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Invisibleredgreenvines
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RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics * 5
    #27446374 - 08/28/21 01:23 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I often get into little discussions with people about what I think consciousness is or is not, and how the brain and the mind are one thing, and how sensation is input and perception is everything else, and how memory engrams are constantly being formed as sets of all the activated Primary Cortical Neurons which are complete combinations of Sensation and Perception (everything else), that become more cohesive accessible associative memories through repetition.

Accordingly I made up the chart below which arranges the non-exclusive lists of ideas in a way that can work for a lifetime providing animal or human consciousness.



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Edited by redgreenvines (05/30/23 08:37 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27447462 - 08/29/21 07:22 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

smaller file



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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27448533 - 08/29/21 06:22 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Kinda seems like a homunculus map to me.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #27448695 - 08/29/21 08:41 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

that's the part that you have to provide yourself - actually there is an homunculus aspect to sensation and motor neurons in the cerebral cortex, but no internal homunculus that makes decisions, or expresses will.

all of what happens in the brain is either sensation or  associative perceptive reflexes or chain of such perceptive reflexes which in turn affect the mental contents to which further reflexes happen.


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Edited by redgreenvines (05/30/23 08:46 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27448942 - 08/30/21 03:37 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)



Quote:

The thalamocortical neurons receive sensory or motor information from the rest of the body and present selected information via nerve fibres (thalamocortical radiations) to the cerebral cortex

It now appears certain that the hypothalamus influences the cerebral cortex through the intermediary of certain principal nuclei of the thalamus which project on to focal areas of the cortex

https://www.google.com/search?q=cerebral+cortex+hypothalamus&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU906AU907&oq=cerebral+cortex+to+hyp&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i22i30l4.4695j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

From the study, it is found that the hypothalamus is the key area for the integration of forebrain control of autonomic and endocrine function with ongoing behaviour and emotional state.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079612300260056





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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27449012 - 08/30/21 06:15 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly true, however the radiation of fibres to the cortex involves pairs of axons, because each axon going 'up' to a primary cortical neuron also has a sister one going back 'down' to the same thalamic neuron from the excited PCN - this provides feedback(A).

The hypothalamus and other basal ganglia enable selective suppression controls, which I marked in red (B)  in the diagram. (these are an optional associative response class in the order of perceptions.) without this we would not be able to focus.

My chart is about the key functions in consciousness, and is only somewhat anatomical.

Central to it all is the feedback (A) between thalamic neurons and primary cortical neurons. except where inhibited by the example you mentioned (B), this pumps energy to the cortex generating localized ephaptic fields around the PCN's, which rhythmically spread as waves to intersect, creating interference peaks that excite multi-branched pyramidal cells (C) that link together all the currently pumping PCN's into an engram that can later be recalled in the perception process.

Anatomically speaking, most of the white matter in the brain is comprised of the widely reaching linkage axon branches of pyramidal neurons, most of the rest is largely the feedback wiring between thalamus and cortex (A).


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27449538 - 08/30/21 01:23 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subthalamic_nucleus
this article has an interesting illustration with red arrows referring to inhibitory GABAergic pathways.

finding the suppression effectors is something we do as babies, while also finding our other abilities, like moving hands, biting, swallowing, turning our heads.

the wiring exists, but has to be latched into learned habits by repetition (especially in different contexts which increase the accessibility of the memory engram).

Initially is is like restlessness, and pretty random, but once we get the hang of it, we begin to think like people, with shifting awareness, beginning with the kicking in the womb.


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Edited by redgreenvines (05/30/23 10:13 PM)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27450079 - 08/30/21 08:14 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Observation happens first then we judge what we see.. That judgement is our perception..

Talk about filter. As in things are filtered in our judgement.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27450083 - 08/30/21 08:15 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Things filtered through the observer perhaps?

That observation is the filter itself..

I wonder if there are any other filters in the brain,body chemical system and the mind?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #27450109 - 08/30/21 08:48 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Observation happens first then we judge what we see.. That judgement is our perception..

Talk about filter. As in things are filtered in our judgement.



way faster than that
the vision event occurs in the eye
then thalamo-cortical feedback starts and the image event is registering in the cortex
then perception begins
and if not crowded out by anything else,
associations, being the perception, unfold; and as one associated thing can lead to another, some perceptions are ideas or words or complete personalities, whatever - it is a mental reflex.

judgment is an arbitrary sequence from an arbitrary attitude, that is entirely an accumulation of associations. it could happen or not. it could be your reflex or not.

the filtering you are writing about is also an arbitrary associative perception sequence/reflex.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #27450121 - 08/30/21 08:57 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Things filtered through the observer perhaps?

That observation is the filter itself..

I wonder if there are any other filters in the brain,body chemical system and the mind?



this is a interesting angle on short term memory, which could be called an observer, since it hangs around as excess reactivity for 5 minutes, but it is not actually conscious; it was the active set of primary cortical neurons, but has stopped feedback and generating fields, but it is still a set of slightly excited neurons that hyper react when electrified by a pyramidal axon branchlet.
and if it reacts it restarts the ephapsis.
it's a potential self, that winds up hogging the stage, because it was relevant. It soon is upstaged by the next significantly relevant perception group.

no judgment at all, it's reflex.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27450207 - 08/30/21 10:17 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Wow but I think we need to draw a line between reactions that you could not have helped vs actually making choices with determined effects..


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27450451 - 08/31/21 05:00 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Wow but I think we need to draw a line between reactions that you could not have helped vs actually making choices with determined effects..



why do you think there could be a difference?
reactions are reactions, but reactions made while pausing and taking time to feel your way, do seem to be more "deliberate" or "will-like", but what they really are is more democratically derived from more moments of being your self (selves) while facing the need to select a course of action.

this diagram has no place for  ego, no place for will, no need of subconscious, just the process of consciousness.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27451280 - 08/31/21 05:34 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I have looked at the chart several times and have yet to digest anything in a way that might suggest I understand your idea's here.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27451338 - 08/31/21 06:14 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

thank you for trying, sorry it does not have meaning for you, did you study biology?
this chart requires some understanding of neuron types and the general design of the nervous system which is not depicted anatomically.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27451339 - 08/31/21 06:15 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I often get into little discussions with people about what I think consciousness is or is not, ....]




.  A funny thing about consciousness is that it depends upon itself. Not to be conscious that one is conscious, is in a sense not to be conscious. This is an aspect of dreaming, where there is some consciousness, but it is, what we might call, a deluded consciousness, as the self in a dream, often does not correspond to what the self ordinarily takes itself to be.

.  In the case of driving a car we take ourselves to be conscious, and making decisions based on free will. However we now know that a self driving car can do the same thing (on a simple highway, not necessarily in busy inner city, where kids play in the streets). So we see that much of driving is actually dictated by (constantly changing) environmental conditions, and that the sense, of being free on the open road, and making conscious decisions, may not be as straight forward as we take it to be.

.  Quite possibly this works as a metaphor for much of life, as much of our behavior is habitual, or in other words, it has been delegated by 'the mind', to run as an automatic routine, in the interests of efficiency.

.  When we learned to write, getting every letter right was a task. Now we don't even think about it, instead we think about what we want to write. So it seems, consciousness is not a unified process, that is equally distributed, so to speak.

.  Another example is the illusion that happens when we watch a movie, that is really nothing but a series of still images, yet we take it to be, a complete depiction of reality.
.  This is compounded, by the fact that movies are edited to make the action keep flowing, and all the boring parts, are (usually, or often) cut out. Yet the average movie goer becomes involved in emotions and is not conscious of the work done in the editing room.
.  This is even more obvious in comics and graphic novels, but the same thing happens in our own dreams.

.  So in summary, it seems to me that consciousness is not a unified process, that is equally distributed, so to speak, but is a complex of functions and narratives, that functions like the eye of a hurricane, to organize an organism, in a way that promotes survival, but does not really have any inherent reality, anymore than an 'I' does. But a sense of self is projected, just like an illusory avatar, to allow the game to have direction, for a while.
.  So it seems one could even say with some justification, that the function of consciousness, is to create the illusion, that a provisional self, is both (more) conscious, and more substantial than it is.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27451393 - 08/31/21 06:49 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:...
.  So in summary, it seems to me that consciousness is not a unified process, that is equally distributed, so to speak, but is a complex of functions and narratives, that functions like the eye of a hurricane, to organize an organism, in a way that promotes survival, but does not really have any inherent reality, anymore than an 'I' does. But a sense of self is projected, just like an illusory avatar, to allow the game to have direction, for a while.
.  So it seems one could even say with some justification, that the function of consciousness, is to create the illusion, that a provisional self, is both (more) conscious, and more substantial than it is.




early in this comment (unquoted) you mention driving a car, writing letters then words, and watching a movie as well as this last bit about creating an illusion of a provisional self.

this list of learned routines and abilities could go on for ten thousand pages and still not be exhausted.

I do not approach the question of consciousness by looking for purpose, but by looking at what is happening in the mind, and in the brain.

as to consciousness itself, I think of it as the crucible in which sensation blends with perception and memory formation into one process in one tissue.

whether you are aware that you are driving, or you are driving and thinking of other things or involved in a conversation with a passenger, all are activities that can co-exist in your consciousness while you manage the responsibility of piloting the vehicle which you have become accustomed to doing with ease.

reading this is something you do with ease.

to learn to read one goes through the process of discovering the sounds of letters, the shapes of letters, how they combine to make words, how to form them and how to recognize them at different sizes, fonts, script, and eventually reading books and out loud, etc.

each thing that is learned involves memory, not the awareness of memory specifically, but the fact that it is there and has associated other mental objects with  it.

in the simplest case the letter A is associated with the classroom where it was learned and later practised, it is associated with the sound, it makes and later with lists of A-words.

by the time you are very old at maybe 100 years of age, your associations with the letter A number in the billions.

the situation that you are in governs how you perceive the letter A, and what you are currently engaged in also affects the set of associations that are perceived or pulled out of memory into the mix that is consciousness.

consciousness is both how the associations are formed, and how they are perceived as well as the continuous sensory feed from the world and the currently resonating mental objects that have been forming and their imprint in short term memory as well.

In the way I am looking at things, all learned things (basically any memory that has formed - i.e. engrams) become revived in consciousness in the process of perception, which evokes synthetic mental objects that are
a) most salient to the circumstances being sensed through the body.
b) most consistent to the other mental forms currently resonating in mind.
c) connected in any way with what is in short term memory (mental contents from the last 5 minutes.

Perception can be brief and simple, an idea, or a word, or  sequenced, like a poem a song or full body reactions, like driving a car. Perceptions are the Output of the cerebral cortex.

I know it seems odd to call a complex action or performance a perception, but it is more realistically an orchestration of many perceptions in a living flux of many impressions.

That is the granularity that I use when I look at the mind. and when I say that to the mind, there is hardly any difference between sensation, memory or perception.

When you discuss the model of self towards the end of your comment, you are getting at some fairly complex mental object construction. I believe we all do play with these mental dolls that we make of ourselves and of others, and sometimes do not distinguish between how that play goes in our minds and what is really happening on the planet surface.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27451497 - 08/31/21 08:22 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
thank you for trying, sorry it does not have meaning for you, did you study biology?
this chart requires some understanding of neuron types and the general design of the nervous system which is not depicted anatomically.




Minimally.  I was more into philosophy, psych, sociology etc.  Although if we are talking about school then I wouldn't say I studied anything rigorously or w/ much degree of urgency.  It's just the truth.  I mean I got the degrees and all that but nobody would accuse me of being a scholar.  I am currently more intentional when it comes to learning now that I am a little older and am able to parse specific niche topics.  However I am not sure the hard sciences are going to be a thing.  Probably some Jungian psychology eventually who knows.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27451742 - 09/01/21 02:58 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I'm a fan of this analogy:thumbup:

Quote:

So in summary, it seems to me that consciousness is not a unified process, that is equally distributed, so to speak, but is a complex of functions and narratives, that functions like the eye of a hurricane, to organize an organism, in a way that promotes survival,




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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27451743 - 09/01/21 03:05 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Do you really think that toddlers have mastered the art of engaging with their suppression effector?

The contextual inhibitions that empower us to be in control of the situations we find ourselves in.


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