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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27465176 - 09/12/21 08:27 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
for things like the big bang, I find I am stretching my abilities to look into a lens that has altered rules of light and dimensional continuity or time. It's humbling and invigorating.

as for out of body experiencing, or levitation, or prescience, I am only at the level of guessing how the cards might cut in a game of cribbage with my wife, and that context is amazingly fun, but not portentous, or significant.

That said, i concur with what sudly said with regard to energy and consciousness...




I don't know if I agree with you and Sudly or not. I'd have to say I'm somewhat agnostic on the subject of the human soul.

From a religious historical perspective, there was a rather large portion of the Rabbinical sages that did NOT believe in a soul or any form of eternal life at all. But, the other half of them believed that there would be a resurrection of the body, in another dimension. Modern Judiasm (and Christianity as well) embraced the resurrection. There is a lot of talk about the resurrection in the Bible... and the word for "spirit" in Greek (pneuma) means breath (or wind) in most contexts.

So it is feasible to me to believe that the spirit of a person is that breath of life of a person, and the resurrection is the bodily resurrection of that life and of that body, in another dimension... and that there could be nothing beyond our physical bodies in this dimension/universe.

Or maybe there is a ghost-like spirit within us. I've thought on this a lot, and have talked with many theologians on the subject. I still don't have enough information to make a confident decision on the subject.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27465184 - 09/12/21 08:36 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

because it supposes another dimension and other stuff we do not see or know, I prefer not to think of that at all, eg. souls, rebirth, esp. levitation etc.
those ideas just hang and make little progress in my mind.

distortions from religion have never worked for me. even very close beloved relatives who once guided my every move are no longer models of integrity to me, due to religious conformity and the ridiculous statements that they can now make as part of a congregation of believers.

one man's integrity can be another man's crime.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Registered: 11/15/09
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27465343 - 09/12/21 10:36 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I wish people would just be straight


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Ferdinando] * 1
    #27465349 - 09/12/21 10:41 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

your signature reminds me of meditation
I like to think of it in connection with meditation being of unestimable value
it's fun because it smiles so it's like a smile of unestimable size


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


Edited by Ferdinando (09/12/21 10:42 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Ferdinando] * 1
    #27465543 - 09/12/21 12:47 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

yes,
I too love that Cheshire cat, it's so coherent:
like perception, the smile as perceived leads the rest of the cat to appear, like memory emerging from the dark branches.

of course it goes the other way too, and cannot be held back.

edit:
My sig has since changed


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Edited by redgreenvines (05/30/23 09:02 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Registered: 08/16/16
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Ferdinando] * 2
    #27465550 - 09/12/21 12:50 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Dunno if this belongs here but want to get it out (again) somewhere I can reference real quick.  Can edit it later...

Just woke up from a nap where I retained lucidity through the entirety of it.  It began when I became aware that I had left my iPad on playing Star Trek TNG and I could hear it as if muffled underwater due to me descending into another state of consciousness that goes with sleep then with a clearish-silverywhite light between the eyes area (either above the forehead or on it - either way it’s all mental really so pinning down its locality is whatever).  I focused my attention to this clear light and concentrated it - played with it a bit - changed its shape - and the more I did the more real it became to me - and then eventually pulled it into the centre of my being and let it dissolve into me - and man - when I did that incredibly intense vibrations just poured all throughout my body. 


Felt like a pure cleansing energy or fire almost seizure like if it went any further.  Incredibly euphoric - also pretty darn frightening at times, but this time I didn’t take my hands off the wheels (or rather I kept them off the whole time and fought the instinct to grab hold of the “wheel” thereby allowing the experience to continue to a point I never thought possible.  I rode that baby as far as my mind could take it.  Experienced literally dozens upon dozens of false awakenings all while lucid, worked on meta material in me that if not confronted could lead to worse trauma - what guidance from myself in this place/space that was most in line with the dharma and the gospel.  I wrote the whole thing down after waking up and I’m going to go visit the central scene of the crime, so to speak, that being the place the majority of the dream took place at (some pool nearby to where I live).

Pretty darn neat.

Anyways.  The really interesting points were when things like attention, sensation, memory, and free will  all were watched linking up or rather me aware of their inherent linkyness but it was beautiful like watching DNA self replicate in real time on the micro level standing beside the stuff or something.  Free Will actually gets a place in space! 
It wasn’t like my usual rare lucid dream experiences, went way beyond that and I’m only sharing a sliver of it here bc the rest is only intelligible to me.  Any who, a Freebie mystical experience completely sober!  Exact same after effects as a good good psychedelic trip, bc really, it was psychedelic as fuck.  Strange strange mysterious life we live, this reality! Hot damn!  Hip hip hooray 😁.  :cheers:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #27465563 - 09/12/21 12:59 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

sounds like your neat and dandy tantric yoga nap!

edit: I love Star Trek, and am reading all the tng books etc. etc.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Edited by redgreenvines (05/30/23 09:03 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27466132 - 09/12/21 09:33 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

You can make the claim something to do with human beings is out of body if you secede a full view of evolution.

A statement that says, in regard to human beings, out of body is not in sync with evolutionary ideals; is fine.

Such has already been observed.

Interpret it how you will, we have proven and observed that evolution is real.

You have not clearly asked a question in your first 3 paragraphs.

The difference between the origin of the universe and the origin of the diversity of life (evolution), is that we have already succinctly proven and observed evolution.

Again, interpret it how you will, we did evolve and if you want to claim something out of body, I think it's important to point out where you believe evolution stopped.

You can have whatever belief you want, and I can respect an individual without respecting their idea.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27466173 - 09/12/21 10:00 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
... So it is feasible to me to believe that the spirit of a person is that breath of life of a person, and the resurrection is the bodily resurrection of that life and of that body, in another dimension... and that there could be nothing beyond our physical bodies in this dimension/universe.

Or maybe there is a ghost-like spirit within us. I've thought on this a lot, and have talked with many theologians on the subject. I still don't have enough information to make a confident decision on the subject.




.    Of course you have enough information. Even in this life our memories are nothing but a few highlights that we assume are accurate representations, of some hypothetical cohesive story. The idea of this going on eternally (way beyond trillions of years) is simply absurd and preposterous. And without memory ( and/or the unconscious memory of habit patterns) there is nothing to particularize a self.

.    Humans simply don't like contemplating their own insignificance, after all, almost everyone's mother told them, or treated them as if they were "the greatest thing since sliced bread", however our mom's were biased, after all they sacrificed much of their own lives to raise us.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27466377 - 09/13/21 02:35 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

If pain or reflexes are not a part of your consciousness model, I don't think it would reflect my experience, but it's still an interesting insight.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27466407 - 09/13/21 03:57 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

as far as evolution, a theory is not a scientific proof.

in emperical sciences as a whole, there is no such thing as a "proven fact".

as far of out of body experience, or an any anomalous experience, it is important to have a balanced evaluation of the limitations, reliability, and validity of psychological methods to study the experiences and how they may be intergrated into neurobiophysics methods, which also have their limitations.

these kinds of experiences and observations contradict commonsense scientific knowledge, and are inconsistant with prevaling theories and accepted evidence, so that means they should be scientifically disregarded?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27466452 - 09/13/21 05:37 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If pain or reflexes are not a part of your consciousness model, I don't think it would reflect my experience, but it's still an interesting insight.



pain is certainly part of the model as is pleasure, it is not, however, a module or tissue component.

pain receptors are among the sensation feeds, in most cases some spinal reflex already underway - precognitively, and some HPA activation engages at the perception level. When no spinal reflex shock is involved, like tooth or gut pain, there is still alarm/shock and pervasive rapid focus shifting.

The idea of psychic pain fits directly with the associative fabric, often involving the mapping of body tension, a correlate of pain, that occurs in conjunction with mental objects that are part of the disturbing memory. The clenching memory of being forced into slavery, or some other great loss, that you are powerless to have prevented (associative guilt syndromes...).

Pleasure is more complex, not HPA, and rather than sudden muchness, or alarming switching of attention in pain reactions, the salient characteristic of pleasure is harmoniousness that can swell. Sweet tones, counterpoints, beautiful body shapes, gentle warmth, integration of all body systems.

Both become part of memory and associative perception, and pleasure and pain pervade the the 5 minute Short Term Memory context [[[closest analog to ego - temporary persistent selfness]]] of recently activated cortical neurons that are just slightly hyperactive.

An interesting possible correlation could help resolve after-images, with pain and short term memory, but I have not worked that part through completely. After-images are great for motion detection, i.e. just seeing the significant change in a very large scene.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27466550 - 09/13/21 08:01 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
how would you articulate the differences between consciousness and energy?




I wouldn't, I'd just define energy and the pathways it travels. You can say energy, but alone it means nothing. E.g. do you know what different forms of energy there are?

Which form would you refer to in regard to humans etc?

Where does evolution stop and out of body begin?

To say anything is out of body is inherently anti-evolution.

I find it degrading to suggest we're detached from nature, and not a part of it.




distinctions between consciousness and energy, are a division of perception.  all boundaries are only defined by seemingly evident, and approximate and arbitrary confines.  these curtains restrict portions within a system, as well as define discrete systems.

distinctions between the physical from the metaphysical exist bc there is a belief that an apparent separation has been observed.  being given possession of a material frame, that acts as an enclosed pen, does nothing but further this apparent separation.

as human qualities interact with nature through mind, emotion, and intention, patterns become empowered that interact as sync in the overall expression of nature.  this interconnectivity of fields and intentions marries the subtle energies of the body with the quantum.  human intention acts like a typical potential, capable of creating robust effects in physical reality.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27466563 - 09/13/21 08:14 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

any lack of distinctions is fundamentally indistinct.

alien, if your your purpose here is to distract from distinctions which clarify the points we are trying to make in the puddings of our minds, I must ask you to refrain from stirring the details into a muddle of porridge and nonsense.

please be clear and distinct in your meaning, and note:
whitewashing details away does not clarify anything, instead it hides the character of what we are trying to examine.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27466569 - 09/13/21 08:22 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

okay, what part of the nonsense porridge would you like the reciepe for?


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27466623 - 09/13/21 09:35 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

you have to be honest here
you can write honestly and seriously
you can be you


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27466941 - 09/13/21 02:58 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Evolution has literally been observed..

If a theory is not a scientific proof, what is a scientific proof and/or do they even exist?

Again, I think people can claim something out of body if they secede a full view in evolution.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27466973 - 09/13/21 03:29 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Evolution has literally been observed..

If a theory is not a scientific proof, what is a scientific proof and/or do they even exist?

Again, I think people can claim something out of body if they secede a full view in evolution.



I do not understand what you are talking about, probably you have been confused by the alienthatategod.
like talking with a random word generator


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27466989 - 09/13/21 03:45 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Evolution has literally been observed..

If a theory is not a scientific proof, what is a scientific proof and/or do they even exist?

Again, I think people can claim something out of body if they secede a full view in evolution.




I was not speaking about evolution, so will stay out of your conversation with Alien on that.

I just said that one cannot use science to prove or disprove something (a human consciousness outside of the physical human body) that is not testable in repeatable experiments.

Contrasting that, in science, a theory is that of which we are most certain. A hypothesis is something that is up for debate or nullification. In science, we can disprove the null hypothesis, but we cannot "prove" the alternate hypothesis. After extensive (extensive) testing and support, a hypothesis that has floated its way to the top can be called a theory. So to call Evolution by Natural Selection a theory is to give it the most elevated status that an idea can have in the scientific community.

The scientific method has disproven the following statement, "the living human soul weighs 21 grams," but none of the following statements can be disproven using the scientific method:

1. The human soul is made of a 16th dimensional material, intersecting with our 3 dimensional world.
2. The human soul is made entirely of matter in the human body.
3. The human soul is a floating spirit that lives with or without a body.
4. The human soul is just one, and all souls are different versions of the same soul learning to be a god.

Scientists do not talk of "proof." That is the realm of courts and lawyers. Scientists say things like, "the data seem to support," and "the null hypothesis seems to be disproven, but the following tests are required to further support this idea and ensure that no confounding variables were present."

Obviously, all scientists have things that they firmly believe with or without their evidence, but should all speak of beliefs from a neutral position in indifference, and willingness to change positions if the data seem to suggest it is necessary.

Talk about the human soul (an eternal consciousness) as being 100% purely physical versus existing apart from the human body should not be a scary or potentially offensive topic for anyone. Faith (any faith) and science can go hand-in-hand quite well, as long as one does not hold to a scientific belief (such as the old "steady state universe" theory or the "brontosaurus") religiously.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27467030 - 09/13/21 04:17 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Evolution has literally been observed..

If a theory is not a scientific proof, what is a scientific proof and/or do they even exist?

Again, I think people can claim something out of body if they secede a full view in evolution.



I do not understand what you are talking about, probably you have been confused by the alienthatategod.
like talking with a random word generator




what i mean is, there is strong evidence about theories (in this case evolution), but evidence is not proof!

evidence is needed to support a conclusion in the empirical sciences.  evidence could support a false conclusion, but this wouldn't be known until the evidence could be shown to be false....because of other evidence!


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