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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386551 - 07/05/23 11:52 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

That doesn't really make sense, how can something be outside the scope of scientific frameworks if it isn't yet proven to be outside of it?


because you don't need science to prove anything. Proof is..  logic. Science uses logic.... When it's acting in good faith...


But logic doesn't need science.

Have you looked up Godel incompleteness?

If you don't have any education in formal logic it could be hard to follow the specifics and if that's the case for you then you may want to read a book by a man named Douglas Hofstadter called "I AM a Strange Loop". He won the first Pulitzer prize for composite fiction and nonfiction writing when he published godel Escher bach much earlier, but he expand3d on the idea so densely and at such length that very few people could even finish it much less really appreciate it


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386552 - 07/05/23 11:54 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Then why believe in a hard problem


because there's been so many people who have asked it.

You're basically in a position right now where you either say that every single person who is ever acted like a hard problem of consciousness existed was delusional. If you want to do that then you have to explain what was making them delusional and how.

The alternative is that you actually explain it. Actually explaining it would involve creating a predictive model in the same way that we have predictive models about where the Earth will be relative to the sun tomorrow to such a great degree of accuracy that anything we might want to do would not be affected by whatever lack of accuracy remains




If you think people can have the same experience, why do you believe there is a hard problem?

People being able to have the same experience does explain it.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28386553 - 07/05/23 11:56 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

If you think people can have the same experience, why do you believe there is a hard problem?


I feel like you're being really obtuse, I'm not going to lie. I don't feel like you're dumb but this is not complicated to me

Green is green

One is one




Consciousness is whatever it is that allows green to be green and one to be one

Now you tell me what that thing is

Because both physicists and mathematicians have been trying to explain how green is green and one is one for a long time and both have run up against a wall. The wall you can call consciousness or whatever you want but the wall is there. It's not clear that green can exist at all independently of something we don't understand yet


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386555 - 07/05/23 11:58 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Green is green if you don't believe in a hard problem..

Green is a reflection of the light objects that don't absorb green light reflect.

Even if someone is colorblind, other people with the same type of colourblindness would arguably experience it the same way.

Colourblind or not, they're processing the same light either way.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28386556 - 07/05/23 11:59 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Green is green if you don't believe in a hard problem..



Green is green by definition




Yshshhd is yshshhd by definition

Define any fucking thing you want to mean anything you wanted to mean. Now prove it exists. Good luck. I'm not lying when I say I have studied everything there is to be studied about formal logic because formal logic stopped getting studied exactly when I keep saying it did

How does a photo receptor work? Because I know how rods and cones work and I know how some of them pick up on what we call wavelengths.



Where that becomes the experience of green is the hard problem. You can either try to act like it isn't there or that anybody who's ever asked it was just caught up in circular logic but either way you've not convincingly done either


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386558 - 07/06/23 12:00 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
If I don't feel like learning og Hebrew is too much trouble than maybe I'll try learning something actually difficult like one of the north scandanvian languages


The more I learn about language the more I'm convinced that either a remnant of an ancient and almost entirely demolished civilization with a different notation system existed or that there were some kind of intervention, whether you want to call it Divine or alien or interdimensional or whatever




Well, I mean that certainly might be one of the possibilities, sure.  On the other hand I can see entirely much too much wiggle room about it for the worms of evolution, mutagenics, and even psychedelics to a lesser extent being entirely capable of that.

What you're talking about sounds more what I might think if learning about a language as opposed to learning a language for use to widen who scope of people possible to communicate with that share the same planet as us, and whatever else might come of that.

Also - in order to see what perceptual differences might emerge from the usage of any  particular language distinctly different from that of another in so far as determining linguistic etiology can be inferred via its actual usage.


@ sudz:

I don't really believe in hard problems like that,
but I do know of many hard headed people who would tend to disagree with me on that subject as well.  Ha!  :cheers:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386560 - 07/06/23 12:04 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Green is green if you don't believe in a hard problem..



Green is green by definition




Yshshhd is yshshhd by definition

Define any fucking thing you want to mean anything you wanted to mean. Now prove it exists. Good luck. I'm not lying when I say I have studied everything there is to be studied about formal logic because formal logic stopped getting studied exactly when I keep saying it did

How does a photo receptor work? Because I know how rods and cones work and I know how some of them pick up on what we call wavelengths.



Where that becomes the experience of green is the hard problem. You can either try to act like it isn't there or that anybody who's ever asked it was just caught up in circular logic but either way you've not convincingly done either




Green is green by the wavelength of light an object reflects. We could call it a different name but it'd be the same wavelength regardless.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28386563 - 07/06/23 12:08 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

talking about sounds more what I might think if learning about a language as opposed to learning a language for use in order to see what perceptual differences might emerge from any distinct particular language in so far as linguistic etiology can be inferred via its actual usage.




no you're actually pointed at exactly the question. Clearly infants have a almost universal tendency to produce the m and n consonants first and the long a (ah);and e (Eh).  Therefore it's not surprising that you end up with some variation of mahmeh for mom and mehmag for moms mom.


But far more fundamentally it seems there's something that's not understood about why measurements show the discrepancies that they do and that the best we can do is measurement in waveform, which is how we measure vowel phonology

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13799192_Role_of_Fundamental_Frequency_Differences_in_the_Perceptual_Separation_of_Competing_Vowel_Sounds_by_Listeners_With_Normal_Hearing_and_Listeners_With_Hearing_Loss


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386566 - 07/06/23 12:09 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Green is green by the wavelength of light an object reflects. We could call it a different name but it'd be the same wavelength regardless.


I take it you don't speak any other languages? Are you aware that the color blue didn't exist in the oldest Greek? Or rather if anybody who spoke Greek experience the color blue they had no way of representing it to one another?

You're trying very hard and I think that you might be better off spending your time just learning some things instead of trying to poke and prod in the way you are doing. I don't mean to be condescending but I think once you've learned some more things about linguistics and math and physics and biology and so forth the more it will become increasingly clear why the hard problem is not as soft as you seem to think


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28386568 - 07/06/23 12:11 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Exactly.

And, in two manners of speaking:

'outside' of Mind,
not do colors exist, hrnn.

:yoda2:

And, to synergize with the above and add to the question of if two people can have the same experience?

The Mind itself is what is shared, and ubiquitously so, mateys. 

:manofapproval:


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28386569 - 07/06/23 12:12 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:


The experience of Mind itself is what is shared, and ubiquitously so, mateys


if that's what you believe then you are stating that you believe there is a hard problem of consciousness and that you are a duelist. I am very much leaning towards dualism the more I learn, as are more and more of the greatest polymaths of the present. Nobody wants to do it but everybody's trying to escape it and nobody can. Many people like RGV can limit their scope in order to act like there is no such thing. Oh, "quantum effects don't apply to the brain even though everything the brain is made of is either particles or it isn't and every time we do a new study we show that these quantum effects play crucial roles in every living system but...." Okay, man. I'm sure you're a terrific psychiatrist and you've come up with some great ideas but don't try to act like you know why people who see a hard problem and consciousness see it and you don't


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386570 - 07/06/23 12:14 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Not necessarily so, but it would seem you've been set up to see it as such like that right now, so by all means, have at it.  :shrug:

I'll wait patiently until you've come around to notice no true bounds can be had for long.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386571 - 07/06/23 12:14 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Green is green by the wavelength of light an object reflects. We could call it a different name but it'd be the same wavelength regardless.


I take it you don't speak any other languages? Are you aware that the color blue didn't exist in the oldest Greek? Or rather if anybody who spoke Greek experience the color blue they had no way of representing it to one another?

You're trying very hard and I think that you might be better off spending your time just learning some things instead of trying to poke and prod in the way you are doing. I don't mean to be condescending but I think once you've learned some more things about linguistics and math and physics and biology and so forth the more it will become increasingly clear why the hard problem is not as soft as you seem to think




Are you aware that the wavelength of blue light hasn't changed since the beginning of humanity? 

That again, we could call it a different name, but it'd be the same wavelength regardless.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28386573 - 07/06/23 12:15 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

:booooom:


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28386574 - 07/06/23 12:17 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Are you aware that the wavelength of blue light hasn't changed since the beginning of humanity?

That again, we could call it a different name, but it'd be the same wavelength regardless.



the wavelength of light is parameterized in terms of whichever unit of time we choose to chunk. Max Planck showed that space is likely chunkable but nobody has ever shown that time is chunkable in this way.


Please pause. I've posted a whole lot of links to videos and references to texts. Some of them are made by obscure people and some of them are made by the most acclaimed polymaths of the last 500 years


You're probably neither one and neither am I, even though apparently I'm learning Greek more than twice as fast as the next person who's trying to learn Greek on the most popular language learning app in the world

I'm teaching myself set theory just because I want truth. What I monetize I feel like I don't need to know much more about. Broken bones and infections and surgery and medicine are pretty simple compared to what I'm trying to think about. I keep a job that allows me to have 5 days off to do a lot of work that I don't get paid for on purpose


Edited by morrowasted (07/06/23 12:22 AM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28386578 - 07/06/23 12:21 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Appealing to authority over that which can be known true to all like being awake first thing in the morning itself?

C'mon Morrow.

You're making this harder on yourself.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28386579 - 07/06/23 12:24 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Appealing to authority over that which can be known true to all like being awake for the first thing in the morning itself?

C'mon Morrow.

You're making this harder on yourself.



I wouldn't need to appeal to authority if anyone here were willing to follow me through the formal logic

I don't mean to be condescending but I just don't get the sense that anybody I'm talking to has studied it because if they had then it would have been obvious already. I can't find a single person who I know has themselves proved the incompleteness of formal logic on their own who doesn't see the hard problem for what it is. I don't know Daniel dennett and I don't know what his deal is but he's gotten very old and...  Well.... Old brains seem to inevitably regress if the body doesn't die before the signs show....

If you want me to spend a lot of time creating a formal logic argument I could do it but I have serious doubts that anyone could produce a formal contradiction because any of the arguments I could produce have already been produced and much smarter people have already tried to produce formal contradictions and failed over and over

You can call people with the ability to recognize patterns more quickly than average authorities if you want to. Some of them may be. Some of them may mostly be authorities by luck and or virtue of birth into wealth. In my own case mostly the former in a little bit of the latter. Nevertheless I have more authority than most people, whether other people like it or not. If you don't believe me just get sick and need more help then you know how to give yourself


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386580 - 07/06/23 12:26 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Are you aware that the wavelength of blue light hasn't changed since the beginning of humanity?

That again, we could call it a different name, but it'd be the same wavelength regardless.



the wavelength of light is parameterized in terms of whichever unit of time we choose to chunk. Max Planck showed that space is likely chunkable but nobody has ever shown that time is chunkable in this way.


Please pause. I've posted a whole lot of links to videos and references to texts. Some of them are made by obscure people and some of them are made by the most acclaimed polymaths of the last 500 years


You're probably neither one and neither am I, even though apparently I'm learning Greek more than twice as fast as the next person who's trying to learn Greek on the most popular language learning app in the world

I'm teaching myself set theory to just because I want truth. What I monetize I feel like I don't need to know much more about. Broken bones and infections and surgery and medicine are pretty simple compared to what I'm trying to think about




Light is described in terms of wavelength, wavelengths that haven't changed since whenever and however light came to be.

The words, classifications or descriptions we use for those wavelengths don't change what the wavelength is.

You could call sulfur phlogiston, it wouldn't change its chemical or mineral makeup.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386583 - 07/06/23 12:29 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said: Broken bones and infections and surgery and medicine are pretty simple compared to what I'm trying to think about.



:rasta:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28386584 - 07/06/23 12:33 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Well, it would appear our friend's logic here is suffering from a case of the hiccups, and no not just the "I hadn't considered I hadn't considered everything yet" hiccups of logic we occasionally see through here.  Nay,  rather this was a more insidious form logic hiccups, "intractable" the sufferer claimed while beating his fists in exasperation over having tried countless remedies to no avail - despite literally even a dumb blind ass being able to know the better of it.

:bongload:


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