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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27463066 - 09/10/21 12:35 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

the body's role is twofold
(a) supports the mind and life
(b) feeds input to mind

electric fields and chemical transmitters are fast enough - especially since the transmission rate is multiplied by the number of separate channels (i.e. each incoming nerve fibre is a channel AND each cortical neuron is a channel)

we don't have to cope with all channels firing at once, but in any moment at least a 500,000 are sending through 10 pulses per second or more. and all of them are being linked together as an engram - and all of them are stimulating the next reaction - and what you have been experiencing in the last 5 minutes guides the focus of attention.

it's enough.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27463102 - 09/10/21 01:13 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

i agree in that the body's input writes the minds output, but, the human organism is not a complex chemical-mechanistic machine!

the body’s connective tissues are made of liquid crystal materials that are capable of semiconducton.  the information that travels thru the protein matrix of the body, carries the information without loss, and faster than neurons can relay signals.  it is thru this protein matrix that the sensory bandwidth of consciousness communicates and stores information.  this structured energy is dependent upon body, and it has no meaning without a body connection.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27463112 - 09/10/21 01:25 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

cute, but not true.
yes, any nice jelly will sustain ephapsis (as does the cortex) but without pyramidal cells and the thalamo-cortical pump no memory engrams will form - each of the different tissues of the body do different things, and the brain is where our reconstructive memory operates.

Human beings do not have lossless memory. none of us are like digital storehouses.

if you cut off any part of the body, & if the mind still lives, you will see that no memory is lost, and this has been proven many times in many torture chambers. eventually as the victims lose their fingers ears and toes, arms and legs, they tell what they remember. cutting off body parts does not remove memory, unless it is the head, or a fatal mistake.

you put the cart before the horse again, and I am sure you are doing it on purpose, so, we have to send you to the torture chamber now to test your memory. Let me know what is stored in your left thumb - we start there.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27463737 - 09/11/21 03:23 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

memory is a distributed property.  removal of large portions of the brain for medical reasons can dim a person's memory but never seem to cause a selective loss of particular memories.

somatic recall shows that memory extends beyond the nervous system.  this communication system unifies structure and function.  the cytoplasmic matrix of cells is an extension of connective tissues, and the opposite is also true.  it is a continuous network, whose components are governed by relations with the whole, and it extends through the entire sentient whole.  it’s highly geometrically ordered, and as the order increases, this coherence creates further order from order.  all parts and processes are interconnected, giving rise to semiconduction.

just bc you do not currently have awareness of consciousness that is not neurological, does not mean these alternate information processing schemes do not exist.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27463743 - 09/11/21 03:41 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

You want to over simplify the nervous system and replace it with the word 'energy' to avoid any substantive requirements. Great :thumbup:

Can you please quote your source for somatic recall. I don't see any suggestion of treatment somehow beyond the nervous system.

Quote:

While trauma is a nearly ubiquitous human experience, the manifestations of trauma-induced symptoms vary widely. When the nervous system has become “tuned” (Gellhorn, 1967a) by repeated exposure to long-term stress or trauma, the result is manifest in the symptoms of PTSS. Failure to resolve PTSS can evolve into multiple co-morbidities involving the cognitive, affective, immune, endocrine, muscular, and visceral systems. SE is designed to direct the attention of the person to internal sensations that facilitate biological completion of thwarted responses, thus leading to resolution of the trauma response and the creation of new interoceptive experiences of agency and mastery (Parvizi et al., 2013).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4316402/ ;




The nervous system IS complicated, intertwined and dynamic.

Quote:

Just because you aren't aware that tree leaves are made of gold, it doesn't mean they don't exist.




You've got to hear yourself sometimes.

It sounds like you're just discovering what an action potential is.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27463790 - 09/11/21 05:21 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

how would you articulate the differences between consciousness and energy?

An Anotomical, Biochemical, Biophysical and Quantum Basis for the Unconscious Mind


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27463793 - 09/11/21 05:32 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

that is a fantastic link but it is full of errors in the illustrations and text. the authors offer a service for for profit at their wellness company that is entirely based upon these errors and people pay them for the service.

have you heard of the wonderful products from Gwynneth Paltrow?
same level of insight.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27463852 - 09/11/21 07:17 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

We only know this universe, and this body we seem to inhabit, through our senses, the senses themself included.

I hope good will come of your theory.


--------------------
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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Asante] * 1
    #27463855 - 09/11/21 07:19 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I hope understanding it is possible.
understanding is usually a good thing.
the senses are key, in that way it continues to be a sensible theory.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27463863 - 09/11/21 07:34 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

are you referring to the California Institute of Integral Studies?

can you please point to a specific error in the text that you have identified?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27463890 - 09/11/21 08:06 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

this is an article in the International Journal of Transpersonal Studies.
This is not a science, but it is an intellectual pursuit, which I would equate with reincarnation as a study in modern religions, but not as widely accepted.
Quote:

Processes  to  be 
explored include:
1.  Semiconduction in the fabric of the body known
as the living matrix or ground regulation system.
2.  Biochemical  processes  as  described  by  Dennis 
Bray  in  his  2009  book,  Wetware:  A  computer  in 
every cell.
3.  Various  quantum  processes  including  quantum 
coherence  as  described  by  Herbert  Fröhlich;  spin 
resonance as described by Mae Wan Ho and Emilio
Del Giudice; biophotonic communications as
described  by  Fritz  Albert  Popp  (2000)  and  Marco 
Bischof (1995); and wavelike energy transfer
that  takes  place  in  chloroplasts  of  green  plants  as 
documented by Fleming and colleagues (see Engel et
al., 2007), and conduction pathways in microtubules
(Hameroff, Nip, Porter, & Tuszynski, 2002)




the most credible science in this group is related to  wavelike energy transfer that  takes  place  in  chloroplasts  of  green  plants  as documented by Fleming and colleagues (see Engel et al., 2007), and conduction pathways in microtubules (Hameroff, Nip, Porter, & Tuszynski, 2002)

the others are not science at all.

Figure 2 is entirely erroneous - can you believe that they added a transistor diagram into a child's representation of a neural mass???
it also labels the motor neuron in an extremely simplified diagram as a sensory neuron.
this would make no sense to the reader unless the reader is ignorant of neurology or biology and blindly trusting.

All of the content related to Quantum coherence is bunk - the paper is really very much a compendium of disparate ideas that have not been proven, that do not cohere in any way to show how memories are stored.

it also equates consciousness to awareness or what gets your attention, and delegates everything else to subconscious processing and the leap we are supposed to be in awe of is the things I have quoted above which are ideas that really go nowhere.

That said, a lot more happens at the cellular level than we already know, I totally accept that, and yes microtubules are involved as well as electrical field gradients and waves in all things including embryological development, and I make reference extensively to the ephaptic fields which enable an abstraction of the engram excitation to be used to reawaken memories with similar interference abstractions accross the entire cortex which is the only tissue that has multi-branched pyramidal axons that can hook up engrams into the memories we have.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27463925 - 09/11/21 09:04 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
consciousness is too rapid and subtle to be explained soley by neurological and biochemical processes.

have a body is energetically demanding.  what's the body's role in consciousness?  otherwise, why have a body at all?

human consciousness is an integral part of the human body's self-regulation.




I agree that consciousness is a part of the body's self-regulation. Many animals that lack brains can function well without them, but a brain in general is a wonderful accessory. A consciousness, even more so!

If we extracted a human brain from the body, and suspended it with a sort of agar-like solution coursing through it for oxygen and nourishment, in such a way that it could thrive and grow,... without a doubt that conscious person would go completely bonkers insane. A human can't even stay sane in solitary confinement. I can't imagine consciousness without a body. I think the body encompasses "the senses" but there are also non-cerebral brain-like clusters of neurons governing our digestive systems and many other systems. So, without a doubt, the body is a central part of consciousness.

Even still, can't the body be explained by neurological and biochemical processes?


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27463938 - 09/11/21 09:16 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

"The body" is inherent and in RGV's chart as "the senses"... which are an integral part of consciousness.

To an extent, its the "my father's oldsmobile" paradox. You can remove one part of the car, and it is still the same car. You can remove another part of the car, and it is the same car. Yada yada yada. But at what point does it cease to be the same car? We can dismember a person, until they are a brain floating in some agar-fluid... but at some point they have no senses at all. If the senses are part of the consciousness, at what point in the dismemberment process does it cease to be consciousness?

If I am asleep, I am not conscious because I am not aware of my surroundings. Can I be conscious, then, without my body?


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27464021 - 09/11/21 10:33 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

hopefully we do not need to face such a problem.
however, in the annals of torture and surgical procedures,
evidence points to the fact that everything can be removed, up to the medulla oblongatta, as long as the remaining brain is bathed in a regular supply of clean nourishing, oxygenated blood using the existing vessels.

we already have ways to provide coherent feeds of input to and output from the cortex - so there you have my answer. The input can be verbal, auditory, tactile, visual, balance, contact, and vertigo, and can include the gamut from pleasant, and neutral to extremely painful.

theoretical maybe, I do not believe it has been done with mammals yet...

And why we would do such a thing to anyone?

well, it depends on how polarized the world gets, and who needs what information from whom, and how far beyond waterboarding and threatening they want to go.
a nightmare really.

our line of questioning need not go in such directions.

anyway when you are fully asleep not dreaming then not conscious.
when you are dreaming however you are conscious, but in an extremely resonant state of mind (like stoned) and you are cut off from your body.

to answer your questions imagine dreaming but not being stoned like Alice in Wonderland, it is just drab, you just wait, and then someone sends you signals and you react to that mentally which they can detect.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27464180 - 09/11/21 01:09 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

is consciousness dependent on matter or not?  have you ever had an out of body experience?  an illusion arises when trying to study consciousness at a micro level, bc it is only part and parcel of a greater whole.  an individual has a systemic interconnectedness that is disregarded as the whole living being is analyzed and dissected into increasingly smaller pieces.

current biological and neurological models are mechanistic and reductionist.  the connectivity of molecular biology can not be understood from its current dogmatic reductionist view consisting of strictly linear relationships.  by trying to deconstruct the human being to understand it, the result is a degraded understanding. the body can not be explained in the bits, a hormone does this, an enzyme does this, a neuron does that, because the body is more than the sum of its individual parts, it is not a simple machine.  the molecular machinery of the body is successful at describing inquiries on a limited level, but they should not be given credit for establishing order on every level.

as far as motor neurons, yes, the whole gist of fascial systemic interconnectedness is that there are ways of moving that are completely different from neuromuscular processes.  it is this continuum pathway that acts as a shortcut between sensation and action.  it conducts both information from proprioception and energy to power the muscles.

as far as memory storage, in this model, it is proposed it is stored holographically in the soft tissues.  biophysics is by definition an interdisciplinary line of inquiry.  progress has been slow bc there is a tendency to ignore anomalies, ask the wrong questions, and look for answers in the wong places.  the study of memory dramatizes this point.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27464255 - 09/11/21 02:05 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

if there is any particular question you find more important than the others please ask that, you have a lot of questions that are very disconnected, and tiring to imagine answering in one response.

do you think I have all the answers you need?

maybe you are just trying to test how busy I want to be. I do not want to be busy in case you ask that question. maybe a bit tired, come to think of it. must be time for my medicine.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27464757 - 09/11/21 09:41 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
how would you articulate the differences between consciousness and energy?




I wouldn't, I'd just define energy and the pathways it travels. You can say energy, but alone it means nothing. E.g. do you know what different forms of energy there are?

Which form would you refer to in regard to humans etc?

Where does evolution stop and out of body begin?

To say anything is out of body is inherently anti-evolution.

I find it degrading to suggest we're detached from nature, and not a part of it.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27464920 - 09/12/21 12:32 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
how would you articulate the differences between consciousness and energy?

An Anotomical, Biochemical, Biophysical and Quantum Basis for the Unconscious Mind



Consciouness deals with the energy at hand. So the captive is pure observation..

After that the karmic weighs of the cycle ate presented as rational decimals..

One man has at least a little advantage over the other..

Which therefore predicts virtual allotment..


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #27465105 - 09/12/21 07:27 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

To say anything is out of body is inherently anti-evolution.





More specifically, to say anything is (or is not) out of body is beyond the scope of science.

A statement that nothing exists out of the body (or something exists outside of the body) is inherently a religious statement because it cannot be supported by testable or repeatable experiments.

The only truly scientific answer to that question is: "science cannot yet tell us this." Anything beyond that is purely rhetorical at best.

I defy anyone to provide an explanation of what caused the big bang that does not require blind faith to believe it. Religious conjecture of the nature of the soul and the origin of man is the oldest religious subject of all.

We hold many scientific beliefs, but having those scientific beliefs does not make our unscientific (religious/untestable) beliefs somehow also scientific as well.

But it's OK to have beliefs that are beyond what science can tell us today. Even the most purely scientific among us have some untestable beliefs regarding religious topics. I respect your faith in your own beliefs and/or disbeliefs.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27465154 - 09/12/21 08:03 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

for things like the big bang, I find I am stretching my abilities to look into a lens that has altered rules of light and dimensional continuity or time. It's humbling and invigorating.

as for out of body experiencing, or levitation, or prescience, I am only at the level of guessing how the cards might cut in a game of cribbage with my wife, and that context is amazingly fun, but not portentous, or significant.

That said, i concur with what sudly said with regard to energy and consciousness, if what he meant was: highly organized localized patterns of energy that contextually influence each other is very much an indicator of consciousness, but so far, it seems restricted to the cortex - dependent on the tissues there the generate the patterns, and dependent upon the tissues' abilities to link the energy pattern into meaningful relations with other localized energy patterns, and be influenced contextually by the life of the creature in which the tissue is found. Although I do not think he explicitly said that.

Could bits of such a pulsating energy detach from the brain and enter another object or space time continuum?
well I really have no idea, again it is a stretch for the mind to consider. the same kind of stretch that the big bang ideal seems to require.


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