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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28387952 - 07/07/23 05:00 AM (6 months, 19 days ago)

What do you think happens to people in comas who have obe’s?

Maybe they are partially coming out of the coma during brief moments similarly to the anesthesia becoming ineffective?


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #28387956 - 07/07/23 05:09 AM (6 months, 19 days ago)

I have a feeling it is related to the papers on default 3D space and white matter connectome posted previously. Interested to hear his pov though. The job of an anesthesiologist is quite frankly to bring your body to the brink of death and maintain it there. Could be being at the brink of death itself results in these OBEs. I had one when I overdosed on opioids (long time ago). Versed simply doesn't memory wipe as well for some folks. Could be a lot of people under anesthesia have OBEs but very few remember them due to the versed. Propofol is poorly understood and they try to avoid it for surgery as much as possible lately; saw it more in the ER for emergency intubated pts


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: cubedryeguy] * 1
    #28387996 - 07/07/23 05:55 AM (6 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

cubedryeguy said:
What do you think happens to people in comas who have obe’s?

Maybe they are partially coming out of the coma during brief moments similarly to the anesthesia becoming ineffective?



exactly.
during the coma the lack of alpha or theta waves (C-T loops) means no memory is being formed, nothing to be aware of.


The OBE experience is partially created as you emerge from deep sleep or anaesthesia, into a dream, the rest falls into place during the subsequent excitement, and even more may get made up in conversation - and no-one can respectfully refute the patient's claim, so these get recorded and made into "evidence".


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OfflineNeurotech
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28392320 - 07/11/23 10:34 AM (6 months, 15 days ago)

Not disagreeing here. But how do you explain anesthetitized patients able to recall specific events in the OR that were subsequently verified by the medical team present?


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: Neurotech] * 1
    #28392417 - 07/11/23 12:37 PM (6 months, 15 days ago)

the shite -not rgv- amateur answer:

Memory is formed before or after the fact, not during - not if sufficiently put under - but upon breaking the anesthetic threshold on the way out from under and up toward conscious awareness, the brain rapidly consolidates whatever bits and pieces there are available plus the then coming-to yet likely still very fritzy short term memory to give an impression of how things might have possibly been like while under - but, if it happens, that's more like simulacra, iirc.  No original, but a fake gets created, and then it's mistaken as true recollection of events, etc, etc. 

Not to mention in certain cases when anesthesia is involved you can often glimpse patients cycle in and out of hypnopompic & hypnagogic states prone to vividly real hallucination, often with their immediate surroundings during the experience as the direct setting & the set being whatever it was before going under.  So, it's not too much a stretch for our brain to come up with something sort of close to what could've potentially happened under such circumstances, especially if already knowing bits about the procedure, the OR room, and the med practitioners involved would've likely been knowns, and said knowing happened before totally losing consciousness anyways.  Additionally, it's not like all parts of the brain shut down at the same rate, or even that all parts shut equally down, nor necessarily at matching intervals etc, etc.

The various timing of things fluxing out of normal bounds of operation wrt brain structures and back again from the varying levels of medicines active at differing sites in the brain & not while always constant rates, plus the chance connections being formed at random from having gone through a near literal reboot, and as mentioned - not everything in the body waking up at the exact time - is partially what's responsible for any potential dreamy hallucingenic experiences had before and or while coming-back-to 'normal'.  eek :goat:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: Neurotech]
    #28392437 - 07/11/23 01:05 PM (6 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Neurotech said:
Not disagreeing here. But how do you explain anesthetitized patients able to recall specific events in the OR that were subsequently verified by the medical team present?



I think I agree with The Blind Ass
Often there is a fluctuation in the anaesthetic effect, and the anaesthetist may notice early or later, so that they compensate with the flow of drug. This gives an opportunity for the patient to go into REM sleep and even begin to surface into waking, but usually that is suppressed.
Personally I do remember seeing the lights at some odd angle and nothing more from one of my earlier OR events (appendectomy at 11 yrs old).


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28392462 - 07/11/23 01:31 PM (6 months, 15 days ago)

I was told I was given a drug to prevent me remembering what happened beforehand to reduce trauma or something but there was a guy with very wide eyes I remember.

I then remember waking up in an ambulance for a few seconds, then a few days later in the ICU. There's only about 30 mins of memory that isn't there, obviously nothing from the great sleep.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28392507 - 07/11/23 02:04 PM (6 months, 15 days ago)

amnesia producing drugs are sedatives, but must be given in advance of a difficult experience like surgery.
and sometimes they give beta blockers after trauma to reduce the anxiety around those memories,
the difficult memories will still exist but do not cause intense emotion to the same degree.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28392687 - 07/11/23 04:52 PM (6 months, 14 days ago)

I don't have any intense emotions regarding the entire experience from before, to the delirium or after.

I still remember the delirium as vividly as it happened yesterday, but after one such experience I told the nurse I was okay with what happened and she just nodded.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28393143 - 07/12/23 05:15 AM (6 months, 14 days ago)

so did they give you beta blockers?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28393518 - 07/12/23 01:04 PM (6 months, 14 days ago)

Not that im aware of, although I've used them in the past for panic attacks many years ago, nowadays I'm not fazed by much.       

Now that I think about it, it's almost like a trip, and I haven't had a bad one of those and have been calm throughout.

So maybe that experience passed over some.


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Offlineepilectric
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28399450 - 07/18/23 07:15 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

i dig your new pic too but liked the floaty vibe of the last one :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: epilectric]
    #28399451 - 07/18/23 07:23 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

it's my original pic from 2004


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OfflineLion
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28399490 - 07/18/23 08:28 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it's my original pic from 2004



it just feels right


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Offlineepilectric
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28399508 - 07/18/23 08:53 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it's my original pic from 2004




ohh nice


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28399593 - 07/18/23 10:30 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it's my original pic from 2004




really nice redgreenvines
it's some of the best art ive seen
my favorite! :laugh:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28421260 - 08/05/23 12:02 AM (5 months, 21 days ago)

I read this and thought it might be similar to what you were trying to do with your Java script.

Quote:

Rule A: successful synaptic events enhance the transmission efficacy of the synapse.

Rule B: transmission failures such as presynaptic firing without postsynaptic firing, and possibly also 'failures' of the inverse type, i.e., postsynaptic without presynaptic firing, depress synaptic activity.
Both types of plastic change become effective within a few milliseconds....

Short-term plasticity is restricted to a small range of strengths: the absolute value of the strength saturates after a small number of similar events. In case of successful transmission, it reaches a maximal level. In case of failures, it settles at a minimum.... Short-term plasticity lets connectivity and activity evolve on the same time scale, leading to the notion of a joint activity-and-connectivity state. It is proposed that the events which underlie brain function are best described by such compound states.... Traditional Hebbian synaptic modifications are assumed to give rise to slow, long term temporal integration of correlations over very long times. The short term effects operate using very short term correlations. Von der Malsburg and Bienenstock go on to show that activity-andconnectivity states give rise to attractor dynamics, similar in spirit to those we have seen in other contexts in this situation.

Crick draws on the prediction that these short term synaptic effects allow for the formation of flexible, somewhat transient representations of information determined by both the sensory inputs and the structure of long term memory. This notion is embedded in a number of specific suggestions about how the brain might realize such a system and how it might be used psychologically. The general implication for the field is that effects occurring at short time scales may be very important and perhaps can be analyzed by some of the same techniques used in learning models that assume much longer time scales. There is the hope that all these ideas can be brought together (as the brain does it!) in one neatly fitting package.
Reference
C. von der Malsburg and E. Bienenstock (1986), "Statistical coding and short term synaptic plasticity: a scheme for knowledge representation in the brain," Disordered Systems and Biological Organization, E. Bienenstock, F. Fogelman Soulié, and G. Weisbuch (Eds.), Berlin: Springer.




Have you heard of, or do you have any thoughts on Malsburg Synapses and the searchlight hypothesis?

Quote:

Malsburg Synapse: A Malsburg synapse, proposed by Christoph von der Malsburg, refers to a type of neural connection in the brain. It's suggested that these synapses help neurons fire together in coordinated groups known as "cell assemblies."

Searchlight Mechanism: The searchlight mechanism is a hypothetical concept proposed to explain how the brain focuses attention on specific features or concepts. It's like an attentional spotlight that moves rapidly across different regions while keeping the eyes fixed, helping the brain gather information about what it's searching for.

Relation Between Malsburg Synapse and Searchlight Mechanism:
The idea is that Malsburg synapses are activated by the searchlight mechanism. When the searchlight focuses on a particular feature or concept, it activates specific Malsburg synapses, which then lead to the neurons firing together in coordinated cell assemblies. This synchronized firing helps the brain process and perceive the relevant information more effectively. In other words, the searchlight mechanism controls the activation of Malsburg synapses, which in turn contributes to the formation of cell assemblies that aid in attention and perception.




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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28421332 - 08/05/23 02:43 AM (5 months, 21 days ago)

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/


As regards quantum physics, there can be no reasonable doubt that quantum events occur and are efficacious in the brain as elsewhere in the material world—including biological systems.[1] But it is controversial whether these events are efficacious and relevant for those aspects of brain activity that are correlated with mental activity.



Examples for non-trivial quantum effects in biological systems are: coherent excitations of biomolecules, quantum tunneling of protons, van der Waals forces, ultrafast dynamics through conical intersections, photon-assisted electron tunneling as the basis for smell, entangled states in photosynthesis, mechanisms for magnetoreception in the avian compass. For a competent review of these examples and more see Huelga and Plenio (2013).


https://iep.utm.edu/integrated-information-theory-of-consciousness/


what do you think about IIT, RGV?

In short, according to IIT, consciousness requires a grouping of elements within a system that have physical cause-effect power upon one another. This in turn implies that only reentrant architecture consisting of feedback loops, whether neural or computational, will realize consciousness. Such groupings make a difference to themselves, not just to outside observers. This constitutes integrated information. Of the various groupings within a system that possess such causal power, one will do so maximally. This local maximum of integrated information is identical to consciousness.





thinking in terms of 'information', in the information theory sense, is getting more intuitive for me. whenever i am trying to describe what happens with neurons I sometimes find myself struggling to pick the right word at any given moment. whether you think of what happens as electricity, which isnt hardly even "a thing" (although electromagnetic force seems to be) or ions doesnt matter; it is two sides of the same coin. if you can sufficiently model a system at a specific scale, modeling it at smaller scales is superfluous. the labels are all just labels with arrows pointing between/among them in a web anyway. if your labels allow for 99% reliable predictions about some phenomenon, they're effective labels, that's all.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28421405 - 08/05/23 05:17 AM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I read this and thought it might be similar to what you were trying to do with your Java script.

Quote:

Rule A: successful synaptic events enhance the transmission efficacy of the synapse.

Rule B: transmission failures such as presynaptic firing without postsynaptic firing, and possibly also 'failures' of the inverse type, i.e., postsynaptic without presynaptic firing, depress synaptic activity.
Both types of plastic change become effective within a few milliseconds....

Short-term plasticity is restricted to a small range of strengths: the absolute value of the strength saturates after a small number of similar events. In case of successful transmission, it reaches a maximal level. In case of failures, it settles at a minimum.... Short-term plasticity lets connectivity and activity evolve on the same time scale, leading to the notion of a joint activity-and-connectivity state. It is proposed that the events which underlie brain function are best described by such compound states.... Traditional Hebbian synaptic modifications are assumed to give rise to slow, long term temporal integration of correlations over very long times. The short term effects operate using very short term correlations. Von der Malsburg and Bienenstock go on to show that activity-andconnectivity states give rise to attractor dynamics, similar in spirit to those we have seen in other contexts in this situation.

Crick draws on the prediction that these short term synaptic effects allow for the formation of flexible, somewhat transient representations of information determined by both the sensory inputs and the structure of long term memory. This notion is embedded in a number of specific suggestions about how the brain might realize such a system and how it might be used psychologically. The general implication for the field is that effects occurring at short time scales may be very important and perhaps can be analyzed by some of the same techniques used in learning models that assume much longer time scales. There is the hope that all these ideas can be brought together (as the brain does it!) in one neatly fitting package.
Reference
C. von der Malsburg and E. Bienenstock (1986), "Statistical coding and short term synaptic plasticity: a scheme for knowledge representation in the brain," Disordered Systems and Biological Organization, E. Bienenstock, F. Fogelman Soulié, and G. Weisbuch (Eds.), Berlin: Springer.




Have you heard of, or do you have any thoughts on Malsburg Synapses and the searchlight hypothesis?

Quote:

Malsburg Synapse: A Malsburg synapse, proposed by Christoph von der Malsburg, refers to a type of neural connection in the brain. It's suggested that these synapses help neurons fire together in coordinated groups known as "cell assemblies."

Searchlight Mechanism: The searchlight mechanism is a hypothetical concept proposed to explain how the brain focuses attention on specific features or concepts. It's like an attentional spotlight that moves rapidly across different regions while keeping the eyes fixed, helping the brain gather information about what it's searching for.

Relation Between Malsburg Synapse and Searchlight Mechanism:
The idea is that Malsburg synapses are activated by the searchlight mechanism. When the searchlight focuses on a particular feature or concept, it activates specific Malsburg synapses, which then lead to the neurons firing together in coordinated cell assemblies. This synchronized firing helps the brain process and perceive the relevant information more effectively. In other words, the searchlight mechanism controls the activation of Malsburg synapses, which in turn contributes to the formation of cell assemblies that aid in attention and perception.






the first quote above has a lot to do with the "bioelectronics" of the six layer cortex which I see as sensory signal preprocessing: i.e. movement detection (comparing subsequent frames and adjacent pixels (voxels)), and extensive curve and trajectory processing in temporal cortex and parietal, enabling the sense of musical and linguistic elements as well as coordinated body movements.
After preprocessing (which is way faster than 1/10th of a second) the active cortical neurons represent current mental content, and the system I describe and demonstrate in JavaScript created the interlinked assembly (engram) by interconnecting all the "synchronously" active cortical neurons [by forming spines at contact points with activated pyramidal axon branchlets]

I think the Malzburg suggestion is not realistic.
synchronous firing for associative memory formation and perception means synchronous within 1/20th of a second, that's 50 milliseconds of leeway. It does not require marshalling to create synchrony for any purpose.

Hunting for a spotlight i.e. an attentional hook is a red herring.

Attention is a result of noticing change by (6-layer cortex stifles unchanging signals) suppressing memory formation and awarenss of what is not changing.

Also we readily obtain perception, or familiarity emerges more easily, for recently active mental content.

Moreover, emotional valence response makes associated content last longer than 3 coretico-thalamic loops. promoting recycling the signals associated with positive or negative experiences.

These 3 are the basic spotlight like processes that provide the background neurology for our reflexive perceptions.

The brain can also suppress top down perception (the meaning of things) to better favor bottom up (fresh) sensation, and it can do it selectively under frontal lobe (associative) manipulation of the hypothalamus acting upon pieces of the thalamus with GABA-ergic suppression of feedback from the cortex.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28421413 - 08/05/23 05:31 AM (5 months, 21 days ago)

@morrowwasted,
the concepts in https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/ are incoherent to me and they hinge on the erroneous belief that the mind is being steered by a discorporeal being (an homunculus or spirit or soul) that has intentions and needs to influence the brain and meat of the body to perform actions.

I put no intense thought on that very sizeable area of research, because I see that the foundation of it is imaginary.

also IIT does not work for me either. I see it as researchers taking advantage of the financial opportunity to promote projects and get funding in fashionable research areas, IIT is definitely fashionable and closely related to AI and Quantum computing.

Both of the links you provided are 90% related to fashionable research, areas that support news blurbs, and tie into the bleeding edge of cybernetics which has been linked to Neuroscience since the late 1940's.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/10738584231179932

Why do you not make up a separate discussion thread about these things if you think there is a good reason to promote the ideas further?


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