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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28421588 - 08/05/23 09:04 AM (5 months, 21 days ago)

I could do that. Sorry in advance  but I'm gonna leave one last tome of a post explaining myself and I'll stay away unless I have something specific about your idea to say at the level of description you're attending to. I just don't understand the resistance. Much of what is proposed there maps right into your hypotheses, it just describes them at a different level.

Quote:

In short, according to IIT, consciousness requires a grouping of elements within a system that have physical cause-effect power upon one another. This in turn implies that only reentrant architecture consisting of feedback loops, whether neural or computational, will realize consciousness. Such groupings make a difference to themselves, not just to outside observers. This constitutes integrated information. Of the various groupings within a system that possess such causal power, one will do so maximally. This local maximum of integrated information is identical to consciousness.




so the main Loop you want to talk about is the CT feedback loop. Their concept of coupling is explained by what you call ephaptic feedback. Their 'maximum' maps onto your pyramidal neuron mechanism corresponding to engram formation and persistence. And you say the CT loop has three basic procedures/functions, perception, attention, and emotional valence. But isn't it true that each of those components likely has at least three sub components that likely also have 'smaller loops'? And so on?

To me it looks like loops all the way up and down.  From electron orbitals to superclusters of galaxies everything is going around in a loop and the smallest loops are connected to the biggest loops and the biggest loops are connected to the smallest leaves but the strength of the connection is smaller as the scale changes so that one atom has almost no effect on the total state of the system but the total state of the system, minus one electron, can completely determine the state of that electron.

Furthermore what would you say is traveling through these loops? Electricity? 'Energy'? Charged chemicals or particles? It's all of them ... And/or none? But people want brain explanations in at least one of these terms usually, so it shouldn't surprise you when people try to cross reference what they already think they know against what youre trying to convince them of. I prefer to think of it as information in the formal sense, and to think in terms of signal:noise and morphology (isomorphism etc). I hope you don't think that anyone doing applying information Theory to questions in biology or philosophy of mind is just 'doing it because it's hip'. Not trying to be mean, I know I am a dilettante- but you sound like a 35-year-career cardiologist who thinks new residents only consult nephrology because they're trying to be lazy... No. It's because they are trying to break the cycle of cardiologists creating kidney disease by haphazardly giving heart disease drugs and nephrologists from giving people heart disease by haphazardly giving people kidney drugs which has been the state of things since basically forever.

That people started trying to map concepts from computer engineering and information theory onto brains as soon as they saw the computers could do something that formerly only brains could do in the 1940s and still haven't experimentally demonstrated that the 'objects and relations' exist just puts them right alongside every other physicist because there's this thing called gravity and they've known about that for like five centuries and still don't know whether it even actually exists. Gravitons? Quantum loops? The reason that they can calculate the position or velocity of a particle out to 14 digits now is specifically because of what information theorist enabled us to do with computers. It's just that it took 75 years for the computational power to scale up to the point where thinking about and trying to test these kinds of theories wasn't a waste of energy anymore. But any physicist will tell you that being able to calculate that out to 14 digits reflects nothing about an improved understanding of physics. The equations are exactly the same as they were in the 20s it's just that we can perform very large computations now using transistors


Last week I was basically trying to give somebody a neurochemistry 101 lesson about how membranes and receptors and ion channels work and his response was "dude stop trying to sound smart. it's all just electricity going through your brain" and I had to explain to him that I was in fact just elaborating on what it means to say that "it's all electricity going through your brain" because my explanation included information about particle charges and polarization across membranes, which is 'where the electricity is' when you're describing it in chemical terms. Describing it in that way does not mean that describing it at the level of anatomy- keeping in mind that the boundary distinctions we make between regions of the brain are basically arbitrary and always becoming 'grainier'- is wrong. Facts/theories/models from astrophysics are deployed to strengthen evidence for claims in geology/chemistry/quantum physics, and vice versa. Information theory just an abstraction intended to capture/derive the 'signal' you'd get from describing it at a lower level- without invoking as many assumptions or formally defining as many interrelated concepts/elements.

Anyway, I have found your model very helpful and whenever I have a related idea, however tangential, I try to see how much sense it makes in light of your model. Whether or not anything like quantum entanglement is involved 'computation' (isomorphic information transmutation), I hope you will agree that the distribution of charge across a membrane corresponds to the distribution of ions, and that the charge of each ion corresponds to its relative number of electrons and protons, whose behavior can be 'sufficiently modeled for our purposes' but whose fundamental qualities remain a central contention among scientists who think&talk about them. We don't have to figure out a universal model of physics in order to accept your model.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28421641 - 08/05/23 09:49 AM (5 months, 21 days ago)

actually the CT loop has one function with some side effects.
the one function is to keep a signal active longer than a single pulse, so that the synchronous events elsewhere in the brain may be connected, and it takes time for the connecting circuits to engage.

the primary effect of keeping the activation going is that the activated cortical neuron remains active while the ensuing activated pyramidal axon branches from around the cortex have time arrive enabling two things: A. create a memory protein spine at an active cortical neuron mini-synapse if one is not already at that junction (forming associative memory), and B. collaborate with several active pyramidal neuron branches to reactivate associated resting neurons - (i.e. the perceptive reflex, recalling the memory engram)

The valences (positive and negative aka pleasure and pain) relate to emotional factors which are content. not part of the loop per se. Generally speaking when familiarity is continuous, with a positive valence, dopamine is released and a change in resonant state of mind  will occur that extends the duration of the C-T loop beyond 3 pulses causing other effects. An unanswered question related to valence might be:

"does the Frontal cortex detect the sustained familiarity (i.e. a preponerance of perceptive engagement) and reflexively activate mid-brain structures to release dopamine???" I think it does do that.

This does not mean that there are not many other significant events happening within and between neurons themselves that are also interesting.

The ones I am most interested in are the ones that make a neuron more easy to activate, and the kinds of interaction that suppress activation - both to the degree that reflexive perception is engaged.

I do not look inside the neuron to find memory or consciousness, instead I look at it as the important base element in memory and perception.


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28421979 - 08/05/23 03:06 PM (5 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

actually the CT loop has one function with some side effects.



I was referring to what you said here:
Quote:


These 3 are the basic spotlight like processes that provide the background neurology for our reflexive perceptions.





But for example this article describes a number of different feedback loops between midbrain and cortical structures that aggregate to create the net transmission of information between cortex and thalamus. For example, as you know, the striatum is generally subdivided into 2 major subregions, dorsal (further divided into caudate and putamen) and ventral (usually called the nucleus accumbens [which in turn is divided into two tracts, shell to limbic system and core to motor cortex]). There are feedback loops using interneurons within specific tracts as well. I think it's fair to say all of the functions accomplished by the components of the composite 'CT tract' are 'functions of the CT tract', and also fair to say that the unique function of the 'maximum' concept in IIT maps onto the 'one function' you're referring to.

Is this what you mean by 'memory protein spine'?:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35580729/

I've never heard the term 'mini-synapse' before. Is this the sense in which you mean it?

Quote:


"does the Frontal cortex detect the sustained familiarity (i.e. a preponerance of perceptive engagement) and reflexively activate mid-brain structures to release dopamine???" I think it does do that.


I was taught that it definitely does so. This is why drug addicts often begin to start feeling/acting 'rewarded' before even using drugs simply by thinking about the certainty that they WILL use them soon

Quote:


The ones I am most interested in are the ones that make a neuron more easy to activate, and the kinds of interaction that suppress activation - both to the degree that reflexive perception is engaged.


there's already a well-elucidated mechanism that seems sufficient to explain your 'sustained reactivation of pyramidal neurons': ions and ion channels.

Quote:


I do not look inside the neuron to find memory or consciousness, instead I look at it as the important base element in memory and perception.




I don't look inside the neuron to find it either.  I look both inside and outside. hypotheses drawing from only one or the other amounts to intentionally limiting how much inductive evidence you can do deductive reasoning with.

Calcium seemingly mediates most information transmission in our brains- bc it is the most abundant mineral in the body and carries a less stable valence shell than potassium or sodium, and similarly charged (+2) cations are far less abundant- by converting the analog signal of a wave amplitude corresponding to the voltage contained within a set of transmitted ions into the digital signal of an action potential. much of the calcium is 'sequestered' by phosphate, whether it's inside or outside of the neuron, and can ionize and move in or out of the cell on an 'as needed' basis whenever there is a shift away from resting potential


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28422124 - 08/05/23 05:26 PM (5 months, 20 days ago)

yes, the ARC  protein is the dendritic spine protein mentioned in all those articles

and yes some of the C-T loop is fragmented or staged but still is a C-T loop

the charge from a single pyramidal axon branch is between 1/1000th and 1/100000th of a full axon signal charge but it is sufficient to cause the formation of a spine when it connects to a back propagating dendritic tree filament.

later this mini-synapse will not be sufficient to activate a resting cortical neuron, but several will be enough, and in the JavaScript program you can experiment to see what happens with different numbers set.

Quote:

morrowasted said:

Quote:


The ones I am most interested in are the ones that make a neuron more easy to activate, and the kinds of interaction that suppress activation - both to the degree that reflexive perception is engaged.


there's already a well-elucidated mechanism that seems sufficient to explain your 'sustained reactivation of pyramidal neurons': ions and ion channels.





please appreciate I am talking about an architecture for memory and perception with consistency in  an effort to describe a wide range of related effects in perception, as relates to C-T loop duration, and how neurons may become more or less responsive to a lesser signal in the loop wiring. Back in 1974 we called this feedback tetany but that word went out of use. It is a pulse train with decreasing amplitude until it is too weak to continue to trigger the feedback.

I do not have all of the details related to neuron metabolism but I do know that they become exhausted if made to  loop too long and crap out, but if they loop briefly, then while resting, these recently activated cortical neurons are easier to reactivate. I am sure there is an ion based metabolic explanation for that. You may find it. But this in particular corresponds with both short term memory and with working memory concepts, but there is no specific memory in them if you know what I mean - they are just temporarily easier to activate. Nevertheless this behavior is extremely relevant to the stream of consciousness, and the sense of what we are up to.


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28422664 - 08/06/23 02:19 AM (5 months, 20 days ago)

Do as you will. I like to use (what I hope is) the correct gist/core elements of your diagram as a foundation whenever I am looking into the anatomy/architecture/function of a brain region or circuit and connect it to your elements according the information I find. I also find it helpful to juxtapose it against ad diagram of some microscale systems which also both are and have 'feedback loops' or 'equilibrium vectors'.



You can generate infinite research proposals using higher level phenomena (ie electromagnetic field) to falsify hypotheses in lower level phenomena, this is how a researcher who truly wants to know what is true rather than parade his pet theory to the exclusion of all else designs experiments: I'm going to throw everything I can at this hypothesis and try to prove it false.

I believe net information flow from bottom up exceeds net top down flow, but that this can be flipped by some people, usually not permanently but perhaps, so that the 'maximum' determines lower scale states from the top down. Maybe something related to your idea of how many CT loops are involved in various states. Like if ketamine is blocking half of the voltage/ions then the striatum/midbrain relays  only has half as much information to work with. Accumulating sufficient voltage for sensory-perceptual synchrony as well as formation or maintenance of a given engram requires more loops because each has a smaller signal strength. None of this requires thinking about quantum physics. Physical chemistry is sufficiently low level




Self reference is a special kind of feedback loop. If you're not familiar with Douglas Hofstadter you should check out his book I am a Strange Loop,.I bet you'd find it agreeable


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28422681 - 08/06/23 03:45 AM (5 months, 20 days ago)

your diagram looks very similar to many I have made in the past,
And I will check out the strange loop book.


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28422849 - 08/06/23 09:29 AM (5 months, 20 days ago)

enjoying I am a strange loop... could take a while to get back to you on it, several books on the go, but this one hooks me.

edit, the introduction was OK but by page 200, I am too weary of how Hofstadler writes.

It could be that our insights are convergent, but his are hidden in huge collection of words - I have no patience for him to get to the point.



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Edited by redgreenvines (08/06/23 07:37 PM)


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28424229 - 08/07/23 11:33 AM (5 months, 19 days ago)

I understand. He is rigorous in his logic. The ironic part of that, which I'm sure he mentions, is that I am a strange loop is itself a condensed version of another book he wrote called Godel Escher Bach, for which he won a Pulitzer prize. But that book is like almost 2,000 pages long and even more tedious.


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28424260 - 08/07/23 12:04 PM (5 months, 19 days ago)

I suspect most people get bogged down because he insists on going step by step through Godels proof. But I think that is intentional. It would be one thing to simply tell readers that this proof exists and try to convince them of its implications. But that would create room for doubt that becomes essentially impossible if you truly understand the proof. Accepting everything else about self reference/contradiction hinges around accepting the proof, which is easy to not do if you know about it, but seemingly impossible to do if you KNOW IT- otherwise someone would have shown why it doesnt work. It has been a century

Btw my diagram looks like many of yours bc I ripped off the core elements from the one you made lol.


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28424326 - 08/07/23 01:11 PM (5 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
...
Btw my diagram looks like many of yours bc I ripped off the core elements from the one you made lol.



flattered, hahah

I had trouble with GEB too. long time ago. was hoping he had changed.
I did like what DH wrote as a teenager however, even if he did edit it later for exposure.


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28424360 - 08/07/23 01:51 PM (5 months, 19 days ago)

At 17-19* I actually read it all the way up to the part about molecular biology and DNA and speculation about artificial intelligence since the book was already decades old by the time I had read it and some of his conjectures had already been falsified.

He made the mistake of just going on and on in GEB. That unfortunately has inhibited its core truth(s) from spreading as virally as they otherwise might have. I often make the same mistake

* Yes it took me almost 2 years to get through as much of it as I did 🤣


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28424370 - 08/07/23 02:02 PM (5 months, 19 days ago)

I fed a whole bunch of the jargon from this thread as a prompt into the new mid journey XL AI image generator (technically I asked somebody else to do it because I don't have access) and this is what it spat out lol



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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28424379 - 08/07/23 02:06 PM (5 months, 19 days ago)

I need to keep things simple or I don't understand them the next day or the next hour.
flashes of brilliance are very intermittent.
and still I'm long winded.

i.e. associative memory from synchronous activation, and reactivation of memory from likeness of some of mental contents as the perceptive reflex is the core.
Then add in recent activation as a positive handicap, and the variance in C-T feedback loops for resonant states of mind, and you are very close to the nub of the brain and consciousness altogether except for what is peculiar in sensory post processing [six layer cortex]  and timing [cerebellum].

after the core it's still too long...
oh well, we must learn to be patient.


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28424403 - 08/07/23 02:28 PM (5 months, 19 days ago)

Ran the prompt "Prime 2^2 + 3^2 + 5^2 + 7^2 + 11^2 + 13^2 + 17^2 Mover" using prior image a base with 28% strength and got this :mindblown::kingtard:




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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28424643 - 08/07/23 05:48 PM (5 months, 18 days ago)

it's a helicopitigraph


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28424765 - 08/07/23 06:58 PM (5 months, 18 days ago)

I love when you neologize

“There is more wisdom in your body than in your deepest philosophy.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28611852 - 01/06/24 03:19 PM (21 days, 22 hours ago)

What role do deliberative responses play in your schema? And do you delineate them from reflective responses?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28612003 - 01/06/24 05:11 PM (21 days, 20 hours ago)

Hey Sudly;
I think the term reflection is a good one for the perceptive response at a glance, and most of the traffic among mental contents is reflection upon sensation, mixed with current reflection already.
It's pretty continuous while awake and dreaming.

deliberative responses are reflections that are tethered to a theme that a person sets for themselves, but it can be triggered from the context, and it is the same reflective process with extra effort made to keep the same theme going.

Use is made of the short term memory (working memory) which basically favors reflection on topic.
some symolic versions of it are how we arrange our table (representing the mental contents)
like the magician card, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magician_(tarot_card)

or tying a bow on your finger to bring you back to the idea

sitting meditation is a form of cultivated deliberative response, tethered to the practice for a period of time.

the incessant flow of perception can be steered by various techniques that bind us to a task or central theme


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28612081 - 01/06/24 06:22 PM (21 days, 19 hours ago)

If we're describing reflective and deliberative responses as fluid yet distinct, it reminds me of the difference between skills and problem solving. Where reflective responses are like skills, automatic, developed over time, used almost instinctively, reflexively. While deliberative responses resemble problem solving, where a more directed effort and sustained focus are used, to tackle problems by applying our skills in a focused way maybe.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28612405 - 01/06/24 10:20 PM (21 days, 15 hours ago)

you solve problems by tethering the mind to the pressing question.
hundreds of relevant reflections occur every minute as you circle and cannot escape the pressing issue to which you are tethered, until finally you just rest or something of value comes out of the effort, or you become distracted.

Deliberation is a matter of going over the things you put on the table, the inspired reflections keep happening - it is always changing because the mind suppresses what is not moving. deliberation becomes like stirring a pot over a flame. It can be with words or just in following the breath.

all of mental contents are contextual sensations and reflections (aka perceptive reflexes) from A to Z which includes those that are deliberative or tethered, those that are meditative without words, and those that are untethered streams of consciousness while navigating through the world.


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