their opinion
Like, a delusionally neutral person when asked about their views on the holocaust might say "We cannot determine the ultimate will and ways of the supreme being so we should not attempt to judge the actions of any man, its creation." And skirt around other ethical dilemmas by clinging to shreds of doubt that things aren't as they seem. Usually because corruption of morality on a holocaust level casts doubt on an omnipresent and graceful creator. It's safer for them to remain neutral and pass the buck down to an undefinable destiny.
And that attitude does lead to manipulation, like blind faith that things aren't that bad or even meant to be. The same people play devil's advocate when reasoning a rape victim asked for it, a black person is projecting racism, or a poor person doesn't try hard enough. There's evidence of systemic corruption but it's presented neutrally or as an individual's problem. Like oh man the climate is changing what could be the cause, maybe if we all recycle it'll just go away. Instead of addressing and holding accountable the corrupt production practices that are completely unhinged from social ethics. I'm sort of rambling maybe this isn't related to neutrality bias.
Edited by Icon (09/15/21 11:22 PM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27470119 - 09/16/21 02:36 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Is a long shot but imo, it would be nice to see a cropped model of the feedback loop in the thalamus, and how the hypothalamus links to, or provides suppression.
For that visual.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Ferdinando


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27470204 - 09/16/21 06:07 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I prefer what we have but wings would have been fun too.
wow good point I get that
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] 2
#27470260 - 09/16/21 07:16 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Is a long shot but imo, it would be nice to see a cropped model of the feedback loop in the thalamus, and how the hypothalamus links to, or provides suppression.
For that visual.

black dot represents a thalamic neuron receiving axon from somatic sensory nerve (1) and projecting to cortex (2), Cortical feedback (3) is blocked by suppression from Hypothalamus (4+5). the frontal cortex can "conjure" hypothalamic suppression in an efferent way that does not go through the thalamus but is learned through experience.
in this view a previous series of mental formations would have set up the suppression, and since it is set up, the somatic sensory event does not establish feedback but it does produce a single ephaptic field pulse that can momentarily affect other fields (e.g. blindsight in which events that are not perceived have real but subtle impact on behavior)
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Icon
Bloomer


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27470282 - 09/16/21 07:45 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Is this related? https://elifesciences.org/articles/59784
Quote:
Psychedelic drugs are potent modulators of conscious states and therefore powerful tools for investigating their neurobiology. N,N, Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) can rapidly induce an extremely immersive state of consciousness characterized by vivid and elaborate visual imagery. Here, we investigated the electrophysiological correlates of the DMT-induced altered state from a pool of participants receiving DMT and (separately) placebo (saline) while instructed to keep their eyes closed. Consistent with our hypotheses, results revealed a spatio-temporal pattern of cortical activation (i.e. travelling waves) similar to that elicited by visual stimulation. Moreover, the typical top-down alpha-band rhythms of closed-eyes rest were significantly decreased, while the bottom-up forward wave was significantly increased. These results support a recent model proposing that psychedelics reduce the ‘precision-weighting of priors’, thus altering the balance of top-down versus bottom-up information passing. The robust hypothesis-confirming nature of these findings imply the discovery of an important mechanistic principle underpinning psychedelic-induced altered states.
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Icon] 1
#27470304 - 09/16/21 08:07 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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definitely related, the travelling waves are ephapsis field effects, but what they call top down and bottom up are related to the frontal cortex being considered top and occipital as being lower - they are not talking about the field generation process which is talamo-cortical.
I call the cortical-thalamo side of the feedback for one field event top down, and the thalamo-cortical part as bottom up.
I am looking at what is happening in 1/20th of a second between specific neurons, and they are talking about generalities of field activity between regions of the brain over several minutes, and where the bulk of thousands of field events are occurring with dmt and without.
yes, anything in the frontal area is primarily cognitive or hallucinatory and what is in the occipital lobes is primarily visual sensation or memory.
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