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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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I've been exploring the idea that 'information' in the context of brain function and human experience might exist on multiple layers, each contributing uniquely to our understanding of perception and cognition. This exploration stems from my observation that we might not use 'information' in the same way in our respective work. Specifically, I'm considering the distinction between what I term 'neurocognitive information' and 'psychoneural information.'
It appears to me that your work primarily focuses on 'neurocognitive information,' which involves the processes of sensory reception and the intricate neural processing that ensues. This encompasses the initial stages where sensory inputs are transformed into neural signals and how these signals navigate through the brain's neural pathways and regions. My own focus, however, seems to be more oriented towards 'psychoneural information.' This refers to the cognitive interpretation of the processed neurocognitive information, where the neural data is subjectively integrated and understood in the context of individual cognitive and emotional experiences.
Given what I think are our distinct focal points, I'm curious about your viewpoint on this layered approach to information. Do you find the categorisation of information into neurocognitive and psychoneural segments to be a valid and/or useful framework for understanding brain function and human behaviour? Also, have you considered the concept of different layers of information processing in your work, and how might these concepts align or contrast with this idea of neurocognitive and psychoneural information?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28612630 - 01/07/24 06:05 AM (21 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Why call it 'psychoneural'? To me this would imply a much tighter correlation between qaualia or psychelogical experience and neural activity than we have
I would focus on the two sides individually until there is a tight enough correlation to bridge them
Edited by Freedom (01/07/24 06:06 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28612641 - 01/07/24 06:28 AM (21 days, 7 hours ago) |
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what you are calling psycho neural is indeed different in the same sense as molecules are different than atoms however, the basics are the same, and the creation and listing of distinct kinds of extensions of the base cognitive unit "engram" is not limited to 2,3,4, or more aggregation or assembly types of "information"
the linkage between engram contents (sensory and memory fragments in a single mind moment (~1/10th of a second)) is established in the second of 3 basic Cortico-thalamic feed back loops.
the linkage between successive engram contents (enabling chains of mental contents and more complex thinking, movement, speech, and other articulation) is developed in the 3rd of the 3 basic loops in cortico-thalamic feedback supporting the linkage of mental contents with the next mental contents.
All of our articulated movements, trajectory following, and sound recognition are dependent upon the temporal linkages of engrams established in the third C-T pulse (by 1/3 of a second).
language and words are at a meta level such that a sequence of several engrams become familiar at a glance, i.e. 2-200 engrams of a single sequence become known as a single meaning, often a reduction to the last frame of associations in a sequence, flattening the temporal aspect of sequence (clips of mental media), which can be recognized at a glance from any part within the sequence (i.e. creating molecules out of a sequence of atomic experiences).
when a clip or sequence becomes familiar, a subjective "molecular" tokenization encompasses the feeling of the whole clip. It becomes one thing. Language is developed and used in this many moments as one idea mode, that drags and lags behind the moment of sensory experiencing (which out paces the speed of language interpretation and the habitual pace of mental interfacing in our accelerated social lives) yet also becomes part of the content of experiencing. We miss a lot, when we spend our waking hours with multi moment mental tokens, but what we experience can be very complex and interwoven explaining why we become estranged from living in the moment.
I think this meta level of cognition is what you are deeming psycho neural, and nearly all schools of psychology address tokenized mental representation, which can be effectively accessed using language in therapy sessions.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28612644 - 01/07/24 06:35 AM (21 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: Why call it 'psychoneural'? To me this would imply a much tighter correlation between qaualia or psychelogical experience and neural activity than we have
I would focus on the two sides individually until there is a tight enough correlation to bridge them
The focus is on the distinction provided between neurocognitive and psychoneural information.
Quote:
Neurocognition
Neurocognitive functions are cognitive functions closely linked to the function of particular areas, neural pathways, or cortical networks in the brain, ultimately served by the substrate of the brain's neurological matrix.
Quote:
Psychoneural: of or relating to the interrelationship of the nervous system and consciousness : relating to the mental functions of the central nervous system
Where are the mental functions of neurocognition? I don't believe there are any, I think because I lean towards emergent properties.
I find the term 'psychoneural' to imply a tighter correlation than I believe exists between neural activity and conscious experience. I prefer to focus on these two aspects individually until a more concrete and interconnected correlation is established.
It might be two sides of the same coin, but that's still heads and tails to me.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (01/07/24 06:46 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28612718 - 01/07/24 07:46 AM (21 days, 6 hours ago) |
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In the previous post I mentioned the difference between atoms and molecules, both are carried through the same pipes in the same way.
With mental things this may be hard to understand unless you consider that all senses and memory are providing new content on each sensory/cognitive channel ~10 times per second. in binary terms that means that each of ~5 billion circuits are turned on or off ~10 times per second while the apparatus forms memory and generates perceptive reflexes. 5 billion is the bus width of brains which can be viewed as computers to some extent, and ~10hz is the clock speed for the bus to and from memory, while higher speed oscillations occur within six layer cortical columns.
That is the base activity across the board.
At a faster time slice are sensory pre-processing routines (in six layer cortex columns) that eliminate what is not changing among 5 billion inputs (high speed analysis between adjacent columns), these faster events are too fast to get into memory, and basically inform our attention about what is significant at the lowest level.
At slower arbitrary time slices (1/3 to 10 seconds) are the word and gestural animations, including these postings, and most of our living experiences.
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Freedom
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what are you considering a circuit?
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Freedom
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28612727 - 01/07/24 07:55 AM (21 days, 5 hours ago) |
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PMCs?
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28612740 - 01/07/24 08:16 AM (21 days, 5 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: what are you considering a circuit?
a visual feedback circuit for example - capable of forming memory or perception - would be outlined like this 1. retina rod or cone (emitting a spike field at +40uV) -> 2. optic nerve (emitting a spike field at +40uV) -> 3. Neuron in Lat Gen Nucleus of Thalamus (emitting a spike field at +40uV) -> 4. partner cortical neuron in occipital cortex [[surrounded by cortical column astrocytes + glia + pyramidal neurons with branched axons] capable of suppressing activation] which back-propagates charge in dendrites if not suppressed as well as feeding back (emitting a spike field at +40uV) -> 5. to partner Neuron in Lat Gen Nucleus of Thalamus as feedback. [[normal waking consciousness commonly includes 3 cycles of feedback]]
note: in number 4 above - if the feedback sensory circuit is not suppressed, the back propagated charge in the activated neuron (emitting a spike field at +40uV) excites neighboring pyramidal neurons whose branches connect randomly with a fractional charge (approximately 0.004uV) to over 1000 other cortical neurons.
If the other cortical neurons are also active (i.e. in the second of 3 feedback loops), then memory spines are formed at the junction (pyramidal axon branch to cortical neuron dendrite mini-synapse) - otherwise if cortical neurons are resting they can be reactivated (perception) if more than 8 (this number changes as we age) fractional charges are detected at spine locations.
the feedback is 4.5.4.5.4.5. normally, much more if very stoned.
in my Javascript demo, one pixel represents one feedback circuit https://redgreenvines.github.io/reflex/
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Edited by redgreenvines (01/07/24 08:23 AM)
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Freedom
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cool
i've always been able to see amazing Pareidolia in the background noise of the pixels. the more i pay attention to it the more detailed and realistic it gets. Its amazing because what appears there can be different than any art or fantasy I've seen or what I would imagine through trying to imagine.
at times I've had something similar in the auditory channel. like complex amazing music that's like classical music but with instruments I've never heard before.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
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thanks redgreenvines i got it better from that it's like when i was 18 i can't tell you how much that helped it was like a post you made about ayahuasca
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Like with atoms and molecules, I recognise the non-linear relations between different components in complex systems.
From my perspective, neurocognitive processes within the brain are incredibly complex, involving a range of intricate functions such as sensory processing, memory encoding, and neural signaling. These processes, as you've highlighted, involve billions of interactions and rapid information processing, forming a continuously evolving network of interactions that each play a vital role in the brain's overall functioning. I view these neurocognitive activities as foundational elements that give rise to more complex phenomena.
Consciousness, which I term as psychoneural aspects, emerges as a direct outcome of this intricate neurocognitive groundwork. While unique in its characteristics, consciousness, in my view, is entirely explainable through these neurocognitive processes. This perspective aligns with a form of reductionism that fully appreciates the utility of understanding the brain's essential functions in the emergence of consciousness, considering the complexity and the rapid dynamics of these processes.
In drawing an analogy with a star, consider the star’s mass and its nuclear reactions. The mass of the star creates the gravitational force, analogous to how the brain's neurocognitive functions underpin consciousness. The nuclear reactions within the star, which provide energy and counterbalance gravity, are akin to the continuous and dynamic cognitive interpretations that arise from neurocognitive processes. However, unlike gravity, which is an intrinsic property of the star's mass, consciousness, in my perspective, is a phenomenon that can be fully explained by the brain's physical and functional activities. Here, the physical activities are represented as neurocognitive functions, while the functional activities are akin to cognitive interpretations of these neurocognitive functions, emerging as the psychoneural aspects. This analogy highlights that consciousness, much like a star’s gravity, emerges as a fundamental aspect of the brain's functioning. It is a product of the physical neurocognitive functions, akin to the mass of a star, and is shaped by the cognitive interpretations of these functions, similar to the way nuclear reactions within a star provide energy and influence its behaviour. While consciousness is influenced by the ongoing 'reactions' or processes in the brain, it is not solely defined by them. Instead, it emerges as a distinct entity — the psychoneural aspects — resulting from the interplay of the brain's physical activities and their cognitive interpretations.
Therefore, my perspective seeks to appreciate the fundamental neurocognitive processes and also to understand that consciousness, much like the gravitational force of a star, is an intrinsic outcome of these processes. Consciousness, as I see it, is a phenomenon intricately connected to, yet distinct from, the physical neurocognitive functions. It emerges from these functions and their cognitive interpretations, forming a unique and complex characteristic of the brain's activity. This view embraces the intricacy of consciousness as a product of the brain's dynamic interplay, akin to how a star's mass and nuclear reactions collectively define its existence and behaviour. It underscores that consciousness, while complex in its nature, is potentially comprehensible within the framework of the brain's physical activities and their cognitive manifestations.
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Freedom
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] 1
#28612861 - 01/07/24 10:45 AM (21 days, 3 hours ago) |
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'emergence' doesn't get around the 'hard problem'
the emergence in physical and biological phenomenon can be explained
consciousness? we haven't a clue. there is a gap that I can't see how to cross. we can correlate neural phenomena with qualia, but how do we connect them?
The emergent properties of other systems don't have gaps.
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28612896 - 01/07/24 11:09 AM (21 days, 2 hours ago) |
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OK so a star may have many processes in it, but it does not have a sustained structure with extremely fine increments rigidly positioned like the delicate brain.
when you say Quote:
neurocognitive processes within the brain are incredibly complex, involving a range of intricate functions such as sensory processing, memory encoding, and neural signaling
the concepts are are not more complex than interconnected cortical columns having feedback with the thalamus to produce the basic continuum of sensation and perception and memory formation where permitted by the cortical column signal edits (mostly filtering for changes, based upon quick calculations including recent neighbor column states). So it is not that complex, but it is very very densely packed.
There are a few more basic things happening such as
- the cerebellum producing timing circuits for a range of detectable cadences from 20hz to circadian and possibly monthly cycles.
- The HPA axis flight or fight conditions, and the Hippocampal mood machinery conditions, all of which have various impacts on the functioning of the basic associative memory and perception system, producing what we are familiar with as:
- resonant states of mind (emotions, trances, psychedelics, manias)
- greater or lesser short term memory (inversely related with resonant states - i.e. less short term memory with increased C-T loop duration beyond 3 feedback cycles)
- which ties into the greater or lesser ability to tether the mind to tasks by the tendency of recently active neurons to be reactivated at lower thresholds.
These is all part of the neural framework encompassing experiencing, memory formation, and access to memory via perceptive reflexes.
The range of psycho-neural extensions of this basic psycho-cognitive base is basically endless - based upon personality, culture, health etc. which is like the habits or routines of the person supported by the neural framework.
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28612906 - 01/07/24 11:14 AM (21 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: 'emergence' doesn't get around the 'hard problem'
the emergence in physical and biological phenomenon can be explained
consciousness? we haven't a clue. there is a gap that I can't see how to cross. we can correlate neural phenomena with qualia, but how do we connect them?
The emergent properties of other systems don't have gaps.
I see no gap at all. that colors have feelings associated with them is the basics of everything, it's all about associated engram contents, and reflex perceptions evoked naturally in contexts, and things that do not change disappearing from our awareness (aka consciousness) If you can be sensitive to mental contents sifting ~10 times per second you are on the crest of the wave of consciousness.
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Freedom
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what creates color? dancing ions?
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Freedom
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28612924 - 01/07/24 11:37 AM (21 days, 2 hours ago) |
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you can follow a chain of cuasiation from a photon changing the conformation of retinol all the way to the occipital cortex and you can look at all the controbutions from other brain areas
but there is a gap between the chain of causation in the neural pathways to the expreince of color
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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In context I could just say, while we can dissect neurocognitive processes to understand the brain's basic functions, the emergent psychoneural aspects are more complicated then. And since neurocognitive function covers all the brain architecture mentioned.
If your description implies that basic brain functions serve as the foundation upon which more directed or sustained focus, complex thoughts, emotions, and states of consciousness are built then these higher-level phenomena can be considered the psychoneural aspects I'm referring to.
And then the question becomes, where do you draw the line between what is considered consciousness and what isn't? Because personally, I view consciousness as a spectrum, a kind of inherent potential for growth in all humans, and many animals, especially if recursion is looked at from a broader context to include anticipation and understanding of cause and effect, because then a wider breadthe of species are considered to have consciousness, like a male bower bird building a bower in anticipation of a mate, showcasing an understanding of cause and effect.
Maybe the question really should be, to what extent should we lower the bar to consider an organism as impregnated by consciousness?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (01/07/24 12:06 PM)
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Freedom
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28612949 - 01/07/24 12:09 PM (21 days, 1 hour ago) |
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i think there is an assumption there that consciousness is created.
it may be that there is something like a field of consciousness, and that the movement of ions perturbs that conscious ness in ways that create changes in that consciousness. that the feed back loops and physical patterns are there to create patterns in the consciousness
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Freedom]
#28612953 - 01/07/24 12:13 PM (21 days, 1 hour ago) |
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I have no problem with the idea of consciousness being an inherent potential of all organisms. I think it grows, not that it's necessarily created.
I think referring to fields of ions has the assumption of undiscovered fundamental forces.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Freedom
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28612971 - 01/07/24 12:29 PM (21 days, 1 hour ago) |
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I don't see consciousness as having any degrees. Either I'm conscious or not. That consciousness can be of simple forms or complex forms, yet that capacity to be aware is not lesser or greater because of the forms
yeah I wouldn't assume there is a field of consciousness. Its the hypothosis my mind comes up with when looking for consciousness having physical origin, which is also an assumption
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