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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28612998 - 01/07/24 12:50 PM (21 days, 1 hour ago) |
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I think it's more of an assumption to think it's not, given the history of things turning out that way.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28613007 - 01/07/24 01:03 PM (21 days, 50 minutes ago) |
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turning out what way?
I'm more interested in finding the field of possibility than finding one part of that field and trying to believe in it
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28613026 - 01/07/24 01:21 PM (21 days, 33 minutes ago) |
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Things don't usually not have physical origins, none I'm aware of.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28613031 - 01/07/24 01:24 PM (21 days, 30 minutes ago) |
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how could we possibly know? there is nothing outside of our consciousness to validate our theories of physicality. all evidence, all observation, all corroboration occurs within consciousness
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom] 1
#28613034 - 01/07/24 01:25 PM (21 days, 28 minutes ago) |
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and further, consciousness itself is not a thing that can be observed
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28613038 - 01/07/24 01:34 PM (21 days, 19 minutes ago) |
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Maybe that's a question you can live with and grow through.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] 1
#28613051 - 01/07/24 01:49 PM (21 days, 4 minutes ago) |
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what do you mean?
every system of belief is groundless. they all depend on a premise. I have no problem acknowledging or living knowing that.
is there some final answer about the nature of mind or the universe? maybe. I'm surely curious about it all.
its like some people say god created everything. other people say, 'that's absurd, obviously this is an explosion that came out of nothing'
or someone else might say, "oh no, this has always been here, its infintitely old"
I've been wondering and thinking about this at least since I was 5 or so
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28613053 - 01/07/24 01:55 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: you can follow a chain of cuasiation from a photon changing the conformation of retinol all the way to the occipital cortex and you can look at all the controbutions from other brain areas
but there is a gap between the chain of causation in the neural pathways to the expreince of color
As a painter I have to agree that the mysterious power of color which I have frolicked in for thousands of hours, is both primal and intriguing. The power of shapes also is very primal, sensuous even, and the two together - perceived color and perceived shapes - have tremendous fascination for me and probably for everyone, usually people like my paintings which reflect sensuaous fascination. How color and shape suggest form, and how they move through space makes them angels in the pantheon if there is one.
Cognitively color is especially interesting because if you look at a field of color, it may seem to be solid, so it rapidly moves from the sensation of colored dots into something parasensory, solid and unchanging (while the acutality of colroed dots flickering is more real time sensation, the perception is that the color or gradient is not shifting, so it is held stable and not updated between frames) and if you move your eyes, the colored shape is maintained off center in a very stable easy way, expanding the actually viewed foveal and surrounding central area which has fresh color information into a 3-d reconstruction of the world extending up to and beyond the limits of peripheral vision.
We have to also understand that the thing about associative memory formation is that all the sense channels and the perception contents (which are associative reflexes from 1 or 2 (or more if stoned or emotional) tenths of a second ago) mix in the moment into the memory engram - and that is what we are briefly aware of, which is also to say that is consciousness.
Therefore when I look at this screen Which I view using the Shroomery Desert profile or stylesheet, the background has a weird custard mustard color like a roasted chick pea or hummous, surrounding the white area in which I am typing this message.
Several times today I also puzzled over how numinous that color seems, and how that numinosity makes the qualia of visual consciousness so "puzzling" to understand as anything other than magic.
In fact all qualia, which necessarily have a mix of sensory (including gut feelings) and mental connections overlaid and coincident, are in a class that is decidedly not cut and dried, not mechanical, and close to defying all explanation - especially as they are fluidly changing ten times per second, which is way faster than we can describe them or even apprehend what is being viewed succinctly.
There is no separation in mind of what we can be aware of (or remember) from the other channels of mental contents. This essential factor in qualia is what makes discussing and explaining it elusive.
So yes, I am astonished at that mustard custard desert shroomery background I am looking at and how it is linked into my very heart, but also I understand that linkage as the work of associative mind which is my being. I am aware of both the wonder and the fact of being.
To me Hearing is also very amazing, We are detecting cochleal resonance from tiny hairs in a snail shaped resonance tube in our inner ears, but it feels like continuous sounds, and we can tactile wise feel the buzzing vibrations of sounds as well. we do not experience hairs in a tube, we experience sounds and the transitions of sounds which are transduced in the brain from frequency detection amplitudes on a tenth of a second basis changing over time to form notes of music or phonemes of speech.
What is utterly amazing is that the temporal character of sounds become sensory mental content that lasts a second for a half note - half a second for a quarter note etc. depending on time signature. Amazingly the way music is written in measures with time signatures shows an appreciation for what we can distinguish in hearing, and typically (depending on tempo (ie. 60bpm o 120 bpm etc.)) a 64th note is the fastest note that is written and a 32nd note is the fastest that we clearly distinguish before the sound becomes a rumble or a trill which is more of vibrato vibration rather than notation or note of music or particle of hearing. Depending on our waking mental condition the alpha wave provides the sensory discriminating limit, i.e. we cannot be aware of nor can we remember things that proceed faster than the 32nd note. We can train to play in a way that produces faster notes but again we are not in direct connection to those faster notes except by way of having created a movement that is back and forth, usually by training the muscles to do something that in gymnastics always rates as olympic achievements. I digress...
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28613060 - 01/07/24 02:02 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago) |
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In my view there is, and I've articulated what that is, I'm comfortable with my solution. Happy evolving.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28613063 - 01/07/24 02:12 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago) |
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would you be willing to explain that? or point to where you did?
what is outside of your consciousness?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28613066 - 01/07/24 02:22 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago) |
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An ecosystem, and a cat right now.
I said I disagree with consciousness not having a physical origin.
Although specifically I did say,
Quote:
Consciousness, which I term as psychoneural aspects, emerges as a direct outcome of this intricate neurocognitive groundwork. While unique in its characteristics, consciousness, in my view, is entirely explainable through these neurocognitive processes. This perspective aligns with a form of reductionism that fully appreciates the utility of understanding the brain's essential functions in the emergence of consciousness, considering the complexity and the rapid dynamics of these processes.
- - -
It underscores that consciousness, while complex in its nature, is potentially comprehensible within the framework of the brain's physical activities and their cognitive manifestations.
Essentially in my view, the nature of it is that it's just not removed from nature.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28613075 - 01/07/24 02:28 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago) |
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do you have any explanation for the idea?
I get that we all have a model of an external reality. I believe its possible that there is an external reality, but how can we know if its there or not?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28613076 - 01/07/24 02:28 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago) |
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agreed and similarly articulated
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28613093 - 01/07/24 02:40 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: do you have any explanation for the idea?
I get that we all have a model of an external reality. I believe its possible that there is an external reality, but how can we know if its there or not?
If you have a question more specific to an aspect of the idea you're referring to, I can try.
But an explanation for the 'idea', or how we can know if 'it' is there or not aren't clear starting points from my perspective.
If you're asking, "How do we know if external reality is there or not", I would posit that it's a rhetorical question you're asking.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28613105 - 01/07/24 02:47 PM (20 days, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
But an explanation for the 'idea', or how we can know if 'it' is there or not aren't clear starting points from my perspective.
you said, Quote:
Things don't usually not have physical origins, none I'm aware of.
I'm wondering how this is constructed in your mind. Are you just assuming that this is true? If not, what is your reasoning?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28613132 - 01/07/24 03:12 PM (20 days, 22 hours ago) |
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The chain of the history of scientific discovery hasn't as of yet been broken. I have no reason to assume otherwise. Again though, as of yet.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28613134 - 01/07/24 03:14 PM (20 days, 22 hours ago) |
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initially we ourselves were the external reality we became aware of. our model of external reality is wrapped up in our model of ourselves.
when I hear a knock on the door I go answer it. Somebody else then enters the space, a new model unfolds.
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Freedom
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28613137 - 01/07/24 03:16 PM (20 days, 22 hours ago) |
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yes and I have been part of that chain, doing research in virology and neuroscience
however everything I experienced, all the text books i read, all the experiments I performed, all the papers I helped write happened within my consciousness, as far as i can tell.
it may be that these events also happened in some external reality, but how can I know that?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28613155 - 01/07/24 03:29 PM (20 days, 22 hours ago) |
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you can be sure that you are questioning, but you cannot be sure of the answers. at any moment you may wake up from a dream, or not, none of us can say. that is the way.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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i will not
no
i wont
ah fuck it
that is the way
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